Red Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Maybe because people like you keep supporting it!! Thanks for your participation. Or perhaps because "people like you" keep writing jack @$$ replies...
Thurman#1 Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Just found some interesting stuff at profootballfocus.com I'm not entirely comfortable with them yet, but I think they're working hard at what they do and they're definitely a good starting point for discussion, at a minimum. I'd been looking at stats for Jason Peters and Bell, and I thought I'd check up on the other Bills o-line guys. What I found is horrifying. They arrange their stats so that a score of zero is average. CENTER: Hangartner is 40th out of 41 centers at -11.5. Ouch. I hadn't thought he was having that bad of a season. GUARD: Of all guards, left and right, Wood is tied for 37th, with a score of .02. Not bad for a young rookie, really. However, Levitre is 73rd at -3.8, which just isn't very good. TACKLE: First, the good news. With a score of +3.3, Butler is tied for 13th out of all tackles, left and right. That is very good, and helps show why the line has gotten worse since he was injured. When he was injured last year, it also hurt us badly. Scott is tied for 86th at -10.2. Man, that is just not good. Chambers is 87th at -10.3. Again, ouch. And now for the bad news. Bell is 95th out of 95, in sole possession of last place, with a shocking score of -20.9. The #94 guy, Levi Brown (ouch, again) is -16.4, the #93 guy, Mike Gandy (ouch again) is -13.9. Bell is much worse than the guys ranked just above him. Bell's score, -20.9, is the worst at all OL positions, and the second-worst score in the league is -16.5. And for comparison's sake, Jason Peters is ranked 2nd best of all tackles with a score of +8.8. This just isn't a good situation. But you can certainly see why people aren't respecting our line.
Thurman#1 Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Or perhaps because "people like you" keep writing jack @$$ replies... Absolutely. We are both supporting it. Thing is, you don't enjoy it. But again, thanks for your support.
LancasterSteve Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Hey Steve, I'm a bit younger than you, but my memory is already on it's way out. I definitely don't place ALL the blame on Russ. Peters deserves his share, and particularly for that thing about not answering phone calls. That was idiotic. But you say that Russ wanted to give him a better contract. The question, and I'm sure you already realize this but it's worth repeating, is how much better. The Bills offered around $6 - $7 mill per year at the beginning of this off-season. If I pick up the phone and listen to that offer, I would have wished I hadn't wasted the time of having the conversation. The time to offer $8 or $9 mill was right after the season in 2007. The Bills screwed the pooch by not being more proactive in resigning Peters. Peters sees the Bills sign free agent offensive linemen for mega bucks. Sees Scholbel, Kelsey and others resigned to mega contracts. Wether in fans minds, Peters deserved to go to the Pro-Bowl or not; he was. Peters agent was probably inflating Peter's ego beyond reality. While, by all accounts it seems that Brandon, a very raw GM at best, underestimated (by a lot I might add) Peter's true value. Besides QB, the most important position on offense is LT. If your lucky enough to get a good one, you pay him and plug him in there for the next 10 years. Our inexperienced quasi GM for all the excuses he uttered at the Bills Booster meeting blew it. Maybe, just maybe a seasoned GM would have been proactive at an earlier date; but then again if there had been a top notch GM in place instead of Levy, we most likely don't bring in under preforming, orverpaid lineman. Peters had a new contract (very inexpensive for a LT) in place but after making the Pro-Bowl, seeing two new linemen in Dockery and Walker receive 6 and 7 million before playing one down; Peters had to be pi$$ed. Unfortunatley, talent evaluation either of FA of other teams or value of their own players has taken a nosedive ever since John Butler left, taking with him half the front office involved with player evaluation, let alone most of the scouts.
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 The Bills screwed the pooch by not being more proactive in resigning Peters. Peters sees the Bills sign free agent offensive linemen for mega bucks. Sees Scholbel, Kelsey and others resigned to mega contracts. Wether in fans minds, Peters deserved to go to the Pro-Bowl or not; he was. Peters agent was probably inflating Peter's ego beyond reality. While, by all accounts it seems that Brandon, a very raw GM at best, underestimated (by a lot I might add) Peter's true value. Besides QB, the most important position on offense is LT. If your lucky enough to get a good one, you pay him and plug him in there for the next 10 years. Our inexperienced quasi GM for all the excuses he uttered at the Bills Booster meeting blew it. Maybe, just maybe a seasoned GM would have been proactive at an earlier date; but then again if there had been a top notch GM in place instead of Levy, we most likely don't bring in under preforming, orverpaid lineman. Peters had a new contract (very inexpensive for a LT) in place but after making the Pro-Bowl, seeing two new linemen in Dockery and Walker receive 6 and 7 million before playing one down; Peters had to be pi$$ed. Unfortunatley, talent evaluation either of FA of other teams or value of their own players has taken a nosedive ever since John Butler left, taking with him half the front office involved with player evaluation, let alone most of the scouts. Brandon will never admit it of course, but Parker played him for a fool and ultimately got exactly what his client wanted. As to your last statement and using the data in a Thurman post above: trading the #2 tackle in the NFL and replacing him with the #95 tackle (dead last) is about as bad of a talent self-evaluation as you can possibly get by definition.
PDaDdy Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Brandon will never admit it of course, but Parker played him for a fool and ultimately got exactly what his client wanted. As to your last statement and using the data in a Thurman post above: trading the #2 tackle in the NFL and replacing him with the #95 tackle (dead last) is about as bad of a talent self-evaluation as you can possibly get by definition. Hey, at least we saved some money and spent it on...Uh... LOL
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Just found some interesting stuff at profootballfocus.com I'm not entirely comfortable with them yet, but I think they're working hard at what they do and they're definitely a good starting point for discussion, at a minimum. I'd been looking at stats for Jason Peters and Bell, and I thought I'd check up on the other Bills o-line guys. What I found is horrifying. They arrange their stats so that a score of zero is average. CENTER: Hangartner is 40th out of 41 centers at -11.5. Ouch. I hadn't thought he was having that bad of a season. GUARD: Of all guards, left and right, Wood is tied for 37th, with a score of .02. Not bad for a young rookie, really. However, Levitre is 73rd at -3.8, which just isn't very good. TACKLE: First, the good news. With a score of +3.3, Butler is tied for 13th out of all tackles, left and right. That is very good, and helps show why the line has gotten worse since he was injured. When he was injured last year, it also hurt us badly. Scott is tied for 86th at -10.2. Man, that is just not good. Chambers is 87th at -10.3. Again, ouch. And now for the bad news. Bell is 95th out of 95, in sole possession of last place, with a shocking score of -20.9. The #94 guy, Levi Brown (ouch, again) is -16.4, the #93 guy, Mike Gandy (ouch again) is -13.9. Bell is much worse than the guys ranked just above him. Bell's score, -20.9, is the worst at all OL positions, and the second-worst score in the league is -16.5. And for comparison's sake, Jason Peters is ranked 2nd best of all tackles with a score of +8.8. This just isn't a good situation. But you can certainly see why people aren't respecting our line. Interesting site, Thurman. I found the data on defense interesting. The Colts, the Tampa-2 blueprint that the Bills seem to (badly) be trying to follow, have the #1 and #2 4-3 DEs at 15.1 and 13.3. The Bills best DE is Denney and he's ranked #75 at -1.8. Our #1 pick is is ranked #97 at -6.2. (Kelsay and Schobel are #80 and #82.) Kawika Mitchell is ranked last among 4-3 OLBs at a -8.8. Buggs is one of the worst MLBs going. Mitchell is hardly any better. Stroud is ranked #93 at -2.1. According to this, the Bills front 7 is a pile of garbage.
PDaDdy Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Interesting site, Thurman. I found the data on defense interesting. The Colts, the Tampa-2 blueprint that the Bills seem to (badly) be trying to follow, have the #1 and #2 4-3 DEs at 15.1 and 13.3. The Bills best DE is Denney and he's ranked #75 at -1.8. Our #1 pick is is ranked #97 at -6.2. (Kelsay and Schobel are #80 and #82.) Kawika Mitchell is ranked last among 4-3 OLBs at a -8.8. Buggs is one of the worst MLBs going. Mitchell is hardly any better. Stroud is ranked #93 at -2.1. According to this, the Bills front 7 is a pile of garbage. The defense has shown some signs here and there which I will dare to say at the risk of personal injury is the coaching staff getting what they can out of them. The talent is what the talent is and we don't have much if any "star" power. I am tired of the Jauron era too but take a minute to stop and think of what he and AVP have to work with on the offensive line. When their not getting penalties 1 out of every 4 plays they do give Trent enough time often enough to do something with the ball. Hell consider both sides of the ball for that matter.
BillsVet Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Brandon will never admit it of course, but Parker played him for a fool and ultimately got exactly what his client wanted. As to your last statement and using the data in a Thurman post above: trading the #2 tackle in the NFL and replacing him with the #95 tackle (dead last) is about as bad of a talent self-evaluation as you can possibly get by definition. And would it surprise anyone that Brandon remains the GM after this season is over? I guess they like continuity without accountability. When was the last time a LT in his prime was traded? Leave it to the Bills to be the first ones because they seem to know better than the other 31 teams in the NFL.
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 The defense has shown some signs here and there which I will dare to say at the risk of personal injury is the coaching staff getting what they can out of them. The talent is what the talent is and we don't have much if any "star" power. I am tired of the Jauron era too but take a minute to stop and think of what he and AVP have to work with on the offensive line. When their not getting penalties 1 out of every 4 plays they do give Trent enough time often enough to do something with the ball. Hell consider both sides of the ball for that matter. WTF are you talking about? I've been saying this line was going to be a mess for many months now and was being called a "bad fan" for not drinking the kool-aid about Langston Walker "easily" flipping to LT and being an "upgrade". My post was about the defense. The ostriches don't want to hear it, I know. The defense looked "great", especially compared to the offense, and particularly against Tampa and Cleveland (the 26th and 31st best offenses and both worse than our own which is 25th) and got blasted for over 460 yds on the ground by the Saints and Dolphins. I know, I know. Let's play the injury excuse card...
PDaDdy Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 And would it surprise anyone that Brandon remains the GM after this season is over? I guess they like continuity without accountability. When was the last time a LT in his prime was traded? Leave it to the Bills to be the first ones because they seem to know better than the other 31 teams in the NFL. Ummm....uhhhhh....yep....can't recall. Hey we blaze our own trail! The other 31 teams in the NFL will soon follow step in an attempt to duplicate our success!
PDaDdy Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 WTF are you talking about? I've been saying this line was going to be a mess for many months now and was being called a "bad fan" for not drinking the kool-aid about Langston Walker "easily" flipping to LT and being an "upgrade". My post was about the defense. The ostriches don't want to hear it, I know. The defense looked "great", especially compared to the offense, and particularly against Tampa and Cleveland (the 26th and 31st best offenses and both worse than our own which is 25th) and got blasted for over 460 yds on the ground by the Saints and Dolphins. I know, I know. Let's play the injury excuse card... I was just making a comparison about the o-line seeing as how it is a Jason Peters thread. I'm tired of it and share your frustrations but COME ON MAN, you HAVE to admit that that having almost 50% of your starting lineup and even more supposedly valuable depth is going to have a HUGE HUGE HUGE impact on your on field performance. I know you want to blame someone and make it stick but the sad fact of the matter is ONCE AGAIN the Bills are one of the teams with a mind boggling number of players injured or on injured reserve. If you want to place blame and make it stick I'm looking in the direction of the strength and conditioning coach. Something has to be going on with how our guys train and their preparation in OTAs and training camp.
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 I was just making a comparison about the o-line seeing as how it is a Jason Peters thread. I'm tired of it and share your frustrations but COME ON MAN, you HAVE to admit that that having almost 50% of your starting lineup and even more supposedly valuable depth is going to have a HUGE HUGE HUGE impact on your on field performance. I know you want to blame someone and make it stick but the sad fact of the matter is ONCE AGAIN the Bills are one of the teams with a mind boggling number of players injured or on injured reserve. If you want to place blame and make it stick I'm looking in the direction of the strength and conditioning coach. Something has to be going on with how our guys train and their preparation in OTAs and training camp. The problem with your take is that these problems were predictable, foreseeable, and avoidable in most cases. I'm actually not mad at all. I predicted this, though like other fans hoped otherwise. This is a bad team and they make far, far too many errors both on the field, coaching, and in the off-season. When one pulls their head out of the hole in the ground, it's just obvious. Take the injury excuse. Butler has never been healthy in his career. Why assume its all going to be A-OK this time even when he is nursing his way through camp? Does that make any sense? Bell was banged up most of the pre-season as well. It was totally obvious they needed depth at OT. A blind man could see it. They were disappointed in Walker, so they cut him outright. WTH? Now, some want to come back and excuse the horrible OT play and depth with a lame "if there were no injuries"? Are you !@#$ing kidding me? As far as blame, you're wrong. I'm not campaigning to blame any particular person. The Bills have a number of bad players on this team. The Bills have bad coaching and poor design. The Bills have poor scouting. The Bills make poor evaluations of players both internally and externally. The Bills front office is a mess and its committee of decision makers is failing badly. Finally, the owner clearly surrendered the season this past off-season, choosing to stay the course after a flame out nosedive. He refused to take ownership of the situation, make any changes, or hold the people that work for him accountable for the results. I think that covers the entire team from bottom to top. So, yes, I blame the organization for putting a poor product on the field. I'd much rather they played competent and competitive football. You don't play the game to merely exist. You should be trying to win. [Edit] PS: The above paragraph does not say that every move made has been an error. There have been a few good decisions, but they pale in comparison to all the decisions that have gone awry.
BillsVet Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 Ummm....uhhhhh....yep....can't recall. Hey we blaze our own trail! The other 31 teams in the NFL will soon follow step in an attempt to duplicate our success! I'm sorry, but I don't have my sarcasm detector on tonight and trust you're joking. The answer is, teams that are trying to win do not trade outstanding LT's. People can malign Peters and say he was lazy, money-hungry, et al, but every time someone leaves Buffalo, there's something from the Bills PR folks to explain why that player had to go. Ask Langston Walker. OT depth, as Sisyphean points out, was razor thin in camp. And the crap being fed to Bills fans about Walker and now Bell is being exposed as propaganda. If I want kool-aid, I'll call this guy. The Philadelphia Eagles are a team built with good OL play, with HC Andy Reid making the call to trade for Peters. Am I supposed to believe a team with success nearly every season this decade are foolish and the misunderstood and naive Bills know something we don't? Doubtful.
Thurman#1 Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 The Bills screwed the pooch by not being more proactive in resigning Peters. Peters sees the Bills sign free agent offensive linemen for mega bucks. Sees Scholbel, Kelsey and others resigned to mega contracts. Wether in fans minds, Peters deserved to go to the Pro-Bowl or not; he was. Peters agent was probably inflating Peter's ego beyond reality. While, by all accounts it seems that Brandon, a very raw GM at best, underestimated (by a lot I might add) Peter's true value. Besides QB, the most important position on offense is LT. If your lucky enough to get a good one, you pay him and plug him in there for the next 10 years. Our inexperienced quasi GM for all the excuses he uttered at the Bills Booster meeting blew it. Maybe, just maybe a seasoned GM would have been proactive at an earlier date; but then again if there had been a top notch GM in place instead of Levy, we most likely don't bring in under preforming, orverpaid lineman. Peters had a new contract (very inexpensive for a LT) in place but after making the Pro-Bowl, seeing two new linemen in Dockery and Walker receive 6 and 7 million before playing one down; Peters had to be pi$$ed. Unfortunatley, talent evaluation either of FA of other teams or value of their own players has taken a nosedive ever since John Butler left, taking with him half the front office involved with player evaluation, let alone most of the scouts. You said it all. Nice post.
Thurman#1 Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 Interesting site, Thurman. I found the data on defense interesting. The Colts, the Tampa-2 blueprint that the Bills seem to (badly) be trying to follow, have the #1 and #2 4-3 DEs at 15.1 and 13.3. The Bills best DE is Denney and he's ranked #75 at -1.8. Our #1 pick is is ranked #97 at -6.2. (Kelsay and Schobel are #80 and #82.) Kawika Mitchell is ranked last among 4-3 OLBs at a -8.8. Buggs is one of the worst MLBs going. Mitchell is hardly any better. Stroud is ranked #93 at -2.1. According to this, the Bills front 7 is a pile of garbage. Wow. I hadn't looked at that at all. It's really interesting to compare us to the Colts, because as you say, we are trying to follow their blueprint and not doing very well at it. Interesting stuff.
Thurman#1 Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 Ummm....uhhhhh....yep....can't recall. Hey we blaze our own trail! The other 31 teams in the NFL will soon follow step in an attempt to duplicate our success! Bwah ha ha ha ha ha. You have me cracking up in an empty room here. Hilarious!
Thurman#1 Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 I was just making a comparison about the o-line seeing as how it is a Jason Peters thread. I'm tired of it and share your frustrations but COME ON MAN, you HAVE to admit that that having almost 50% of your starting lineup and even more supposedly valuable depth is going to have a HUGE HUGE HUGE impact on your on field performance. I know you want to blame someone and make it stick but the sad fact of the matter is ONCE AGAIN the Bills are one of the teams with a mind boggling number of players injured or on injured reserve. If you want to place blame and make it stick I'm looking in the direction of the strength and conditioning coach. Something has to be going on with how our guys train and their preparation in OTAs and training camp. Have to agree about the strength and conditioning coach. Two years ago, I thought there was some smoke, but wasn't convinced about the fire. At this point, we can safely say that a blaze is causing that huge column of smoke dominating the sky.
ExiledInIllinois Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 Have to agree about the strength and conditioning coach. Two years ago, I thought there was some smoke, but wasn't convinced about the fire. At this point, we can safely say that a blaze is causing that huge column of smoke dominating the sky. Since Rusty Jones left and was replaced with John Allaire things have gone downhill... Strange that Allaire was under Jones, even went to the same college... From what it appears hasn't picked up any of Jones' abilities...
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 Since Rusty Jones left and was replaced with John Allaire things have gone downhill... Strange that Allaire was under Jones, even went to the same college... From what it appears hasn't picked up any of Jones' abilities... I think part of it is playing the Tampa-2 defense and the trend of putting smaller players on the field and closer to the line of scrimmage. This is compounded by having razor thin depth. So when the first string smallish athlete goes down, he is replaced by a guy that lacks size, athleticism, and experience. The backup players have largely shown to be an injury waiting to happen since they're smaller, less athletic, are going to make mistakes, and get caught in bad positions. (Jabari Greer was a notable exception; his drafted replacement being on IR, though.)
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