bartshan-83 Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Trying not to be ND biased, I'd take Clausen in a heartbeat. The arguments that his competition level is often suspect and that he plays with talent in a stacked system have some merit. But in terms of measurables, the guy is ridiculous. He's tough, moves well in the pocket and is absolutely surgical with the football. Taking away the Purdue game where he could hardly walk, he's missed on like 10 throws all year. If Floyd hadn't gotten hurt (vs. Mich and Mich St.), his numbers would be even better and we'd likely be 5-0. He's gutsy, tough, clutch and has a cannon. He's already better than Brady Quinn was at ND and he's still improving. Now about Jake Locker...I love him. I think it sucks he wasted away for two years on those terrible Washington teams. He's a great leader and excellent athlete. But I don't see how anyone who watched ND vs. Washington last week could come away with the idea that Clausen was the worse pro-prospect. Locker just doesn't have the arm. He doesn't have the accuracy and I'm not sure he has the strength (although I'm no scout). And ND's defense is soft...AGAIN. They tightened up in epic fashion for those goal line stands but they have let teams walk up and down the field all year. Locker didn't do anything that Forcier, Elliott and Cousins didn't do the previous three weeks. So at the risk of promoting an ND guy AND another SoCal kid, I'd heavily lobby for Clausen if Edwards can't put it together and the Bills were in a position to take him.
McBeane Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 I think Jake Locker is looking like the answer. He has impressed me every time I see him. He can make all the throws that are required to make in the NFL, he is smart, and he actually throws the ball. If I were the FO, I would make any move necessary to draft this guy.
balln Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Shouldnt you be out scouting then? I mean it is football season Well I am a college scout. Worked with guys that did NFL. You get assigned to a region - and certain set of schools. You don't scout practices (until senior bowl, pro days, combine) which today tuesday being a practice day. We actually rarely go to a lot of games physically (unless it is close and their are a lot of players there). Most tapes, film, TV. Cold weather is a factor - (back in the day the big ten was awesoeme - brees at purdue, brady at umich, harbaugh at umich) But there isnt a lot of weight to it. No one could predict that Favre would be so good in cold weather if you just looked at he was a missippii kid that went to SM. If the guy is just fiery and psychologically on point he could throw a lubed up football in -20 degree weather. Aikmen was at OU ad UCLA from that area. And Brady is from CA high school. It really doesnt matter. It is the player.
balln Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 I think Jake Locker is looking like the answer. He has impressed me every time I see him. He can make all the throws that are required to make in the NFL, he is smart, and he actually throws the ball. If I were the FO, I would make any move necessary to draft this guy. The above poster is right. Head to head is nice. In Locker I see a lot of similarities to a Jamarcus Russell (Jake runs though). Not good enough accuracy. Clausen last two years - I would have said no way. Over hyped in hs. Remember Paulis was Gatorade PLayer of the Year (hype) but he took a Duke bball scholarship to sit on the bench his junior and senior yr b/c he was not getting the offers from the schools that merrit attention for the Gatorade Player of the Year. And he is not good. But Clausen is getting better - really like the Purdue last drive - really good. But he is a weaker Brady Quinn - not to say Quinn is no good (more of Browsn organizational issues). And Quinn was hyped so much in college- deservedly so. I wouldn't recommend Clausen (maybe 6th round). Everyone knew Matt Ryan was going to be good. Flacco is a bit of a surprise, but he is doing in Balt exactly what he did at Del. Steady, steady, steady. Big arm. He is just starting to look off guys, and pump fake and fine tune his accuracy. Case Keenum is for real.
bartshan-83 Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Clausen last two years - I would have said no way. Over hyped in hs. Remember Paulis was Gatorade PLayer of the Year (hype) but he took a Duke bball scholarship to sit on the bench his junior and senior yr b/c he was not getting the offers from the schools that merrit attention for the Gatorade Player of the Year. And he is not good. But Clausen is getting better - really like the Purdue last drive - really good. But he is a weaker Brady Quinn - not to say Quinn is no good (more of Browsn organizational issues). And Quinn was hyped so much in college- deservedly so. I wouldn't recommend Clausen (maybe 6th round). If you are a scout, you surely know what you are looking at more clearly than I. However, there is nothing about Clausen's tools or progression that is inferior to Brady Quinn's IMO. They were both tossed into bad situations as true freshmen and both struggled. The difference is Clausen was starting to put it all together last year until Floyd got hurt and we blew UNC. He lost his handle on everything for the rest of the season until putting it together in the bowl game. Since then, he has been nothing but brilliant. Brady had a weak sophomore year and if Weis never came around, he might not even be in the NFL. He stuggled for the first part of his JR year as well before putting it together around the USC game. But a lot of his success was on jump balls to 6'5" WRs (Samardzija and Stovall) and he always struggled on the short balls. In my fan opinion, Jimmy is on a way higher path than Brady ever was...and that's not a knock on Brady. He was great for almost two full years at ND, but I had doubts about his pro-potential. I agree that the results thus far are not very fair for him, but I don't see an All-Pro future. I think Clausen could achieve that in the right system. On another note, Michael Floyd is sure thing. SURE THING. His only red flag is his injury history...but he's another Larry Fitz.
Andrew in CA Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 This "fix the O-line" crap to excuse Edwards play is rediculous. Good QB's find a way to play well despite their O-lines. The Steelers and Green Bay are good examples of that, they both have bad O-lines, yet Big Ben and Rogers play very well and put their teams in positions to win. You're right, let's keep drafting QB's and filling up the line with retreads and no-names until we hit one that takes us to the top! I'm not excusing TE's play at all. He's played very poorly, and would probably be only slightly better behind a better line.
SouthernMan Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 seriously this is a stupid thread but the bills need a 1st rounder to get back into things.. Please I want MCCOY... Thank you Mrs. McCoy, But the Bills won't be needing your boy. Yeah, that's what we need, a 6-2, 210 lb QB who'll be 24 years old at the start of next season.
balln Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 If you are a scout, you surely know what you are looking at more clearly than I. However, there is nothing about Clausen's tools or progression that is inferior to Brady Quinn's IMO. They were both tossed into bad situations as true freshmen and both struggled. The difference is Clausen was starting to put it all together last year until Floyd got hurt and we blew UNC. He lost his handle on everything for the rest of the season until putting it together in the bowl game. Since then, he has been nothing but brilliant. Brady had a weak sophomore year and if Weis never came around, he might not even be in the NFL. He stuggled for the first part of his JR year as well before putting it together around the USC game. But a lot of his success was on jump balls to 6'5" WRs (Samardzija and Stovall) and he always struggled on the short balls. In my fan opinion, Jimmy is on a way higher path than Brady ever was...and that's not a knock on Brady. He was great for almost two full years at ND, but I had doubts about his pro-potential. I agree that the results thus far are not very fair for him, but I don't see an All-Pro future. I think Clausen could achieve that in the right system. On another note, Michael Floyd is sure thing. SURE THING. His only red flag is his injury history...but he's another Larry Fitz. Floyd is sure thing. I see the fitz comparison. I like there TEs. Really sure about Clausen - thats his #1 throw the 35-40 yd jump ball fade.? I didn't see the ND v wash game. His umich and mich st. games were good. Inconsistent. His last drive against Purdue makes you move him up your board significantly. He is definitely progressing - but his elbow worries me - it drops some times and his balls float - i remember having elbow injuries early - loses velocity. Jay Cutler and Rodgers absolutely have the best "form" for throwing a football. Unrelated - I think the Bills had a sweet & sour draft. OMG wood is a freakishly good talent (everyone wanted him) and levitre too. But Maybin at #11 wasn't the pick - he is good athlete, he is like Derrick Thomas LB/DE speed rusher. Not a good rusher in terms of hands, techniques. Really undersized. He is a rookie tho and DEs get better in the NFL after rookie years. Byrd was a reach - but will be good (his tackling sucks right now - its due to him being rookie and missing camp - b/c he tackled well in college). But their Mckelvin pick at 11 last year was again the wrong pick haha. Talib all day. Their reasoning was that Mckelvin could return kicks too so his deficiency in covering tech/hands would overcome Talib's superior skills. Pick the guy who will be the better player at their position in first round - can't justify for his return abilities.
balln Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 You're right, let's keep drafting QB's and filling up the line with retreads and no-names until we hit one that takes us to the top! I'm not excusing TE's play at all. He's played very poorly, and would probably be only slightly better behind a better line. Right! OL and DL first last and always. I would tend to always stack my team with DL - giants, pats, titans, ravens, vikings all have great drafts and signings w/ DL and it pays off. But the post was about who are good QB prospects. I loved the edwards pick - but he was a calculated gamble - did not see enough of him in college (injured). Believe it or not JP is like a shorter Flacco, I guarantee if the current Ravens drafted JP they would be as good. Bills organization is not good. The Bills just have too many holes - really need DE help last year- and they still do. Still could use another DT. Def need stud strong side LB. I don't like whitner at free safety i am sorry but he does not stop TE down the pipe to help out the LBs. And we know they need OL. God help thim if they get another injury at T or even G/C. Mckinney is real bad. I like this GB kid though. But all these players are so raw.
billsfan89 Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 A great QB is terrible behind a bad OL. A great OL makes a bad QB above average. OL first. QB second. It all depends on how well the line plays down the stretch. Honestly if Bell improves and the interior O-line gels and plays like they have in games past than this team's draft might be different. Also Edwards play could change this teams view of the draft lets say he plays better than once again our draft situation changes. I honestly think if we are picking somewhere around 11 again a defensive player is the way we will go with offensive line in the second round (RT). OLB or DE/DT is the way we could go if the O-line shows to be improving with time (Did anyone honestly think after 2 good showings that there weren't going to be any growing pains?) and Edwards proves to be something serviceable (I still think they could go QB but if we are 7-9 and picking at 11 there might not be a top QB on the board). So lets let the 2009 season play out before we start thinking what and who to draft.
PDaDdy Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 I agree, GBay would be winning if it weren't for their porous line. Thank you for providing an example of poor line play = loss. It IS a great example though of GREAT QB play behind a bad line. When you get your opportunities you have to make the most of them. Trent squanders them and throws bad balls or just checks it down until the game is WELL out of hand in the 4th quarter. Imagine if he had attempted and made a few of those long completions in the first quarter when it could have backed off the coverage on his preferred check down throws.
Gordio Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 I can't believe no one has mentioned this kid from Houston - Case Keenum (pronounced casey). QB is ticky scouting assignment. Everyone here is naming big school popular QBs. Look at the guy and see if A)he can make NFL throws, B)good pocket presence, C)moves the ball up and down the field, D)is he good or product of the system?, E)just makes plays, F)wins G)size, H)good knowledge of time (internal clock, knows D&D, TOs, etc).That is how you scout for NFL QBs. Tebow - are you kidding me? he is not an NFL QB (fails A, C, D). He is not at all fast enough to be a wildcat QB either. Snead- hes OK - not franchise. hyped too much Mccoy - hes average, hyped too much Forcier - kind of like Tebow, he will be a great college player but not an NFL arm. too small in general the big ten is a joke - and ND plays lots of the big ten so I don't look at good performance from QBs that play these teams. Pike - I really like him, but I think he is like Harrell, Daniels - product of the spread. I think he is better than those two though Bradford - hes better than OK, dont know if hes franchise - kind of like deer in headlights, has really good players around him big 12 teams don't play defense Keenum - just watch him, A-H, not to mention he is fiery and a great leader. Also he is very athletic, can run well. Runs a spread like offense, but he is not a product of the system - as a frosh everyone at houston was like OMG we have a steal. *Yes I am a scout I did think of him & then I remembered he plays in the same conference as that (*^*&%^$^#Losman did. No thanks.
Armchair GM Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 seriously this is a stupid thread but the bills need a 1st rounder to get back into things.. Please I want MCCOY... I'll take Tebow anyday! Simply put, dude is a WINNER!
Chris in Syracuse Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 [Jake Locker and Tony Pike are the only good QBs in this draft. They would be perfect for Buffalo given the conditions they play in and they need blue chippers to carry them. I like Jimmy Clausen fron Notre dame
Maddog69 Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 The whole Oline thing seems to be lost on you. I don't think anyone here thinks the Bills are a QB away from being great. Everyone understands that we need OL help. My opinion is that Franchise QB's (especially those drafted high in the draft) can re-invigorate a languishing franchise. I would love to see the Bills get an exicting new coach (we probably won't go with a big name but hopefully someone we can get excited about) and I would love it if we ended up drafting high enough this year to get our franchise QB. Sure there is a chance he is a bust, but this team needs some excitement and some leadership. Trent is not the guy to lead this team back to respectability. I don't know enough about the college QB's to have an opinion on who is the best. I will leave that to the experts. I think O-linemen are easier to find than Franchise QBs. If we draft in the top 5, I want us to take a shot at our new leader. We will still have lots more picks to address the line and don't forget about free agency. The achilles heel of my whole argument is that if Ralph does not completely clean house in the front office, I have absolutely no faith that they will choose the right HC, Coaching staff, draft picks and free agents. I was successfully able to get myself excited and depressed in one post.
May Day 10 Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 do we have the 'seeds' of a decent to good offensive line with Levitre, Wood, and Butler?
reddogblitz Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Does the fact that Colt McCoy is being mentored by HOF QB Roger Staubach sway anyone's opinion of him? Makes me think twice. Roger knows how to play QB in the NFL and win in the NFL.
PDaDdy Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 I would rather us draft some freakin' tackles. Getting a QB won't help at all with this line we have. If we draft a tackle in the first round Russ Brandon should be kicked square in the nuts. With how high our draft pick could be we would have to pay Jason Peters 2 time pro bowl money to a completely untested rookie. CAN YOU SAY DUMB AS HELL!??!?!?!
PDaDdy Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Considering how many 1st rounders we have spent on QBs over the years, I don't think the front office is much of a hurry to get another "top" QB. We have wasted first rounders on Losman, Johnson, and Bledsoe. And really, I don't think they solved our QB problems. We have become a team where QBs come to die. I think we should solve the problem of why QBs have so much trouble here, rather than sacrificing another QB to the pit. Even though those 3 probably didn't have a good chance of success, we made it much worse for them. There in lies the problem. We only used one of those picks in the actual draft. We gave away first round picks for Johnson and Bledsoe. We should have spent those on rookie QB prospects. Perhaps we might have hit on one and we wouldn't constantly be dealing with crap.
PDaDdy Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 I've got a GREAT plan. How about we take a look at the top 3 QBs as ranked by the draft pundits. Find the one with a BIG, not just "adequate" arm, some physical size, some "escape-ability", has overcome some adversity, has played in a PRO offense and a wonderlic score that proves he is not brain dead!! If you find these qualities in one guy and don't compromise I think you have a great chance of minimizing your chance of getting a bust. A question I keep asking myself is a difficult one. If you could somehow qualitatively rank QBs like great, good, avg, below avg and poor I would love to see on average what round/pick the QBs that fall into those categories were drafted. NO I don't mean QB rating as it is only part of the puzzle. Ball-less checkdown artists with good completion numbers can cheat that system. It seems to me that all of the new QBs worth a damn are all first round guys. Perhaps a 2nd rounder or 2 in there for variety. Why do we think we can win with a 3rd round QB? Tom Bradys only come around once in a blue moon. There are of course exceptions but generally guys go late because they aren't as good or don't have as much potential as the guys that go before them. Just because there are exceptions we shouldn't invalidate the rule! Draft a QB EARLY for the BEST chance of success.
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