Health Care Costs and US Manufacturing

[Boatdrinks]

Then there well be plenty of places for smart people like you to move to. See ya.

 

Then there "well" (sic) be places?Aren't they already there? I am pretty smart, though. As you alluded to.

[Magox]

Hey Magox.. Nice try, but where did I say I wasn't happy with MY health care? Before you put words in my mouth, try reading the post. And why have a profit margin for an insurance company at all? Those companies you mentioned, by the way I've mostly never heard of, but they must be pretty well managed. I don't believe a government run entity would pay millions to a CEO, though. And why, if all health insurance runs on such a slim profit margin(allegedly), do their annual increases outpace inflation by so much? Yes the quality of care we get here is good. The health care PROVIDERS are not the problem. The problem is a cottage industry leaching off society. I don't give a crap if you are a Dem or Repub or whatever. The facts are the facts and we can't run away from it. Costs keep going up as set by the insurance industry so they can profit. Compensation,(wages) if you haven't noticed is going down in real dollars. Companies no longer wish to participate, and are passing more and more of the costs to employees. Only slightly more than half of companies now offer health insurance to their workers. If we do nothing (which apparently you wish to do), the status quo continues and eats up more and more of employees compensation. Companies will continue to drop coverage. What is your answer? "Do nothing, most people are happy with their health CARE" Right, because they are getting CARE. Ask them if they are happy with the COST of their insurance, however and I think you'll get a different response. I like my care, but I can envision a day when it isn't there, or when the cost is so exorbitant that it is unaffordable. Fortunately I am a government employee, my coverage is probably better than yours. But I know doing nothing is not an option. It's not political at all. Just facts.

You never heard of Humana, Aetna, Wellpoint? Where the hell have you been?

 

You said they are making ridiculous profits? I proved to you that they are not.

 

Who said we should do nothing? Who the Hell suggested that we should do nothing?? Talk about putting words in peoples mouths. I just pointed out the fallacies that you claimed.

 

I have discussed at ad nauseum in how to bring down costs over the past 3 months.

 

And who care's that an executive makes a couple million? That is a strawman populist argument that has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER in the BOTTOMLINE OF HEALTH CARE COSTS!!! Let me make this clear again, EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION HAS NO BEARING WHATSOEVER in the BOTTOMLINE OF HEALTH CARE COSTS!!

 

Yes Health Insurance is rising more rapid than the rate of inflation, but are you suggesting that the "Evil, greedy" insurance companies are pocketing that money? If so, then refer back to the profit margin numbers.

 

If you want to know why costs are skyrocketing, then take a look at this study done by WELLPOINT, (which was done before the W.H and congress had demonized them) http://www.wellpoint.com/pdf/Premium%20Cost%20Drivers.pdf

 

The study is very informative, it breaks it down, using charts and graphs. If you really do care about Health Care, then educate yourself. I urge you to read it. When you look into it, you'll see where the costs are coming from.

[Alaska Darin]

Ha HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Boy is that an original response." See Ya..."like you OWN the F**kin' country or something.

I'm not sure how you get "I own the country". If you think some other place is paradise because they do something ludicrous, then you ought to head over there and try it for yourself. I've lived all over the world - pretty much nothing is the way it's reported but that doesn't stop people like you from trumpeting it from Mount High as if it was the gospel itself.

As it is impossible to think that perhaps something in the good ol' US of A might be wrong. "you don't like it..err well ,uh, uh, you..you MOVE or something yeah! Yeah, that's it , you that don't agree just get the hell outta here or or or else something... Deep thinker there...bunghole

Oh, I think the U.S. is wrong - just like the rest of the world. I also have absolutely no doubt that if the government gets more involved with health care it'll get even more expensive and the quality will fall proportionately - and I'll be proven correct in very short order.

 

I'll let you know the minute one of your insults registers.

[pBills]

I just laugh because the dems have their plan, their ideas and no one else is putting anything else out there. If the GOP as smart they would take Obama on his word and throw a legitimate idea on the table. If it's proven to be better and will lower costs then they look great in the public eye.

[Magox]

I just laugh because the dems have their plan, their ideas and no one else is putting anything else out there. If the GOP as smart they would take Obama on his word and throw a legitimate idea on the table. If it's proven to be better and will lower costs then they look great in the public eye.

That's not true PBills, I hear it just about every day, their are plenty of senators and house representatives that have given their proposals to the W.H and Congress, but none of them are taken seriously.

 

1) Tort Reform

2) Intrastate competition

3) Tax breaks for individuals on their plans

 

These are some of the things that are being proposed, but if the doors are closed, which they are, then bipartisanship can't be done. It's just that you hear the liberals say the same thing over and over, "the GOP has no plan", when that simply isn't true.

 

However, the GOP should get some of the senators together, and craft a proposal and make it extremely Public, that they have a plan. Ask all the News Networks that they would like to unveil their proposal, send letters to the W.H and make it public, this should be the route that they take. They simply havn't done enough to publicize their proposals and that is the problem, which is the perception of them not having a plan, and sadly, perception is becoming a reality.

[Boatdrinks]

That's not true PBills, I hear it just about every day, their are plenty of senators and house representatives that have given their proposals to the W.H and Congress, but none of them are taken seriously.

 

1) Tort Reform

2) Intrastate competition

3) Tax breaks for individuals on their plans.

 

 

Unfortunately these ideas do nothing to guarantee lower costs. Tort reform: Studies have shown this would have an impact of a mere couple of percentage points of total cost. Negligible at best in the big picture. Just moving money from one wealthy group (trial lawyers) to another (physicians) a pet project for Repubs that don't like to see the "little people" or those who represent them getting the spoils when society deems it necessary to keep someone in line.

Intrastate competition- Might help, but why are the insurance companies so bent on having an antitrust exemption if they love competition? They certainly don't want competition from a government run plan, which could keep costs down. They'd rather collude on prices and keep their bottom lines intact than become leaner more efficient companies.

Tax breaks: a pretty good idea, but what of those who don't earn enough to qualify for tax breaks? A tax credit, perhaps.

 

Look, these are well worn conservative ideas. Nothing groundbreaking there. We simply need a party to step up and do something major in terms of an overhaul. The private insurance system is broken and needs to go the way of the dinosaur, dodo bird, whatever. It is simply an inefficient overly expensive way to do health care. Other countries spend less of GDP on health care for better outcomes, life expectancies etc than we get here. it is a fact that our system is neither the best nor the worst, but clearly the most costly. Eventually all of us will lose what we have as the double digit cost increases continue. Yet there are regular folks out there lapping up Fox news arguments of why we need to continue to feed the bloated health insurance industry with our hard earned dollars. It makes no sense.

[KD in CA]

Unfortunately these ideas do nothing to guarantee lower costs.

 

Nor does the current Obama plan.

[Boatdrinks]

I'm not sure how you get "I own the country". If you think some other place is paradise because they do something ludicrous, then you ought to head over there and try it for yourself. I've lived all over the world - pretty much nothing is the way it's reported but that doesn't stop people like you from trumpeting it from Mount High as if it was the gospel itself.

 

Oh, I think the U.S. is wrong - just like the rest of the world. I also have absolutely no doubt that if the government gets more involved with health care it'll get even more expensive and the quality will fall proportionately - and I'll be proven correct in very short order.

 

I'll let you know the minute one of your insults registers.

 

 

Believe me, I won't be waiting around for that FYI. I said you are acting as though you own the country. I also hardly think that examining other systems of health care around the world qualifies as "ludicrous". Other countries get as good or better health outcomes for less money than we spend.Why not emulate them? Just like other countries build better vehicles, etc. Nothing wrong with figuring out a better way to do things. Just who are we protecting here anyway? CEO's of insurance companies? Health care should be about the citizens.

[Alaska Darin]

Believe me, I won't be waiting around for that FYI. I said you are acting as though you own the country.

Just as you are acting as the statistics stand on their own, when they clearly don't.

I also hardly think that examining other systems of health care around the world qualifies as "ludicrous".

I'd hardly call what you're doing "examining". Though we could use "ludicrous" to describe your conclusion.

Other countries get as good or better health outcomes for less money than we spend.Why not emulate them?

Because the reasons are incredibly dissimilar. I know that's tough for you mouth breathers to understand but try thinking outside your little rat cage for five seconds.

Just like other countries build better vehicles, etc.

What countries? The last time I checked vehicles aren't being built by countries.

Health care should be about the citizens.

Let me know when that starts happening because NOTHING that's going on now has ANYTHING to do with that, regardless of how many times you click your retard slippers together.

[Magox]

Unfortunately these ideas do nothing to guarantee lower costs. Tort reform: Studies have shown this would have an impact of a mere couple of percentage points of total cost. Negligible at best in the big picture. Just moving money from one wealthy group (trial lawyers) to another (physicians) a pet project for Repubs that don't like to see the "little people" or those who represent them getting the spoils when society deems it necessary to keep someone in line.

Intrastate competition- Might help, but why are the insurance companies so bent on having an antitrust exemption if they love competition? They certainly don't want competition from a government run plan, which could keep costs down. They'd rather collude on prices and keep their bottom lines intact than become leaner more efficient companies.

Tax breaks: a pretty good idea, but what of those who don't earn enough to qualify for tax breaks? A tax credit, perhaps.

 

Look, these are well worn conservative ideas. Nothing groundbreaking there. We simply need a party to step up and do something major in terms of an overhaul. The private insurance system is broken and needs to go the way of the dinosaur, dodo bird, whatever. It is simply an inefficient overly expensive way to do health care. Other countries spend less of GDP on health care for better outcomes, life expectancies etc than we get here. it is a fact that our system is neither the best nor the worst, but clearly the most costly. Eventually all of us will lose what we have as the double digit cost increases continue. Yet there are regular folks out there lapping up Fox news arguments of why we need to continue to feed the bloated health insurance industry with our hard earned dollars. It makes no sense.

No one says that there is a magical silver bullet to bringing down health insurance premiums.

 

However Tort reform, according to the CBO would save over $54 Billion over the next 10 years, and that isn't even considering the "Defensive medicine" savings that would take place, which has been estimated to bring down as much as 15% of premiums. So yes, it would help.

 

Intrastate competition wouldn't help in all states, because some states have Profit Margins of less than 1%, however there are some states that lack competition with PM's close to 10%, so yes, this would help.

 

Tax Breaks would help everyone reduce their costs. Period!!

 

Another factor is having to insure people with pre existing medical conditions, if Health insurers are forced to take on these risks, that would mean that peoples premiums would have to go higher, because of the added risks. As a matter of fact, the CBO just scored the Public option as being an alternative that would RAISE premiums. Thats right, RAISE premiums.

 

http://www.politico.com/livepulse/1009/CBO...vate_plans.html

 

So I agree that we need reform, but the Public Option is a disaster, not only would it raise premiums for people, but it would add to the deficit. Although the CBO scored the House's version of the Bill as reducing the Deficit, that doesn't include the "Doctor Fix". The Doctor Fix will add another $250 Billion to the deficit, and these weasels in congress aren't adding this to the bill, just so it meets the "deficit neutral" criteria of the President. I suggest you read up on the "Doctor Fix", in a nutshell, they are cutting out $500 Billion in Medicare Medicaid, to make the bill "deficit neutral", and then create a new bill that will be worth $250 Billion to reimburse half of the cuts from Medicare. Talk about fraud.

 

If your concern is to bringing down costs, then you should read the CBO score and call your congressman and tell them to not vote for the Public Option.

[IDBillzFan]

Health care should be about the citizens.

And what better way to make it about the citizens than to put the government in charge of it. :wallbash:

 

If you truly care about the citizens,the very last thing you would EVER advocate is putting the government in charge of something like health care.

[Magox]

And what better way to make it about the citizens than to put the government in charge of it. :wallbash:

 

If you truly care about the citizens,the very last thing you would EVER advocate is putting the government in charge of something like health care.

You know how many countries have tried to do good by their citizens by taking care of them? ALOT!! And just about every single one of those socialized countries have been experiencing Stagnant growth, high tax rates, and persistent unemployment over the past 50 years.

 

What people don't realize is that this Bill does nothing to bring down premiums, and does everything to raise taxes and deficits which of course means more taxes. Which reminds me of this quote from Abraham Lincoln

 

"You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The Government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half get's the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is surely the end of any nation's future."

[1billsfan]

Unfortunately these ideas do nothing to guarantee lower costs. Tort reform: Studies have shown this would have an impact of a mere couple of percentage points of total cost. Negligible at best in the big picture. Just moving money from one wealthy group (trial lawyers) to another (physicians) a pet project for Repubs that don't like to see the "little people" or those who represent them getting the spoils when society deems it necessary to keep someone in line.

Intrastate competition- Might help, but why are the insurance companies so bent on having an antitrust exemption if they love competition? They certainly don't want competition from a government run plan, which could keep costs down. They'd rather collude on prices and keep their bottom lines intact than become leaner more efficient companies.

Tax breaks: a pretty good idea, but what of those who don't earn enough to qualify for tax breaks? A tax credit, perhaps.

 

Look, these are well worn conservative ideas. Nothing groundbreaking there. We simply need a party to step up and do something major in terms of an overhaul. The private insurance system is broken and needs to go the way of the dinosaur, dodo bird, whatever. It is simply an inefficient overly expensive way to do health care. Other countries spend less of GDP on health care for better outcomes, life expectancies etc than we get here. it is a fact that our system is neither the best nor the worst, but clearly the most costly. Eventually all of us will lose what we have as the double digit cost increases continue. Yet there are regular folks out there lapping up Fox news arguments of why we need to continue to feed the bloated health insurance industry with our hard earned dollars. It makes no sense.

 

 

Cash for clunkers - costing taxpayers $24,000 per car

 

Tax credits for home buyers - 107,000 examinations of questionable claims

 

Medicare - massive fraud to the tune of 60 billion dollars a year

 

Tax cheaters are appointed to top administration positions

 

Obama stumping for a corrupt Chris Dodd who got a sweetheart deal from Countrywide

 

Charley Rangel is not only not in jail for tax evasion, he's still the chairman of the House Ways and Means Commitee

 

Maybe the people in power need to clean up the messes they've made, clean up the messes that have been around for a long time and continue to fester, and clean up their own corrupt backyards before they are trusted with the monumental task of healthcare reform. Do THAT, and then we can talk about major governmental overhauls of an industry that's roughly 1/6th of the GDP.

[John Adams]

From Pelosi's bill: A new "health choices commissioner" will decide what counts as "essential benefits," which all insurers will have to offer as first-dollar coverage. Private insurers will also be told how much they are allowed to charge even as they will have to offer coverage at virtually the same price to anyone who applies, regardless of health status or medical history.

 

But the insurance companies are not being taken over and this is not socialized healthcare.

[keepthefaith]

[quote name='KD in CT' date='Oct 19 2009, 10:22 PM' post='1607191'

 

It should be an individual expense like everything else.

 

 

 

Strange, but NO OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD feels the way you do about medical care for its citizens. Apparently YOU are the only one in the world with this thought. I'm guessing you are wrong on the"individual expense" notion.

Also, no one is "forcing" employers to offer health insurance now. Many companies don't. You see, awhile ago it was decided that making health benefits not subject to federal tax would help employers attract employees. Obviously this worked well for a time , but is now antiquated and cannot keep up with the costs. There are probably more applicants than jobs today as well. The system is outdated, period. Something needs to change. However the bills in congress are inadequate and do nothing to address the problem :cost. We pay a lot of money for a system that doesn't cover everybody, is too expensive, and supports a "leach" industry that is largely irrelevant- insurance companies. They collect money, make a huge profit by deciding who gets care and who doesn't, and does not provide a service related to actual health care. This is obviously inefficient and that is why no other country does it this way. Unless we completely eliminate the health "insurance" industry and go to single payer government run health care, we are putting lipstick on a pig. The insurance industry went along with the "public option" until the penalty for not purchasing private insurance was decided to be too weak. Translation: All those guaranteed new customers you were giving us are not going to be young healthy folks that we'll be robbing blind..they will include people who may actually...GULP.. use their insurance! No way! See? Health care is unlike most other businesses and should not be run, morally anyway (and I'm an atheist) as a for profit industry. The only people making any profit should be the health care providers (i.e. doctors, nurses and any other medical professionals) everything else should be done by the government for the good of its people. Period. Right now, health care in this country in rationed according to income levels and social status. That is wrong. (And yes, I have very good insurance). However, in this case neither party has it right. Blow up the whole system now, or let it continue its death spiral of rising costs until the majority of citizens DON'T have it . Then it will change to a more civilized way of doing things. By and large the system everywhere else works. Can the entire rest of the civilized nations of the world be wrong? Seriously?

 

 

Yes, those countries can be wrong. I own and operate a company of 12 people. We provide health insurance to them AT NO COST TO THEM. That's right, we pay 100% of the premium. How and why do we do it? Simple. The current health care system makes it difficult for individuals to buy insurance in the same manner they buy auto, life or homeowners. The health care industry has evolved that way over the years as companies offered health insurance to employees as a way to compete to hire and also as a way to reduce risk. Most of our employees are young and joined our company with no coverage. As a distribution company I don't want people working for me with no coverage in the event that they get hurt on the job. Don't want or need the headache or risk of workman's comp claims if they can be avoided. Insurance companies like the current system because they can target large groups of potential customers through a single employer and it's harder for such a group to change to a competitor. We offer a high deductible plan which is very cost effective for us and the employee. Premiums are much much lower. It is affordable now.

 

I don't think you can debate this topic and conclude that health insurance should be tied in any way to employment. That's just dumb. It should be a personal choice and a personal responsibility. Our employees cannot choose the coverage we offer. Everyone in our plan has to have the same coverage if they particiate. People should be free to shop for the coverage they want and not be forced to change it if they change jobs or lose their job. I'd gladly give all my employees a raise equal to the cost of the insurance. Countries with socialized medicine typically do not offer choices in coverage, doctors or treatment. Americans want that. It also stifles innovation among Doctors and manufacurers.

 

Make health care a personal responsibility and move the system away from employer based and allow insurance companies to sell across state lines and offer a range of insurance products to individuals and you'll see reduced costs. You'll see people become more responsible for maintaining their own health and reducing their own cost. Catastrophic only insurance is much cheaper and all that most would want to pay for. Processing claims for ordinary doctor visits only adds to the cost.

 

Medicare is going broke due mostly to end of life costs and new treaments and drugs for the elderly. It might be that Medicare rates have to go up in order to provide that level of care. Making everyone that benefits pay for it is the fairest way if necessary.

 

The last thing we need in this country is another entitlement program that is poorly administered and will ultimately result in bugdet deficits and will become a crutch for many and ultimately a political mess.

[ExiledInIllinois]

You never heard of Humana, Aetna, Wellpoint? Where the hell have you been?

 

You said they are making ridiculous profits? I proved to you that they are not.

 

I have Humana and I work for the federal gov't. They have been raising their prices 60 bucks a month every year for the last couple of years. My share next year is gonna be 207 every two weeks... My employer, the US gov't will be picking up around 370 every two weeks... That is a whole ton of cash for one family, 400 bucks a month.

 

My son broke his arm in 2005 and it cost about 11,000 dollars... I guess I am still getting my money's worth... Ya right... That isn't even one year of premiums... And my healthcare provider is still squabbling about 15 bucks I owe them and how it turned into 25 bucks this year... I won't pay them one cent more, no matter how little or trivial it is...

 

I know a guy with an artifical and that has a 60,000 dollar chip in in... Oh, and a guy with two 40,000 dollar heart valves.

 

 

Boy... If if this was good ole Chevy we would be crucifyiing them for Dev's leaky oil pan on his Cavalier.

 

So yes... I think they are making ridiculous profits... They just aren't disclosing it.

 

Oh, and service keeps on getting worse... More out of pocket money, co-pays, what not.

 

I have had Humana for a bunch of years now and they are going right down the sewer with over pricing. Evey year it is the same old slick marketing campaign and you get nothing except declining service.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Oh, I think the U.S. is wrong - just like the rest of the world. I also have absolutely no doubt that if the government gets more involved with health care it'll get even more expensive and the quality will fall proportionately - and I'll be proven correct in very short order.

 

I say roll the dice... That stuff is already happening (red).

[ExiledInIllinois]

That's just dumb. It should be a personal choice and a personal responsibility. Our employees cannot choose the coverage we offer. Everyone in our plan has to have the same coverage if they particiate. People should be free to shop for the coverage they want and not be forced to change it if they change jobs or lose their job. I'd gladly give all my employees a raise equal to the cost of the insurance. Countries with socialized medicine typically do not offer choices in coverage, doctors or treatment. Americans want that. It also stifles innovation among Doctors and manufacurers.

 

I work for the federal gov't. You know what the problem is? I get TOO MUCH choice to shop around, raising ALL the prices.

[Alaska Darin]

I say roll the dice... That stuff is already happening (red).

That's because you don't actually understand the problem so you're more than willing to go along with a ridiculously stupid solution. Which is what Washington counts on.

[ExiledInIllinois]

That's because you don't actually understand the problem so you're more than willing to go along with a ridiculously stupid solution. Which is what Washington counts on.

 

And you think you understand the problem. Thanks for the early morning laugh!

 

That is the problem, there are people like you who think they understand the problem when they really don't understand the problem at all.