Alaska Darin Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 This is turning into a waste of time. You're right, all first round flops are products of bad coaching, they're not bad QBs. If Tom Moore coached Russell in Oakland, we'd be calling him Peyton Manning Jr. And Akili Smith just needed Mouse Davis to come out of retirement to be his OC. It's all Mike Brown's fault for not hiring him. And Mark Sanchez looks like a future QB star because Rex Ryan wants to run the ball 80 times a game. I never thought that I'd have to argue that David Klingler or Heath Shuler were blown draft choice. Who knew I'd run into such an expert on QB development . So tell me genius, do us all a favor and look into your f$%king crystal ball and tell me who the Bills have to hire as OC to turn Trent Edwards into the next Jim Kelly, or Phil Simms, or Joe Montana. Enlighten us. Got any more things I've never said? Not once have I said Trent Edwards was going to be a HoF QB. I never said David Klingler, Heath Schuler, or any other first round bust wasn't a blown draft choice. I never said Mouse Davis could make Akili Smith a great QB or that Tom Moore could fix Russell. I never said Mark Sanchez looks like a star. It's pretty !@#$ing stupid to say that every first round QB drafted who didn't make it could possibly have "just been a bad QB". Especially considering the points I've already made about successful NFL men and the choices they've made. I don't expect you to get the correlation between the breaths you take in orally. My entire point is that you cannot expect to develop ANY college QB the way the BILLS have with Edwards/Losman. The rest of the point is that smart football people take necessary steps to give their young QBs the best chance to succeed. COACHING AND DEVELOPMENT MATTER. Apparently that's really hard for you to comprehend because somehow you know better than real NFL personnel men who is going to be a productive NFL QB, despite your unwillingness to tell us who the next great one will be. Nut up, Sparky. It's turned into a waste of time because you've been exposed as another regurgitating blowhard who doesn't know football from his own balls. Again.
jad1 Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Got any more things I've never said? Not once have I said Trent Edwards was going to be a HoF QB. I never said David Klingler, Heath Schuler, or any other first round bust wasn't a blown draft choice. I never said Mouse Davis could make Akili Smith a great QB or that Tom Moore could fix Russell. I never said Mark Sanchez looks like a star. It's pretty !@#$ing stupid to say that every first round QB drafted who didn't make it could possibly have "just been a bad QB". Especially considering the points I've already made about successful NFL men and the choices they've made. I don't expect you to get the correlation between the breaths you take in orally. Right: Me: I'm still waiting for your examples, by the way, of young QBs with franchise potential being broken by a poor coaching staff. You: Pick any first round QB who didn't make it, ever. So maaybe I missed your meaning, but that implies that David Klingler just needed a better coaching staff to guide his development and he wouldn't have been a bust. My entire point is that you cannot expect to develop ANY college QB the way the BILLS have with Edwards/Losman. The rest of the point is that smart football people take necessary steps to give their young QBs the best chance to succeed. COACHING AND DEVELOPMENT MATTER. Sure, and my point is that even with a bad coaching staffs, QBs with NFL starting potential still show something despite the rest of the team around them. Despite their situation, Losman and Edwards haven't shown the ability to rise above the chaos around them. This is something that Elway, Kelly and Manning all did. Losman and Edwards are bad quarterbacks playing on bad teams with bad coaches. Apparently that's really hard for you to comprehend because somehow you know better than real NFL personnel men who is going to be a productive NFL QB, despite your unwillingness to tell us who the next great one will be. Nut up, Sparky. Right, because this is about me. My argument is based upon the common observation that some first round QBs become successful while some first round QBs become total flops. Not all of those flops played for poor coaches (Kyle Boller, Matt Leinart). So maybe, just maybe, the QBs that turn out to be good bring something to the NFL that contribute to their success. You're unwilling to concede that point. It's turned into a waste of time because you've been exposed as another regurgitating blowhard who doesn't know football from his own balls. Again. No, it's a waste of time because I'm debating with a self-appointed know-it-all who mutates his arguments and makes personal attacks rather than conceding a point to further a debate. It's been real, though. Have a good night.
DC Tom Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 No, it's a waste of time because I'm debating with a self-appointed know-it-all who mutates his arguments and makes personal attacks rather than conceding a point to further a debate. Pot, kettle, black.
Alaska Darin Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 So maaybe I missed your meaning, but that implies that David Klingler just needed a better coaching staff to guide his development and he wouldn't have been a bust. You absolutely cannot discount the possibility. Klingler was a first round pick for a reason, dumbass. Just like all the other first round picks, regardless of position. 10% of first round picks turn out to be great. 10% of the great ones turn out to be HoFers. You think your points are cogent based on 1% if the sample, which is patently ridiculous. Sure, and my point is that even with a bad coaching staffs, QBs with NFL starting potential still show something despite the rest of the team around them. Despite their situation, Losman and Edwards haven't shown the ability to rise above the chaos around them. This is something that Elway, Kelly and Manning all did. Elway never played for a bad coaching staff. Neither did Manning. Kelly played for Bullough for less than half a season and had 3 previous seasons of development by a quarterback guru who he credits for making him into a pro QB. Kelly and Manning basically played the most successful parts of their career under the same front office staff. Try and figure out why you've made no point there. Losman and Edwards are bad quarterbacks playing on bad teams with bad coaches. Losman and Edwards were all but guaranteed to be bad quarterbacks because they play on bad teams and for bad coaches. These things don't happen in a vacuum, Cletus. Right, because this is about me. My argument is based upon the common observation that some first round QBs become successful while some first round QBs become total flops. Not all of those flops played for poor coaches (Kyle Boller, Matt Leinart). Some? How about most? Most first round QBs are total flops. You're annoiting Flacco and Ryan based on a season and a quarter of basically being carried by the teams around them. Sanchez based on even less. So maybe, just maybe, the QBs that turn out to be good bring something to the NFL that contribute to their success. You're unwilling to concede that point. Unwilling to concede that first round QBs who turn out good bring something to the NFL? That's some brilliant thinking right there. Absolutely genius. No, it's a waste of time because I'm debating with a self-appointed know-it-all who mutates his arguments and makes personal attacks rather than conceding a point to further a debate. It's been real, though. Have a good night. There isn't a real point to concede but I'm not surprised you are having a tough time figuring that out. I'm the "know it all" but you still haven't told me who the next great NFL QB currently playing in college is. Put up or STFU.
Ray Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 It is not the coaching it is the player...Trent Edwards. We need to quit blaming the coaches and how a new OC will make a bad player better...players play and win or lose. This town ran Kevin Gilbride out of town and he coaches a SB winning offense. Did he all of a sudden become such a better coach? Well he did when he got Eli Manning as his QB. Dan Henning was run out of town as well....seems to have had a lot of success the other places he went. Mike Mularkey was horrible with Losman and Holcomb but then apparently was such a better coach when he had Ryan in Atlanta and Turnr as his RB. Quit the excuses for Edwards, he is the one missing the throws, not making the throws. It is literally that simple on 90% of plays.
Alaska Darin Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 It is not the coaching it is the player...Trent Edwards. We need to quit blaming the coaches and how a new OC will make a bad player better...players play and win or lose. This town ran Kevin Gilbride out of town and he coaches a SB winning offense. Did he all of a sudden become such a better coach? Well he did when he got Eli Manning as his QB. Dan Henning was run out of town as well....seems to have had a lot of success the other places he went. Mike Mularkey was horrible with Losman and Holcomb but then apparently was such a better coach when he had Ryan in Atlanta and Turnr as his RB. Quit the excuses for Edwards, he is the one missing the throws, not making the throws. It is literally that simple on 90% of plays.
LGB Posted October 13, 2009 Author Posted October 13, 2009 It is not the coaching it is the player...Trent Edwards. We need to quit blaming the coaches and how a new OC will make a bad player better...players play and win or lose. This town ran Kevin Gilbride out of town and he coaches a SB winning offense. Did he all of a sudden become such a better coach? Well he did when he got Eli Manning as his QB. Dan Henning was run out of town as well....seems to have had a lot of success the other places he went. Mike Mularkey was horrible with Losman and Holcomb but then apparently was such a better coach when he had Ryan in Atlanta and Turnr as his RB. Quit the excuses for Edwards, he is the one missing the throws, not making the throws. It is literally that simple on 90% of plays. Why not see what Fitzpatrick has - and if he can be any faster and more accurate finding Evans and Owens?
evilbuffalobob Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Only homos need 20 seconds to find their (open) man.
SouthGeorgiaBillsFan Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 There are QBs in this league right NOW who have O-Lines just as bad as Trent's. But they don't turn into deer in headlights because of it. Much like his head coach. God, if only we'd know what old Footsteps woulda been like had he had a real man coaching him the last three seasons. I'm guessing the exact same scared little baby, but at least he'd be the backup to a smarter, ballsier veteran by now. Your posting alias is very apropos.
ThreeBillsDrive Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 2009 Sacks Trent Edwards -- sacked 18 times Peyton Manning -- sacked 2 times Blame Trent for some of them. But the amateur O-line deserves some of the blame.
jad1 Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 You absolutely cannot discount the possibility. Klingler was a first round pick for a reason, dumbass. Just like all the other first round picks, regardless of position. 10% of first round picks turn out to be great. 10% of the great ones turn out to be HoFers. You think your points are cogent based on 1% if the sample, which is patently ridiculous. Right, the point that good players contain attributes that make them good NFL players is patently ridiculous. David Klinger was a first round pick because the Bengals made a mistake, just like the Bills did with Losman. Elway never played for a bad coaching staff. Neither did Manning. Kelly played for Bullough for less than half a season and had 3 previous seasons of development by a quarterback guru who he credits for making him into a pro QB. Kelly and Manning basically played the most successful parts of their career under the same front office staff. Try and figure out why you've made no point there. The Bills were 4-12 Kelly's rookie year. Elway QB rating was 54% his rookie year. The Colts were 3-13 Manning's rookie season. Despite the coaching staffs, these guys struggled their rookie years. But despite their struggles, they made plays that showed that they were NFL quality starters. See the point. Losman and Edwards were all but guaranteed to be bad quarterbacks because they play on bad teams and for bad coaches. These things don't happen in a vacuum, Cletus. I've never argued that Losman and Edwards didn't play under poor coaches. What I've argued, is that despite have a stacked deck, they haven't made the plays that Kelly, Elway, and Manning did their rookie years. (And I'm comparing their entire careers against the real NFL QBs rookie years). Some? How about most? Most first round QBs are total flops. You're annoiting Flacco and Ryan based on a season and a quarter of basically being carried by the teams around them. Sanchez based on even less. I could use Rothlisberger, Rivers, Manning, Rogers, Palmer, or Cutler. They're all examples of QBs who bring more talent and intangibles to the QB position than Edwards. Unwilling to concede that first round QBs who turn out good bring something to the NFL? That's some brilliant thinking right there. Absolutely genius. That's the point your arguing against. Like I said before; a waste of time. By the way, Edwards brings almost nothing to the NFL. Nada, zip, zilch. If you had a genius coach and OC, what type of offense do you build around a QB who won't throw to his WRs and still can't read a 3-4. There isn't a real point to concede but I'm not surprised you are having a tough time figuring that out. I'm the "know it all" but you still haven't told me who the next great NFL QB currently playing in college is. Put up or STFU. Dude, I don't know, I spend my most my Saturdays out and about. I've seen some of Notre Dame, Texas, Oklahoma, USC, and Florida, and right now, I'm not that impressed with the QBs that will be coming out in the draft. Right now, I hope the Bills don't spend a pick on a QB in the first round. But I just don't spend a lot of time doing college scouting. Happy? Anyway, this grows tiresome. I'm chalking this up to 'agree to disagree' on Edwards and Losman. I'm spending the rest of the night watching the MNF game. Sanchez and Henne are making plays all over the field and I want to catch some of it.
Flbillsfan#1 Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 2009 Sacks Trent Edwards -- sacked 18 times Peyton Manning -- sacked 2 times Blame Trent for some of them. But the amateur O-line deserves some of the blame. Trent was sacked 18 times? SO WHAT!!!!!!!! There were plenty of chances to make plays & Trent DID NOT/COULD NOT make them. He will go down as one of the worst starting QB's in Bills history.
bizell Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 2009 Sacks Trent Edwards -- sacked 18 times Peyton Manning -- sacked 2 times Blame Trent for some of them. But the amateur O-line deserves some of the blame. Peyton Manning is perenially among the lowest sacked QBs in the game. What's your point?
Force_Majeur Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 All we heard for the last couple of years was we needed a another WR to take the heat off Evans. When Hardy did not look like the answer, Owens was signed. Now, both multi-million dollar WRs have been missing. Evans used to be able to get more open without TO on the other side. So all that money spent at WR is a waste if there is no OL or QB. Got it. People really pointed to wideouts as the answer? Doesn't make much sense to me, but then again, I'm a man of reason.
Alaska Darin Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Right, the point that good players contain attributes that make them good NFL players is patently ridiculous. Way to miss the point, as usual. David Klinger was a first round pick because the Bengals made a mistake, just like the Bills did with Losman. Right. Just like the Bengals made the right move with Carson Palmer with essentially the same front office. The Bills were 4-12 Kelly's rookie year. Elway QB rating was 54% his rookie year. The Colts were 3-13 Manning's rookie season. So? Despite the coaching staffs, these guys struggled their rookie years. But despite their struggles, they made plays that showed that they were NFL quality starters. So? See the point. What point? I've never argued that Losman and Edwards didn't play under poor coaches. What I've argued, is that despite have a stacked deck, they haven't made the plays that Kelly, Elway, and Manning did their rookie years. (And I'm comparing their entire careers against the real NFL QBs rookie years). I could use Rothlisberger, Rivers, Manning, Rogers, Palmer, or Cutler. They're all examples of QBs who bring more talent and intangibles to the QB position than Edwards. So you use a bunch of high first rounders as examples of guys who bring more talent to the position than a third rounder? Genius. That's the point your arguing against. Like I said before; a waste of time. By the way, Edwards brings almost nothing to the NFL. Nada, zip, zilch. Neither did Brady, which is why he lasted to round 6. And that isn't the point I'm arguing against at all but your point is so pedestrian that it stands to reason you have a hard time processing what the real point is. If you had a genius coach and OC, what type of offense do you build around a QB who won't throw to his WRs and still can't read a 3-4. We don't have genius coaches. We don't even have competent coaches with a history of offensive success so it stands to reason that a rookie QB is going to have a more difficult time progressing. That minimizes the chance of Edwards ever changing. That doesn't mean he could have developed into a player, it just increases the likelihood that he won't. This really isn't that hard. Dude, I don't know First well thought out thing you've posted in this thread.
Alaska Darin Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 , I spend my most my Saturdays out and about. I've seen some of Notre Dame, Texas, Oklahoma, USC, and Florida, and right now, I'm not that impressed with the QBs that will be coming out in the draft. Right now, I hope the Bills don't spend a pick on a QB in the first round. But I just don't spend a lot of time doing college scouting. Happy? I already knew that. You blather on about QBs who had something (all of whom ended up being in the top 10% to ever play) but don't know of any NOW. Tell me, soothsayer: Which current first or second year QB is going to end up being a HoFer? Anyway, this grows tiresome. I'm chalking this up to 'agree to disagree' on Edwards and Losman. Oh, I was so hoping that would be the case - especially since I've not defended either of them. I'm spending the rest of the night watching the MNF game. Sanchez and Henne are making plays all over the field and I want to catch some of it. How did Henne last to Pick 57 yet is "making plays all over the field"? Could it be competent coaching and minimizing the chance of blowing the guy's confidence early in his development? Nah, he just has "it" and it took 56 passes for someone to notice.
LGB Posted October 13, 2009 Author Posted October 13, 2009 Got it. People really pointed to wideouts as the answer? Doesn't make much sense to me, but then again, I'm a man of reason. after many people were saying we needed to take the heat off of Evans, finally RW said that was needed and viola out comes the $7 million to sign TO. So if he is willing to spend that much on a WR, someone needs to convince him that he needs to do the same thing for a proven GM/HC.
muffmonster Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 2009 Sacks Trent Edwards -- sacked 18 times Peyton Manning -- sacked 2 times Blame Trent for some of them. But the amateur O-line deserves some of the blame. Tired of the O-Line excuse for Edwards. Yes the O-Line sucks and it is not helping him, but as been stated before you look at Roethlisberger and Rodgers, they are able to throw for 300 yard games even though they are continuously hurried and sacked. I would like to see just a glimpse that Edwards is an NFL caliber QB and it is not there. There are plenty of times he does have a pocket and time to throw and it usually ends in a quick checkdown.
LGB Posted October 14, 2009 Author Posted October 14, 2009 Tired of the O-Line excuse for Edwards. Yes the O-Line sucks and it is not helping him, but as been stated before you look at Roethlisberger and Rodgers, they are able to throw for 300 yard games even though they are continuously hurried and sacked. I would like to see just a glimpse that Edwards is an NFL caliber QB and it is not there. There are plenty of times he does have a pocket and time to throw and it usually ends in a quick checkdown. There is only one OL member (Hangartner) that has any real NFL experience on the Bills. Not sure how Rodgers or Roethlisberger would play behind this line, but it is clear that TE could have his roughest season yet.
Recommended Posts