BAD COACHING....OR EDWARDS SUCKS!?!?!?!

[PDaDdy]

And you know this based on what? What you see? And how do you know what "you see" are attributable to only to Edwards?

 

As Edwards said during the preseason: He plays the way he is coached.

 

Doesn't throw a tight spiral on long balls.

Under throws deep balls.

Over throws or throws high on intermediate routes.

Misses open WR.

Rarely gives WRs a chance to make a play when they are not wide open. (Edwards DID do this in garbage time at the end of the Miami game and gave Lee Evans some opportunities to make plays for him and he did)

At times shows poor pocket presence and takes sack he doesn't have to when he could throw the ball away ala Brady.

[PDaDdy]

I totally understand what you mean, and have thought this also. We can't really know for sure either way. But, it comes down to this: Has the following conversation taken place?

 

Dickie J: Trent, if you don't throw the ball deep on this play and just check down again, I'm benching you, and making you attend bingo night with Ralph this week.

 

 

Obviously that is in jest, but you get the drift. He hasn't forced Edwards to take chances. We know this as fact because Edwards hasn't taken chances. That is bad coaching in my books. Bad QB'ing also, but bad coaching nonetheless.

 

Very plausible. I wonder if EXACTLY that conversation has taken place. It is very close to the very specific question I asked. If Jauron hasn't had that conversation with Trent yet that IS bad coaching in my opinion. Whether Trent follows through or not and obeys or gets benched points to his personal performance again.

 

AVP/Jauron could try to coach me to do those things but it's up to me to execute or not. I'm just not capable. Perhaps Trent isn't either. Where they ARE responsible is making the decision to bench or start me. Unfortunately this doesn't excuse the reasons for why I would suck but at least they would be trying to get what was needed out of me or move on to the next guy.

[Mickey]

This is a serious question I have. It's something that I have heard almost daily since I have been on this board. One of the FAVORITE excuses for Trent's poor performance on the field is bad coaching. It appears to me that that excuse is 100% pure unsubstantiated speculation. My questions are these...

 

Can anyone quantitatively or qualitatively give me any specifics on exactly HOW Edwards is being poorly coached?

Is anyone privy to certain drills he should be running and isn't?

Is anyone privy to what the coaches are telling him to do with the ball?

Does anyone know that he is not being taught how to read 3 - 4 defenses?

Does anyone know that he is not being properly instructed on his pocket presence?

Does anyone know if he is being told to check down even though coaching and the WRs publicly state they have to get the ball down field?

 

To make your point credible please provide specifics as to how he is being poorly coached!!! Questions are not specifics. "Jauron sucks" is not specific. "He wouldn't look like crap on the field if" is not specific.

 

I can say HONESTLY that I don't know one way or the other if Trent is being properly coached. My problem is that many people claim they do but don't really have a clue either.

I don't think its coaching myself but for those that do, they aren't talking just about how they are teaching Trent. "Coaching" includes the individual game plans, the overall scheme, play calling and the personnel. I don't think people who talk about coaching are talking about passing drills.

[DasNootz]

Trent appears to be as uninspired as our head coach... and that is a product of coaching.

 

On top of that, he sucks... either by his own doing, or by offensive design. Look at Aaron Rodgers. His line didn't give him any more protection against the Vikings then Edwards gets on a weekly basis. Meanwhile, he still took shots down field and managed to go over 300 yards passing.

[Cynical]

Doesn't throw a tight spiral on long balls.

Under throws deep balls.

Over throws or throws high on intermediate routes.

Misses open WR.

 

These factors can possibly be fixed with proper coaching. (ie. working with the QB on his footwork, throwing motion, etc ..)

 

Since by your admission, you have no privy what's goes on behind the scenes, you have no way on knowing if Edwards is getting proper coaching (and having no impact), getting bad coaching, or getting no coaching at all (which is essentially "bad" coaching).

 

Therefore, you have no way of showing those attributes happen strictly because Edwards suck.

 

Rarely gives WRs a chance to make a play when they are not wide open. (Edwards DID do this in garbage time at the end of the Miami game and gave Lee Evans some opportunities to make plays for him and he did)

 

Again, by your own admission, you have no privy what goes on behind the scenes.

Therefore, you have no idea what plays were called, what the reads are, etc ....

And because of that, you have no idea if he has been coached NOT to take those chances.

 

Case in point: During his rookie year vs. Baltimore, Trent Edwards threw a pick deep in Bills territory. On this board, Bills fans were pissed the intended WR (Evans) didn't fight for the ball (and thus was not "fighting for his QB").

 

After the game, both Edwards and the coaching admitted, prior to the play, the coaching staff told Edwards NOT to make that throw. We can look back at that play from 2 perspectives:

 

1. Proper coaching that Trent chose to ignore (bad Trent)

2. Trent took a gamble, paid for it then, and is paying for it now because the coaching staff emphasizes "safe" plays over everything else (bad Coaching)

 

I'll repeat what Edwards said during the preseason: He plays the way he is coached.

And considering Edwards has had only ONE head coach his entire NFL career, until the two are separated, there is no real way to determine how much of his bad play is coaching, and how much is him.

[PDaDdy]

These factors can possibly be fixed with proper coaching. (ie. working with the QB on his footwork, throwing motion, etc ..)

 

Since by your admission, you have no privy what's goes on behind the scenes, you have no way on knowing if Edwards is getting proper coaching (and having no impact), getting bad coaching, or getting no coaching at all (which is essentially "bad" coaching).

 

Therefore, you have no way of showing those attributes happen strictly because Edwards suck.

 

Again, by your own admission, you have no privy what goes on behind the scenes.

 

Come on man. I'm trying to see the other side but lets not get ridiculous. Perhaps your goal was to take what you perceived as my strategy in phrasing and approaching the question and use it against me but lets keep it real. If you HONESTLY believe that we don't have someone working with Trent on his "footwork, throwing motion, etc" as you put it I guess your entitled to your opinion. It is, however, akin to claiming that the offensive coordinator hasn't give Trent a play book because you didn't see him hand him one.

 

I'll give you that's it's an assumption but it's one you accept like the concepts of 1 and 0 that all modern math is based on. These "concepts" can't actually be proven but we accept that they work.

 

Therefore, you have no idea what plays were called, what the reads are, etc ....

 

Actually yes I do. When they snap the ball and run them I know with 100% certainty what play was called OR audibled to. Don't forget Trent can change the play if he doesn't like it.

 

And because of that, you have no idea if he has been coached NOT to take those chances.

 

I do know that the coaching staff and Jauron as well as players have said many many times "we had plenty of opportunities but we didn't take advantage them", "we have to get TO and Lee more involved." This sound like the talk of people that are instructed to not take chances and check down constantly? (Would really love an answer although I doubt I will get one)

 

Case in point: During his rookie year vs. Baltimore, Trent Edwards threw a pick deep in Bills territory. On this board, Bills fans were pissed the intended WR (Evans) didn't fight for the ball (and thus was not "fighting for his QB").

 

After the game, both Edwards and the coaching admitted, prior to the play, the coaching staff told Edwards NOT to make that throw. We can look back at that play from 2 perspectives:

 

1. Proper coaching that Trent chose to ignore (bad Trent)

2. Trent took a gamble, paid for it then, and is paying for it now because the coaching staff emphasizes "safe" plays over everything else (bad Coaching)

 

One play does not a precedent of bad coaching make. Not to mention Jauron was justified because Trent threw a pick. Should be self explanatory that he was given good advice advising him against things that cause him to fail.

 

I'll repeat what Edwards said during the preseason: He plays the way he is coached.

And considering Edwards has had only ONE head coach his entire NFL career, until the two are separated, there is no real way to determine how much of his bad play is coaching, and how much is him.

 

I'll reference my point earlier. If I was QB of the Bills and I played the way I was coached can I blame my inevitable horrific failure on bad coaching? Or, is it just that I don't have what it takes?

[The Big Cat]

Being unable/unwilling to throw the ball over a defender's head = a crippling shortcoming for any team/coach to manage.

[pBills]

Doesn't throw a tight spiral on long balls.

Under throws deep balls.

Over throws or throws high on intermediate routes.

Misses open WR.

Rarely gives WRs a chance to make a play when they are not wide open. (Edwards DID do this in garbage time at the end of the Miami game and gave Lee Evans some opportunities to make plays for him and he did)

At times shows poor pocket presence and takes sack he doesn't have to when he could throw the ball away ala Brady.

 

 

You must be a QB Coach or you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[Fan in San Diego]

This is a serious question I have. It's something that I have heard almost daily since I have been on this board. One of the FAVORITE excuses for Trent's poor performance on the field is bad coaching. It appears to me that that excuse is 100% pure unsubstantiated speculation. My questions are these...

 

Can anyone quantitatively or qualitatively give me any specifics on exactly HOW Edwards is being poorly coached?

Is anyone privy to certain drills he should be running and isn't?

Is anyone privy to what the coaches are telling him to do with the ball?

Does anyone know that he is not being taught how to read 3 - 4 defenses?

Does anyone know that he is not being properly instructed on his pocket presence?

Does anyone know if he is being told to check down even though coaching and the WRs publicly state they have to get the ball down field?

 

To make your point credible please provide specifics as to how he is being poorly coached!!! Questions are not specifics. "Jauron sucks" is not specific. "He wouldn't look like crap on the field if" is not specific.

 

I can say HONESTLY that I don't know one way or the other if Trent is being properly coached. My problem is that many people claim they do but don't really have a clue either.

 

We dont have to be privy to the specifics. The coaches see what we see, it's their job to correct any problems. If the problems are not being corrected it is bad coaching.

[renfruzetz]

I can say HONESTLY that I don't know one way or the other if Trent is being properly coached as I am not at practice everyday nor am I qualified to make that determination. My opinion is 100% pure speculation based on games I watch and numbers.

 

.423- DJ's career winning percentage

4%- DJ's current approval rating on ESPN poll

1-11- 2009 combined record of teams who fired OC just before season

0- number of NFL starts by 3 of our linemen at the beginning of the season

90%- percentage of Jauron coached Bills games that I feel like he made at least one poor game day decision

 

I look at these numbers and can only conclude Dick is a BAD coach.

 

I'd say 75% bad coaching/25% Trent sucks.

[The Big Cat]

I can say HONESTLY that I don't know one way or the other if Trent is being properly coached as I am not at practice everyday nor am I qualified to make that determination. My opinion is 100% pure speculation based on games I watch and numbers.

 

.423- DJ's career winning percentage

4%- DJ's current approval rating on ESPN poll

1-11- 2009 combined record of teams who fired OC just before season

0- number of NFL starts by 3 of our linemen at the beginning of the season

90%- percentage of Jauron coached Bills games that I feel like he made at least one poor game day decision

 

I look at these numbers and can only conclude Dick is a BAD coach.

 

I'd say 75% bad coaching/25% Trent sucks.

 

Then do you equate player greatness with coaching greatness?

[PDaDdy]

You must be a QB Coach or you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

Do you disagree with any of those statements? All we need do is look as far back as the Miami game for an EXCELLENT example of each of the points that I brought up that weren't attributable to coaching.

[PDaDdy]

We dont have to be privy to the specifics. The coaches see what we see, it's their job to correct any problems. If the problems are not being corrected it is bad coaching.

 

I will agree with you on this point. If the coaches DON'T replace Edwards...that is bad coaching. These guys make millions a year. If we see the problem I'm going to assume they see it too and have/are attempting to address it. If Trent isn't responding time for him to take a seat.

[PDaDdy]

I can say HONESTLY that I don't know one way or the other if Trent is being properly coached as I am not at practice everyday nor am I qualified to make that determination. My opinion is 100% pure speculation based on games I watch and numbers.

 

.423- DJ's career winning percentage

4%- DJ's current approval rating on ESPN poll

1-11- 2009 combined record of teams who fired OC just before season

0- number of NFL starts by 3 of our linemen at the beginning of the season

90%- percentage of Jauron coached Bills games that I feel like he made at least one poor game day decision

 

I look at these numbers and can only conclude Dick is a BAD coach.

 

I'd say 75% bad coaching/25% Trent sucks.

 

It is a little yin but I think it's more yang. Jauron led teams have not fared well looking at his record. I am specifically speaking to Trent's game day performances and measurables. These can be impacted by coaching but Dick Jauron doesn't throw the football. AVP doesn't tell Trent to NOT throw the ball to WRs that are open.

 

This is part of the problem with our society. NO personal accountability....I'm screwed up because my parents sucked...I robbed the liquor store because I was abused as a child.

[PDaDdy]

Then do you equate player greatness with coaching greatness?

 

Of course he doesn't. Great players succeed because they are great players. Bad players, specifically Trent Edwards, fail because of bad coaching.

 

Didn't you get the memo on the double standard.

[K-9]

We dont have to be privy to the specifics. The coaches see what we see, it's their job to correct any problems. If the problems are not being corrected it is bad coaching.

 

I assure you, the coaches see WAY more than we see. They also have the context of the playcall to frame their critique.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Cynical]

Come on man. I'm trying to see the other side but lets not get ridiculous. Perhaps your goal was to take what you perceived as my strategy in phrasing and approaching the question and use it against me but lets keep it real. If you HONESTLY believe that we don't have someone working with Trent on his "footwork, throwing motion, etc" as you put it I guess your entitled to your opinion. It is, however, akin to claiming that the offensive coordinator hasn't give Trent a play book because you didn't see him hand him one.

 

I'll give you that's it's an assumption but it's one you accept like the concepts of 1 and 0 that all modern math is based on. These "concepts" can't actually be proven but we accept that they work.

 

I gave the 3 obvious options. Even if we do agree Trent is getting some kind of coaching, we have no idea if it's good or bad.

 

Actually yes I do. When they snap the ball and run them I know with 100% certainty what play was called OR audibled to. Don't forget Trent can change the play if he doesn't like it.

 

Yes, he can.

Question: What framework is Trent using to make the decision to change the play?

Answer: The same framework the coaches have been using.

Problem: If the audible fails, was it because of Trent, or was it because the framework he is using?

 

I do know that the coaching staff and Jauron as well as players have said many many times "we had plenty of opportunities but we didn't take advantage them"(1), "we have to get TO and Lee more involved." This sound like the talk of people that are instructed to not take chances and check down constantly? (Would really love an answer although I doubt I will get one)(2)

 

1. Just recently, AVP blamed himself for not adjusting to what was on the field, and taking advantage of the opportunities being presented. (Saints game I believe?)

Issue: AVP is the OC/QB Coach, and trying to work within the constraints and scheme dictated by the head coach. AVP is also the guy directly working with Trent Edwards.

 

2. What is the overall concept Jauron has been pushing since he has been here? Turn overs and field position. IIRC, he even mentioned these two things when he first took the HC job. If you honestly think Jauron and staff does NOT emphasize "Do Not Turn the Ball Over", there are numerous coaching decisions over the years that emphasize those tenets we can go back and look at, and I seriously doubt those decisions had anything to do with his QB.

 

One play does not a precedent of bad coaching make.(1) Not to mention Jauron was justified because Trent threw a pick. Should be self explanatory that he was given good advice advising him against things that cause him to fail.(2)

 

1. No, one play does not. However, Jauron has been a HC for 8+ years. How is his track record?

2. He was justified when the play ended in an INT. Would he have been justified if Evans caught the ball? How about if the pass was incomplete?

 

Your reply still did not refute the evidence: Jauron and staff told Edwards NOT to throw a pass they considered "risky".

 

I'll reference my point earlier. If I was QB of the Bills and I played the way I was coached can I blame my inevitable horrific failure on bad coaching? Or, is it just that I don't have what it takes?

 

Only an "insider" who has privy to personal information and what is going on can answer that question.

Us "outsiders" can only look at the "evidence we see".

And unfortunately, bad coaching looks pretty much like bad playing.

In short, properly executed bulls*** looks exactly like s***.

 

Like I said earlier, the only way to determine how much is on the coaches and how much is on Edwards, we will need to separate the two to find out.

For the record: I am not sold on Edwards as a starting QB. But if I had to choose option or the other, given Jauron's less than stellar history, I'm willing to jettison the HC before throwing Edwards on the trash heap.

[billrooter]

This is a serious question I have. It's something that I have heard almost daily since I have been on this board. One of the FAVORITE excuses for Trent's poor performance on the field is bad coaching. It appears to me that that excuse is 100% pure unsubstantiated speculation. My questions are these...

 

Can anyone quantitatively or qualitatively give me any specifics on exactly HOW Edwards is being poorly coached?

Is anyone privy to certain drills he should be running and isn't?

Is anyone privy to what the coaches are telling him to do with the ball?

Does anyone know that he is not being taught how to read 3 - 4 defenses?

Does anyone know that he is not being properly instructed on his pocket presence?

Does anyone know if he is being told to check down even though coaching and the WRs publicly state they have to get the ball down field?

 

To make your point credible please provide specifics as to how he is being poorly coached!!! Questions are not specifics. "Jauron sucks" is not specific. "He wouldn't look like crap on the field if" is not specific.

 

I can say HONESTLY that I don't know one way or the other if Trent is being properly coached. My problem is that many people claim they do but don't really have a clue either.

I am thinking both also but wouldn't it be shameful if Edwards and Losman were wasted through pathetic coaching? Losman had good legs and a good deep ball but lacked reading defenses and with touch, but who knows!

[Fan in San Diego]

I assure you, the coaches see WAY more than we see. They also have the context of the playcall to frame their critique.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I agree, but a lack of any improvement over 4 years reflects bad coaching and FO drafting. IMHO.

[School 62]

I totally understand what you mean, and have thought this also. We can't really know for sure either way. But, it comes down to this: Has the following conversation taken place?

 

Dickie J: Trent, if you don't throw the ball deep on this play and just check down again, I'm benching you, and making you attend bingo night with Ralph this week.

 

 

Obviously that is in jest, but you get the drift. He hasn't forced Edwards to take chances. We know this as fact because Edwards hasn't taken chances. That is bad coaching in my books. Bad QB'ing also, but bad coaching nonetheless.

 

 

As a fan who just gets to watch the games from a dish in Oregon, I have no accurate information about what is going on between the head coach and the QB. I can only pass on my observation that Edwards looks jittery, like Bledsoe looked jittery. Big Ben in Pittsburgh, Manning boys, Brady: all seem to operate in a cloud of calm. Trent looks like he's about to have his doors blown off. It is not very scientific, but at the very basic level of observation.