Do you blame Edwards for being shell-shocked?

[billfan63]

Concussions are a funny thing so no I don't blame him. Pat LaFontaine was never the same and Tim Tebow won't be the same and that was obvious vs. LSU. I just chalk it up as a tough break.

Yep that hit stopped him from greatness

[WE_still_BILLieve]

you guys are pitifull. Lets bring JP Loserman back from the UFL and see how great he would be with this O-Line worse than the one he had. Why dont we try to run the WILDBILL Offense. We've got 2 good running backs. If Miami can gain so many freaking yards and score so many point using it why cant we? We have better running backs than they do.

[MarkAF43]

you guys are pitifull. Lets bring JP Loserman back from the UFL and see how great he would be with this O-Line worse than the one he had. Why dont we try to run the WILDBILL Offense. We've got 2 good running backs. If Miami can gain so many freaking yards and score so many point using it why cant we? We have better running backs than they do.

 

 

NEWSFLASH: THE STARTING QB IS AFRAID TO THROW THE BALL. no NFL team wins when their qb is afraid to throw the ball.

[mikecole1]

Yep that hit stopped him from greatness

 

Who knows, all I know is he was 5-1 at this time last year and he's not the same. I'm not a doctor are you?

[LGB]

you guys are pitifull. Lets bring JP Loserman back from the UFL and see how great he would be with this O-Line worse than the one he had. Why dont we try to run the WILDBILL Offense. We've got 2 good running backs. If Miami can gain so many freaking yards and score so many point using it why cant we? We have better running backs than they do.

Two good backs cannot make up for an inexperienced OL and a shell-shocked QB.

[Alaska Darin]

If Miami can gain so many freaking yards and score so many point using it why cant we? We have better running backs than they do.

We don't get to play against our defense on Sundays.

[jad1]

Kelly himself credits his development to Mouse Davis and the time he played in the USFL.

 

Mouse Davis? Kelly's successful because of the run and shoot?

 

Considering you base your theory that young QBs who take a beating become broken, shell-shocked failures, I find it interesting that you would point to an offensive scheme that Kelly got creamed in the USFL as a reason for his success.

 

Kelly liked the Run and Shoot because it let him throw the ball 50 times a game. But it did almost nothing to protect him or develop him in the way you decribe below with Flacco and Ryan.

 

So what is your point again?

 

I'm sure the fact that Peyton Manning has had ONE offensive coordinator his entire career is a complete coincidence. Tom Moore deserves no credit, it's only Manning's genetic awesomeness that has gotten it done.

 

Manning's genetic awesomeness? Yeah, you are familiar with the Mannings, right? So let's say Manning doesn't hook up with Tom Moore. Who fades into oblivion, Moore or Manning? Does Moore turn Andre Ware, David Klingler, or Heath Shuler into the best QB in a generation? Does Manning turn into Trent Dilfer playing for some other sub-standard OC?

 

And speaking of Manning genetic awesomeness, what about Eli, who helped the Giants win the Super Bowl. Who's his offensive coordinator?

 

If Gilbride is so great, how come he didn't develop Rob Johnson like he did Manning?

 

The fact is that Moore and Gilbride are benefiting from the work that Archie Manning did in making his sons NFL-ready straight out of college.

 

Flacco and Ryan played on running teams. Both were in the bottom 4 in passes attempted on teams that were in the top 4 in both rushing attempts and rushing yards. That's smart, stable coaching from people who understand what it takes to win with a rookie QB.

 

Not sure what you're saying here. If you're claiming that good coaching = minimizing pass attempts, well Flacco, Ryan, and Edwards all averaged around 26 pass attempt per game last season.

 

Did the Bills exhibit "smart, stable coaching" by limiting Edwards to the same number of pass attempts that the enlightened coaching staffs of the Ravens and Falcons limited their rookie QBs to?

 

Of course, those staffs got more productivity out of their passing game because they have better QBs.

 

Jets: 4th in rushing attempts, 4th in rushing yards, 29th in passing attempts, 29th in completions, 25th in passing yards. Sanchez has 4 TDs and 5 interceptions. Jets defense: 4th in points allowed. Yeah, he's a franchise guy and the reason the team is getting it done. Ryan's staff deserves no credit. It's all about Sanchez.

 

The Jets didn't trade for Braylon Edwards because they believe he'll be a good downfield blocker. They'll increase Sanchez's role as the season progresses.

 

You're right. You're smarter than all the NFL personnel people combined and none of the first round QBs who've been picked have had the talent to be successful in the NFL and have been broken by their organizations.

 

I never claimed I was smarter than anybody, I'm just expressing my observations and trying to back them up with examples.

 

I'm still waiting for your examples, by the way, of young QBs with franchise potential being broken by a poor coaching staff.

 

We can continue to keep the debate one-sided though, me defending my points, until you come up with your list.

 

It's really that simple, isn't it?

 

Well let's see. Say the Colts drafted Ryan Leaf instead of Peyton Manning. Does Tom Moore coach him to the greatness that Manning has achieved?

 

Let's say that the Houston Gamblers signed Todd Blackledge instead of Jim Kelly. Does Mouse Davis turn him into a HOF QB?

 

What if Kelly Stouffer was drafted by Don Shula instead of Marino. Does he break the NFL TD record?

 

How about Chuck Long playing for Dan Reeves. Does Denver still go to all those Super Bowls?

 

I stand by my point. No coach in the league could turn guys like Akili Smith, Danny Wufferel, Heath Shuler, David Klingler, or Jamal Russell into NFL starters.

 

Finally, how do you explain Matt Leinart? A first round pick who is struggling to hold the backup QB position. Meanwhile, Kurt Warner is lighting up the scoreboard. It the coaching staff enabling Warner, while at the same time it's breaking Leinart?

 

Or is it a case that Warner has what it takes to play in the NFL and Leinart doesn't? And maybe Arizona should have understood that Leinart lacked the committment and leadership needed to play in the NFL, and avoided him in the draft.

[Long Island Phil]

Trent is drain bamaged.

[BadDad]

Touche!!! He isn't even ATTEMPTING to move the ball down the field very much- that's the worst part.

 

Worse, if he does try, he can't hit the broad side of a barn. I don't know if it's the water or the coaching or what but this guy has turned into JP, without an arm.

[BTIZZLE]

Edwards is probably only one or two more Pat LaFontaine hits away from concussion problems given the number of hits he has taken behind the least experienced NFL offensive line. That is, if he hasn’t already been having issues. Trent Edwards has been behind a sub-par line all through college and with the Bills. If you were QB of the Bills, would you want to have this collection of rookies and bench-sitters protecting you from 270 pound bull-rushing defensive ends and all-out blitzing safeties? Is it any wonder the guy is shell-shocked to the point where the first instinct is to bail-out? The OL is everything on offense and besides Edwards having issues, it will be tough to run the ball with a rookie OL. Would anyone be really surprised with a one-win season with the mess we have right now?

 

 

He has been afraid to chuck the ball down the field since the last Cleveland game on Monday night. Remember..... his first 3 attempts were picked.

 

How soon we forgot just how bad he has been.

[Long Island Phil]

Mouse Davis? Kelly's successful because of the run and shoot?

 

Considering you base your theory that young QBs who take a beating become broken, shell-shocked failures, I find it interesting that you would point to an offensive scheme that Kelly got creamed in the USFL as a reason for his success.

 

Kelly liked the Run and Shoot because it let him throw the ball 50 times a game. But it did almost nothing to protect him or develop him in the way you decribe below with Flacco and Ryan.

 

So what is your point again?

 

 

 

Manning's genetic awesomeness? Yeah, you are familiar with the Mannings, right? So let's say Manning doesn't hook up with Tom Moore. Who fades into oblivion, Moore or Manning? Does Moore turn Andre Ware, David Klingler, or Heath Shuler into the best QB in a generation? Does Manning turn into Trent Dilfer playing for some other sub-standard OC?

 

And speaking of Manning genetic awesomeness, what about Eli, who helped the Giants win the Super Bowl. Who's his offensive coordinator?

 

If Gilbride is so great, how come he didn't develop Rob Johnson like he did Manning?

 

The fact is that Moore and Gilbride are benefiting from the work that Archie Manning did in making his sons NFL-ready straight out of college.

 

 

 

Not sure what you're saying here. If you're claiming that good coaching = minimizing pass attempts, well Flacco, Ryan, and Edwards all averaged around 26 pass attempt per game last season.

 

Did the Bills exhibit "smart, stable coaching" by limiting Edwards to the same number of pass attempts that the enlightened coaching staffs of the Ravens and Falcons limited their rookie QBs to?

 

Of course, those staffs got more productivity out of their passing game because they have better QBs.

 

 

 

The Jets didn't trade for Edwards because they believe he'll be a good downfield blocker. They'll increase Sanchez's role as the season progresses.

 

 

 

I never claimed I was smarter than anybody, I'm just expressing my observations and trying to back them up with examples.

 

I'm still waiting for your examples, by the way, of young QBs with franchise potential being broken by a poor coaching staff.

 

We can continue to keep the debate one-sided though, me defending my points, until you come up with your list.

 

 

 

Well let's see. Say the Colts drafted Ryan Leaf instead of Peyton Manning. Does Tom Moore coach him to the greatness that Manning has achieved?

 

Let's say that the Houston Gamblers signed Todd Blackledge instead of Jim Kelly. Does Mouse Davis turn him into a HOF QB?

 

What if Kelly Stouffer was drafted by Don Shula instead of Marino. Does he break the NFL TD record?

 

How about Chuck Long playing for Dan Reeves. Does Denver still go to all those Super Bowls?

 

I stand by my point. No coach in the league could turn guys like Akili Smith, Danny Wufferel, Heath Shuler, David Klingler, or Jamal Russell into NFL starters.

 

Finally, how do you explain Matt Leinart? A first round pick who is struggling to hold the backup QB position. Meanwhile, Kurt Warner is lighting up the scoreboard. It the coaching staff enabling Warner, while at the same time it's breaking Leinart?

 

Or is it a case that Warner has what it takes to play in the NFL and Leinart doesn't? And maybe Arizona should have understood that Leinart lacked the committment and leadership needed to play in the NFL, and avoided him in the draft.

 

 

Phoooooohweee. That was long.

BTW you forgot Tim Couch and Browning Nagle.

[jad1]

Phoooooohweee. That was long.

BTW you forgot Tim Couch and Browning Nagle.

 

Thanks, I'll let Darin explain how NFL coaching ruined the careers of those two gems.

[LGB]

Finally, how do you explain Matt Leinart? A first round pick who is struggling to hold the backup QB position. Meanwhile, Kurt Warner is lighting up the scoreboard. It the coaching staff enabling Warner, while at the same time it's breaking Leinart?

 

Or is it a case that Warner has what it takes to play in the NFL and Leinart doesn't? And maybe Arizona should have understood that Leinart lacked the committment and leadership needed to play in the NFL, and avoided him in the draft.

You take a good college QB draft him on a crappy team, throw him millions of dollars with someone like Eugene Parker at his side and when it is all said and done, it might be hit or miss if the kid will keep his head on straight and succeed. Maybe a rookie salary cap is not a bad idea.

[jad1]

You take a good college QB draft him on a crappy team, throw him millions of dollars with someone like Eugene Parker at his side and when it is all said and done, it might be hit or miss if the kid will keep his head on straight and succeed. Maybe a rookie salary cap is not a bad idea.

 

Maybe. Or maybe you try to figure out if the guy is more interested in spending his weeknights attending celebrity hot tub parties than studying the playbook and breaking down film.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Maybe. Or maybe you try to figure out if the guy is more interested in spending his weeknights attending celebrity hot tub parties than studying the playbook and breaking down film.

Like Dick's hand picked franchise QB? Cade was a gem. All the strippers loved that guy.

[jad1]

Like Dick's hand picked franchise QB? Cade was a gem. All the strippers loved that guy.

 

[Alaska Darin]

Mouse Davis? Kelly's successful because of the run and shoot?

 

Considering you base your theory that young QBs who take a beating become broken, shell-shocked failures, I find it interesting that you would point to an offensive scheme that Kelly got creamed in the USFL as a reason for his success.

Not surprisingly, Kelly disagrees with you.

 

Article

 

“I could sit here for an hour and tell you all the great things I learned from Mouse Davis and how much fun it was for me,” says another Hall of Famer, quarterback Jim Kelly.

 

“I tell everybody, that’s where I learned the passing game,” Kelly says. “I blew out my shoulder my senior year at Miami, and we didn’t throw the ball a lot. I knew the passing game only to a certain point.”

 

“Mouse helped me throw on the run and showed me the right way to do it, the technique, the footwork. … I never was really fast, but I learned how to move in the pocket, to step up and shuffle right and left to avoid the rush,” Kelly says.

 

“I owe so much to Mouse Davis. To be honest, I wouldn’t have been the NFL quarterback I was if not for Mouse.”

 

Go ahead and read that statement again, genius.

 

But it did almost nothing to protect him or develop him in the way you decribe below with Flacco and Ryan.

 

So what is your point again?

Thanks for showing how little you actually know about the R-n-S.

 

 

Manning's genetic awesomeness? Yeah, you are familiar with the Mannings, right? So let's say Manning doesn't hook up with Tom Moore. Who fades into oblivion, Moore or Manning? Does Moore turn Andre Ware, David Klingler, or Heath Shuler into the best QB in a generation? Does Manning turn into Trent Dilfer playing for some other sub-standard OC?

The answer is no one really knows. Pretending you do is exactly that, pretending. Manning publicly went after Irsay to get Moore back, so he understands the importance of continuity even if you don't.

 

And speaking of Manning genetic awesomeness, what about Eli, who helped the Giants win the Super Bowl. Who's his offensive coordinator?

 

If Gilbride is so great, how come he didn't develop Rob Johnson like he did Manning?

Who said Gilbride is great? The Giants didn't win the Super Bowl because of Manning and at the end of year 3 and early in year 4 their entire fan base was running the guy out of town. The Giants won the Super Bowl because of their tremendous defense and because Manning got lucky.

 

The fact is that Moore and Gilbride are benefiting from the work that Archie Manning did in making his sons NFL-ready straight out of college.

The Giants were 1-6 in games Eli started his first season and his completion percentage was 48. By that standard, Jamal Russell is on his way to a HoF career.

 

Not sure what you're saying here. If you're claiming that good coaching = minimizing pass attempts, well Flacco, Ryan, and Edwards all averaged around 26 pass attempt per game last season.

 

Did the Bills exhibit "smart, stable coaching" by limiting Edwards to the same number of pass attempts that the enlightened coaching staffs of the Ravens and Falcons limited their rookie QBs to?

No and the obvious reason is because they didn't have the running game or defense. Baltimore ran 160 more times last season than the BILLS did. They allowed 98 fewer points. 98. Atlanta ran 121 more times than the BILLS did.

 

Of course, those staffs got more productivity out of their passing game because they have better QBs.

You have a very strange definition of more productivity. The BILLS had more yards per pass play and just as many TDs as Baltimore. Atlanta got an average of 20 YPG more out of their passing and 2 more TDs on the season. Two first downs and one point per game are obviously the difference between mediocrity and greatness. Who knew?

The Jets didn't trade for Edwards because they believe he'll be a good downfield blocker. They'll increase Sanchez's role as the season progresses.

Ah, so the Jets have a plan and are going to expand Sanchez' development as his career goes on? I guess that goes along with Ryan saying he wasn't worried about starting a rookie because the JETS were going to run the ball more than any team in the NFL and win with their defense. Pretty much the same plan the Ravens used with Flacco and the Falcons used with Ryan (at least until the game against Arizona when he took a safety, fumbled a handoff that was returned for a TD, took two sacks, and threw 2 picks when they actually needed him to be a difference maker. I guess that means he was, since his team lost by 6 and he gave up 9 all by himself).

I never claimed I was smarter than anybody, I'm just expressing my observations and trying to back them up with examples.

 

I'm still waiting for your examples, by the way, of young QBs with franchise potential being broken by a poor coaching staff.

 

We can continue to keep the debate one-sided though, me defending my points, until you come up with your list.

Pick any first round QB who didn't make it, ever.

Well let's see. Say the Colts drafted Ryan Leaf instead of Peyton Manning. Does Tom Moore coach him to the greatness that Manning has achieved?

 

Let's say that the Houston Gamblers signed Todd Blackledge instead of Jim Kelly. Does Mouse Davis turn him into a HOF QB?

 

What if Kelly Stouffer was drafted by Don Shula instead of Marino. Does he break the NFL TD record?

 

How about Chuck Long playing for Dan Reeves. Does Denver still go to all those Super Bowls?

 

I stand by my point. No coach in the league could turn guys like Akili Smith, Danny Wufferel, Heath Shuler, David Klingler, or Jamal Russell into NFL starters.

 

Finally, how do you explain Matt Leinart? A first round pick who is struggling to hold the backup QB position. Meanwhile, Kurt Warner is lighting up the scoreboard. It the coaching staff enabling Warner, while at the same time it's breaking Leinart?

 

Or is it a case that Warner has what it takes to play in the NFL and Leinart doesn't? And maybe Arizona should have understood that Leinart lacked the committment and leadership needed to play in the NFL, and avoided him in the draft.

So open up your !@#$ing crystal ball and tell me which college QB the BILLS need to pick next season. It's apparently pretty easy for you and much harder for guys like Bobby Beathard who built both the Dolphins and Redskins dynasties but wasn't as smart as you obviously were on Ryan Leaf.

 

You're also smarter than every GM in the NFL back in 1983 because EVERY ONE of them not named Don Shula passed on Dan Marino, who you knew was a Hall of Famer. You're smarter than Parcells who picked Long over Ryan and smarter than 16 other GMs who passed on Flacco.

[dave mcbride]

If Gilbride is so great, how come he didn't develop Rob Johnson like he did Manning?

 

Gilbride didn't coordinate Rob Johnson - he left for SD while Brunell was still the starter. And he arrived in Buffalo after Johnson was gone. Gilbride is a good coordinator, believe it or not. He's succeeded almost everywhere he has been except for Buffalo (due to the craptastic line) and to a lesser extent Pittsburgh (Kordell - 'nuff said). Come to think of it, the only competent Bills offense this decade was a Gilbride-coordinated one (2002). Of course, he was blamed (like Henning before him) while the real culprit was a terrible offensive line.

[jad1]

Gilbride didn't coordinate Rob Johnson - he left for SD while Brunell was still the starter. And he arrived in Buffalo after Johnson was gone. Gilbride is a good coordinator, believe it or not. He's succeeded almost everywhere he has been except for Buffalo (due to the craptastic line) and to a lesser extent Pittsburgh (Kordell - 'nuff said). Come to think of it, the only competent Bills offense this decade was a Gilbride-coordinated one (2002). Of course, he was blamed (like Henning before him) while the real culprit was a terrible offensive line.

 

Gilbride's problem in Buffalo was the Bledsoe couldn't read a cover 2 defense.

[jad1]

...

Pick any first round QB who didn't make it, ever.

 

So open up your !@#$ing crystal ball and tell me which college QB the BILLS need to pick next season. It's apparently pretty easy for you and much harder for guys like Bobby Beathard who built both the Dolphins and Redskins dynasties but wasn't as smart as you obviously were on Ryan Leaf.

 

You're also smarter than every GM in the NFL back in 1983 because EVERY ONE of them not named Don Shula passed on Dan Marino, who you knew was a Hall of Famer. You're smarter than Parcells who picked Long over Ryan and smarter than 16 other GMs who passed on Flacco.

 

This is turning into a waste of time. You're right, all first round flops are products of bad coaching, they're not bad QBs.

 

If Tom Moore coached Russell in Oakland, we'd be calling him Peyton Manning Jr.

 

And Akili Smith just needed Mouse Davis to come out of retirement to be his OC. It's all Mike Brown's fault for not hiring him.

 

And Mark Sanchez looks like a future QB star because Rex Ryan wants to run the ball 80 times a game.

 

I never thought that I'd have to argue that David Klingler or Heath Shuler were blown draft choice. Who knew I'd run into such an expert on QB development .

 

So tell me genius, do us all a favor and look into your f$%king crystal ball and tell me who the Bills have to hire as OC to turn Trent Edwards into the next Jim Kelly, or Phil Simms, or Joe Montana.

 

Enlighten us.