Hire-A-Real-GM/Coach Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 wow an ARZ-HOU game sounds a heck of lot easier and more entertaining to watch than Buffalo vs. anyone....lol
No QB - No Bueno Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Bigger, faster, stronger doesn't always equate with better games. Better maybe than the monotony of game between cellar dwelling teams in the 60's. While training advances have elevated the baseline speed of the game compared to 20 or 30 years ago, I doubt the actual skill level has risen at the same rate. We've all seen it. A league full of work-out warriors who often lack the skill commensurate with their bulging frames. Sure it can be fun to see straight-line high speed collisions, but it does little to advance the game. Then there is the beef. Does anyone want to argue that stocking teams with linemen who far exceed clinical obesity standards makes for a better game? The development of a lineman's technical skill has taken a back seat to pure elephantine bulk. I wonder if the more recent generation of youth coaches even bother teaching line technique. Just have your fat guy lean on the smaller guy. Or you can draft or sign a few power forwards that have no football experience and hope you can cram 10 years of muscle memory into a year or two. I'm not a nostalgic guy, but I do pine for the age of athletic and mobile lines. Check out clips on youtube of DeLamellure and McKenzie pulling on OJ's sweeps. A thing of beauty even if those two would barely be linebackers today.
LongLiveRalph Posted October 15, 2009 Author Posted October 15, 2009 Interesting take. I totally disagree with #3. That's a product of rooting for what has become a pathetic franchise. The 10th-15th best QB's today are actually pretty good - better than they were 20 years ago. That you mention Everett and Kosar as marquee guys pretty much confirms that (not that they were bad). Some of the QB's the Pats/Jets/Colts trotted out against the Kelly teams were woeful; and Jay Schroeder was the opposition in the '90 championship game. It's not a function of the Bills at all. I would say that 80% of the coaches in the NFL coach "not to lose," and their offenses and QB play reflect that (advanced defenses have something to do with it too, no doubt.) The league has changed DRASTICALLY since the 1980-thru-1995 days, making the QB a much more demanding and difficult position. The short pass has replaced a portion of the running game. Defenses are more complex and there are more reads than in the past. But, we think of Jim Kelly as a gunslinger. He only had 26 300-yard passing games in his entire HOF career. Drew Brees already has 32, and Payton has 52. Hell, Kerry Collins has 30. So it's not necesarily a stats-to-stats comparison...It's different eras. I wasn't referring to Kosar and Everett as the marquees, I was saying they were average guys but seemed to be more than just a caretaker between punts. The middle of the road guys weren't too bad then...Testaverde, Esiason, Bledsoe, Simms, Gannon, Krieg, Theisman...On top of the Aikman, Cunningham, Kosar, etc. that I mentioned above. These guys seemed to be more than "game managers" for whom a 3rd & 11 conversion is a pipe dream. I completely agree, there are some very good QBs at the top of the heap in today's game. Some of the best of all time in Brady and Manning, and maybe Brees works himself in there. But there are many QBs who are servicable at best, and their own teams play to limit them or hide them. "Don't throw a pick, don't take a sack, throw it away...Nice job." And for what it's worth, even though Jay Schroeder got there handing off to Bo Jackson and Marcus Allen, the other three Bills' AFC Champ game opponents had QBs named Elway, Marino, and Montana. I hate Miami, but you have to give them BIG props for turning to the Wildcat offense. Their offense sucked, they were 0-2, so instead of continuing to run the same, shiitty Chad Pennington offense, they actually used some imagination to get the ball into the hands of their best players more often. And, AMAZINGLY enough, something different CAN work...They rode it to a division title...And now, just like the copycat league that it is, every other team in the NFL has a wildcat package. There is a shocking lack of imagination around the league from a bunch of guys who work these "phantom" 18-hour workdays. I think you're right that it's not all-knowing but wrong that it's not all-powerful. Gambling is huge. Fantasy football is huge. Games once per week in an increasingly busier society is huge. Being a made for TV sport is huge. It is an empire that not even a lockout can stop. Maybe that's why I'm not interested. I've never played fantasy and have never had even a minor desire to do so. Just not my thing. I used to gamble quite a bit, but I didn't want to be the guy who just threw $100 on a game and didn't watch. I claimed it was a "hobby" which made the games more interesting (which it did.) So I usually tried to bet the games that were on TV, for college and pros. Then, like I said, I couldn't stand watching the games anymore. I felt like I was wasting full weekends away. I got mad when I lost, and if I won, it wasn't as exciting as it used to be. It just felt like, "Who cares", you know? Why do I care if I can guess who will win Dallas at Philly -6.5? And I have to waste 3.5 hours watching it. I don't disagree- the NFL is the most powerful sports league ever created. I just don't like the recent trends, on the field, but most especially off the field.
zow2 Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 However, the last three years, I have just been disgusted by the PRODUCT. The athletes are the best in the world, no question. The 6-second action from snap-to-tackle can be incredible. But if you removed commercials, timeouts, injuries, and huddles, you're looking at roughly 12 minutes of actual action. And that gets stretched out over 3.5 hours. Like I said, I never truly noticed it until I was watching three games at once, and I was shocked at the amount of times all three TV's were on commercial (and hell, it was usually the SAME Bud Light or Chevy truck commercial too!) One thing that i haven't seen mentioned too much is the Red Zone Channel. It combats exactly what you're talking about. I'm addicted to that on Sunday's. I have the Directv Ticket so i can watch any game i want but the last couple years, I only watch the Bills games in their entirety and RZC. A friend of mine who lives in Denver and has Comcast gets it for free. It's great because they flip around to say the Rams/Vikings and show a few plays....maybe a TD or INT or whatever,,then cut over to the Giants/Raiders and show a 20 yard TD run (they say "live" but it's really on a couple minute delay so you don't miss any big plays)...then to Pittsburgh/Detroit, etc... You can watch all the best plays from the crap games and the marquee games and never have to flip around. I don't know why anyone would watch an entire game unless your team is playing?
LongLiveRalph Posted October 15, 2009 Author Posted October 15, 2009 One thing that i haven't seen mentioned too much is the Red Zone Channel. It combats exactly what you're talking about. I'm addicted to that on Sunday's. I have the Directv Ticket so i can watch any game i want but the last couple years, I only watch the Bills games in their entirety and RZC. A friend of mine who lives in Denver and has Comcast gets it for free. It's great because they flip around to say the Rams/Vikings and show a few plays....maybe a TD or INT or whatever,,then cut over to the Giants/Raiders and show a 20 yard TD run (they say "live" but it's really on a couple minute delay so you don't miss any big plays)...then to Pittsburgh/Detroit, etc... You can watch all the best plays from the crap games and the marquee games and never have to flip around. I don't know why anyone would watch an entire game unless your team is playing? I hear that, you are correct. It's a GREAT idea. No commercials on RZC either. Sooooo much better than three TV's, or that channel that splits the screen into 8 games (so you can watch 4 Chevy commercials and 4 Bud Light commercials at once!) I have Comcast and I have tuned in a few times, it's a good idea. The dictators at the NFL finally came to an agreement to put it on cable, after about a 3-year standoff...
CodeMonkey Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Quality: Decline Value for money: Great decline. Popularity among Americans: The same (very popular)
Dante Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Quality: Decline. Watered down Entertainment Value: Big decline. Games so chopped up by commercials, replay reviews and so on game is becoming mind numbing to watch. I really don't know how the players do it. Make a big play. Get the momentum. And get the life sucked out of you by 5 minuted commercial breaks.
zow2 Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 I hear that, you are correct. It's a GREAT idea. No commercials on RZC either. Sooooo much better than three TV's, or that channel that splits the screen into 8 games (so you can watch 4 Chevy commercials and 4 Bud Light commercials at once!) I have Comcast and I have tuned in a few times, it's a good idea. The dictators at the NFL finally came to an agreement to put it on cable, after about a 3-year standoff... You almost have to wonder why they are offering such a great alternative? I mean it kind of devalues the actual product. Why should I spend money on tickets and schlepping out to a freezing stadium when i can sit in front of my 50" HDTV and watch the exciting moments of EVERY game with no commercials? It's almost like it's too good to be true. It's equally great if you are a gambler and/or fantasy football junkie. You don't miss a thing.
BuffaloRebound Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Too much money involved now and too corporate. Need more Rex Ryan personalities. The League takes itself too serious. I do love the Wildcat though.
billsfan89 Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 I think the reason QB play has fallen off isn't because there has been a decline in the play of the top QB's but rather because there are 32 teams in the league and instead of having 22 QB's with 8 being good 5 being OK and 9 being bad you have 8 or 9 good QB's 8 ok QB's and 15 bad QB's. Its hard to find QB's when 32 teams all need one so even getting one of the OK QB's gives you an advantage. I think the NFL has gone into a very nerf league where you have 5-6 good teams who are a cut above 5-6 teams who are at the bottom and 20 teams who have 8-8 talent and count on 3 things to determine the season 1- injuries 2- in game luck 3- unexpected production (Obviously 1 and 2 are more important). So you have a very unpredictable league that has ton's of upsets and teams have quick turnarounds (Bengals) and quick downturns (Titans). I like the on field product but think 2 big things need to change. 1- Roughing the passer should have an incidental contact penalty (5 yards and replay down no automatic first) much like the old face mask rule or running into the kicker as apposed to roughing the kicker. 2- There needs to be a change to the OT rule just give each team one offensive possession you shouldn't be rewarding field goals. Off-Field there needs to be a rookie salary structure its just ridiculous that a guy who never played a snap can walk in and get outrageously more than a guy who has been busting his ass for years. Another thing they should do is keep the salary cap it does provide for competitive balance but the league does need to address these super stadiums (Like the Cowboys and Giants/Jets stadium) that are pricing out the fans.
LongLiveRalph Posted October 15, 2009 Author Posted October 15, 2009 Too much money involved now and too corporate. Need more Rex Ryan personalities. The League takes itself too serious. I do love the Wildcat though. Agreed whole heartedly. Can't stand the Jets but love Ryan's attitude and bravado. Can't stand the Dolphins but using the wildcat was a great idea and one of the league's few recent original ideas.
birdog1960 Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 You almost have to wonder why they are offering such a great alternative? I mean it kind of devalues the actual product. Why should I spend money on tickets and schlepping out to a freezing stadium when i can sit in front of my 50" HDTV and watch the exciting moments of EVERY game with no commercials? It's almost like it's too good to be true. It's equally great if you are a gambler and/or fantasy football junkie. You don't miss a thing.It's to placate fans like us who root for perennial losers. It may be effective but it sure feels manipulative. What you miss in many cities is a chance cheer for a team that has even the slimmest chance of winning a championship. The owners know it and try to fill the void.
May Day 10 Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 MY discovery of the awesomeness of NCAA Football has seriously deflated my interest in the NFL. If the Bills move I will have no problem turning the channel on the NFL forever.
disco Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Great post and I agree with many of your points. Here's another angle: I'm a Bills fan in DC and a Washington Capitals season ticket holder. Hockey has been interesting to watch because they've needed to do more to try and connect to fans. They've lowered ticket prices. Players are friendly and accessible. They let you watch games online, on sat, on cable - everywhere; and the package is a 3rd the cost of the NFL package. The NHL found itself in a position where it needed to do more to attract fans. And, well, they have - and I think are a much better league for it. The NFL on the other hand, needs to do very little to attract fans - and I think it's beginning to show. Sure it's a great product, but I also feel like it's an overpriced distant corporate entity. In DC, I think kids growing up going to Capitals games right now get to walk away with the feeling that they really are a part of the system. I don't believe kids going to Redskin games feel that same immersion in the team. If they can even get there - many will only experience Caps game due to pricing. And I think this can change the root loyalties of younger fans in the years to come. Sure kids will continue to like the NFL, but the opportunity for other leagues to steal fans is very high.
Thoner7 Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 To aswer your question, its on the decline to me. Too much kitty ass calls like Suggs falling near Brady and a penalty. The tuck rule. No one is allowed to lay big hits anymore. Any sholder with whiplash hit is considered helmet to helmet. Pass interference with the slightest touching. Guys like Bruce would have been called for 1000 roughing the passer penalties. Guys like Kelly and Reed would have doubled their yards because of the lack of contact allowed in todays game. Its half way to pro wrestling and it doesnt look like they are correcting this trend. Secondly, I hate watching the same offense run by every team agaisnt the same defenses run by every team. I prefer the college game because I can watch ND run a pro offense, Texas run the spread, Florida run a spread/single wing hybrid, GT run the Flexbone option, etc etc etc. The only prob in the college game is a team like USC can play Grambling state and no one wants to watch that blowout. In that sense its hard to follow one college team, like the way I follow the Bills, because they may only play 3-4 good opponents each year. But just enjoying a great college matchup blows an NFL game away IMO.
BillsFan68 Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Agree with most of the comments reflecting the decline in quality of the NFL. I don't think even the best teams are as good as in the recent past. I'll toss this out for consideration: Since the new CBA went into effect, many NFL teams have turned to new, young, first time head coaches( i.e. cheaper). Admittedly, some coaches have succeeded, moderately, short term. But with so many established, knowledgeable coaches out of the game, I think player quality and discipline has declined. Further, because of the reduction in cash, owners have slashed scouting departments in favor of databases, info pooled together. I think this has an impact after the Draft. Players not ready for their high draft status are being forced into action before they are ready because of their high draft spot. JMO
Andrew in CA Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 I was always that way when I was younger, I could watch any game. In my teens the Bills were still pretty good and I loved the league. Then, in my 20's, the Bills took a bit of a downturn, but I still loved the league and would bet on some games here and there, which often made games MUCH more exciting. However, the last three years, I have just been disgusted by the PRODUCT. The athletes are the best in the world, no question. The 6-second action from snap-to-tackle can be incredible. But if you removed commercials, timeouts, injuries, and huddles, you're looking at roughly 12 minutes of actual action. And that gets stretched out over 3.5 hours. Like I said, I never truly noticed it until I was watching three games at once, and I was shocked at the amount of times all three TV's were on commercial (and hell, it was usually the SAME Bud Light or Chevy truck commercial too!) As for the coaches, there are only 32 jobs in the world, it's a win-now league, and they all try to save their job by trying to NOT lose, rather than trying to win. 80% of the coaches seem to coach scared, and 80% of the QBs seem to get sucked into the "game manager" role. Couple that with Bill Walsh's West Coast offense of the 1980's, and what you're stuck with is 3-yard passes on 3rd & 8. It's unwatchable in most cases for me. For every Jets-Fins great game, you get 4 or 5 duds like Bills-Browns, NYG-Oak, Wash-anybody. I don't play fantasy, I don't place wagers...I have ZERO reason to waste 3+ hours watching commercials surrounded by crappy football played by two teams I couldn't care less about. Every team copies every other team and you end up watching the same game, over and over. I still follow it, I still like it...I just don't like the overall trend of the PRODUCT as a whole- meaning the game, media coverage, "corporatization" of the teams and fans, and the pompous attitude of the league itself. They give off an air of knowing that they have the people in the palm of their hand, and will F them out of every last penny if they can. I definitely see where you're coming from, especially re: commercial breaks and the league taking itself too seriously. Like another poster in this thread stated, personalities like Rex Ryan, even though he's a rival coach, make the league more fun. Candor and emotion make the league more entertaining, not less, and I think Goodell needs to understand that. As for commercials, the amount and frequency is irritating, no doubt, and I don't think that will ever change, since that's where the $$'s coming from. Overall, though, I guess it's just a matter of opinion, and I wholly respect yours but just disagree. Football is the most entertaining sport, for me, and the NFL is a superior product to college because the quality of players and competition is more advanced and I thus find it more entertaining. Obviously, the NFL has its flaws, as I reiterate my surprise at the amount of people in this thread that are really dissatisfied, but I just disagree. It's got its warts, but I love it- I look forward to it when its over and I look forward to every single Sunday from September to January.
Nostradumbass Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Nothing like a post full of 30 and 40 year olds pining for the good old days. Of course the good old days meant an entire season with only two watchable games, the 49ers and Cowboys regular season tilt and the NFC championship game. Anybody who say otherwise simply has bad memory. I defy anyone to watch the next "classic" game on the NFL network from say 15 years ago and then come back to this post and say the football was better. The product is faster, more violent and is played by more athletic players then ever before. I agree commercials are a problem but what do you think drives the boat?
Chalkie Gerzowski Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 It's not a function of the Bills at all. I would say that 80% of the coaches in the NFL coach "not to lose," and their offenses and QB play reflect that (advanced defenses have something to do with it too, no doubt.) The league has changed DRASTICALLY since the 1980-thru-1995 days, making the QB a much more demanding and difficult position. The short pass has replaced a portion of the running game. Defenses are more complex and there are more reads than in the past. But, we think of Jim Kelly as a gunslinger. He only had 26 300-yard passing games in his entire HOF career. Drew Brees already has 32, and Payton has 52. Hell, Kerry Collins has 30. So it's not necesarily a stats-to-stats comparison...It's different eras. I wasn't referring to Kosar and Everett as the marquees, I was saying they were average guys but seemed to be more than just a caretaker between punts. The middle of the road guys weren't too bad then...Testaverde, Esiason, Bledsoe, Simms, Gannon, Krieg, Theisman...On top of the Aikman, Cunningham, Kosar, etc. that I mentioned above. These guys seemed to be more than "game managers" for whom a 3rd & 11 conversion is a pipe dream. I completely agree, there are some very good QBs at the top of the heap in today's game. Some of the best of all time in Brady and Manning, and maybe Brees works himself in there. But there are many QBs who are servicable at best, and their own teams play to limit them or hide them. "Don't throw a pick, don't take a sack, throw it away...Nice job." And for what it's worth, even though Jay Schroeder got there handing off to Bo Jackson and Marcus Allen, the other three Bills' AFC Champ game opponents had QBs named Elway, Marino, and Montana. I hate Miami, but you have to give them BIG props for turning to the Wildcat offense. Their offense sucked, they were 0-2, so instead of continuing to run the same, shiitty Chad Pennington offense, they actually used some imagination to get the ball into the hands of their best players more often. And, AMAZINGLY enough, something different CAN work...They rode it to a division title...And now, just like the copycat league that it is, every other team in the NFL has a wildcat package. There is a shocking lack of imagination around the league from a bunch of guys who work these "phantom" 18-hour workdays. ...glad to know I'm not the only one who tired of these "18 hour days"...oh noez... as if they are in a Malaysian sweat shop with a gun pointed at their head. 18 hour days...so they can set up a wildcrap offense of their own...and learn how to defer the kickoff... NFL...get over yourself.
Dante Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Nothing like a post full of 30 and 40 year olds pining for the good old days. Of course the good old days meant an entire season with only two watchable games, the 49ers and Cowboys regular season tilt and the NFC championship game. Anybody who say otherwise simply has bad memory. I defy anyone to watch the next "classic" game on the NFL network from say 15 years ago and then come back to this post and say the football was better. The product is faster, more violent and is played by more athletic players then ever before. I agree commercials are a problem but what do you think drives the boat? At the end of the day, it has to be entertaining. Last week, after watching the elite play of the Bills vs Browns, sat down to watch some of the players from my fantasy team go in the second round of games(Barber, Brady, Houchmenzada etc). I was a little bored from the previous game but I just couldn't take it anymore. Commercial after commercial. TO's, replay reviews. Went downstairs to have a nap, that was more intriguing. I'm one of those guys in his 40s. For me, quality of football teams have gone down with out a doubt. Salary caps and free agency have seen to that. I think you have parity now at the expense of real quality teams. No team is excellent. Funny, lots of pathetic teams though. I think its due to the kind of monopolized socialism the NFL has going on.
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