Hey all you Jason Peters haters

[Thurman#1]

So you are saying if Peters went to a CRAPPY team he would have had a greater impact? Well his impact on the Bills last year was 7-9.

 

 

Yeah, that 7-9 was all on Peters. Gotcha. I really admire your thoughtful arguments here.

[The Senator]

That 3 more for Thurman...hey Thurm - are you Jason's mother or somethin'?

[Thurman#1]

yeah Oher would have been horrible at LT for the Bills...he only started at LT this week going up against the NFLs co sack leader and played really well

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_...?urn=nfl,195375

 

the guy has now proved his is versatile enough to play both left and right tackle but you probably still cant admit he is a LT that would have been a big help to the Bills o-line and made trading Peters a non issue

 

 

 

I see, one game proves you can do something. Gotcha. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!! If that were true, then we have one terrific LT in Bell, because he played quite well for his first game or two till teams figured him out.

 

That's what generally happens. Teams play you vanilla and try things on you till they figure out what your weak points are. And at that point, you better be up to the task of improving and improving fast.

 

So far, Oher has proved that in a pinch, you can use him at LT, something that most teams hope to get from their RT (Langston Walker, for example. He looked decent for a few games last year). How many double teams did they use on Odom? How many chip blocks? Screen passes? How often did they use three-step drops? I don't know the answer to these questions. Do you? You can protect an LT who's over-matched, though it hurts your productivity elsewhere. Did they do this?

 

Think that when Gaither comes back, the Ravens will breathe a sigh of relief and return Oher to RT? I do.

 

None of this is to absolutely deny that Oher can become a good LT. Maybe he can. But choosing him as an RT was a very low-risk move, while choosing him as an LT carried a very high risk. That's why we didn't draft him. It's also why all the other teams between #8 - where the last of the big 3 LTs went - and #23 stayed away from him.

 

He fell all that way because of what he looked like. Which was a right tackle.

[Thurman#1]

What is their cap situation for 2010 (he asked, knowingly)?

 

And Seymour always gave 100% on the field and always showed-up to off-season activities.

 

 

 

Their cap status is that they couldn't afford both Seymour and Wilfork. It was blindingly obvious and while Pats* fans didn't expect the trade to happen the way it did, they also didn't expect to keep them both.

 

So what you're trying to tell me is that even when you always give 100% on the field and always show up to off-season activities, teams don't necessarily feel any necessity to pay you what you're worth, right? That they'll trade you in a heartbeat to one of the worst teams in the league, right, without a thought. Yup, you're right on. Which is why guys, especially guys who are being financially reamed, sometimes hold out.

 

And by the way, Seymour was being paid very well. Unlike Peters, Seymour wasn't recieving the lowest salary of all 32 starters at his position. Peters had a lot more to be angry about than Seymour. And look what showing up got Seymour.

[Flbillsfan#1]

No, you look it up.

 

Go get any book on negotiating. They tell you to ask for more than you expect to get. Once that has penetrated, go look at how the negotiations actually went.

 

First, Peters asked to be paid as the best LT in the NFL. Then when the Bills raised their offer, Peters lowered his offer, to well below the Long's salary.

 

At least if you use the "look it up" thing, have a clue what actually happened. He wanted market value.

No you look it up. The FIRST thing Peters did was HOLD OUT then PLAY LIKE CRAP for a season. As I said before NOBODY KNOWS what went on behind closed doors. You have NO IDEA what Peters asked for or was willing to accept.

[Thurman#1]

No you look it up. The FIRST thing Peters did was HOLD OUT then PLAY LIKE CRAP for a season. As I said before NOBODY KNOWS what went on behind closed doors. You have NO IDEA what Peters asked for or was willing to accept.

 

 

 

No, YOU look it up.

 

Peters joined the Bills in 2004, signed a new contract before the 2006 season and held out in 2008. IF THAT IS WHAT YOU CALL "The FIRST thing Peters did" then you have one piss-poor understanding of the English language.

 

And if I didn't have any idea what Peters asked for or was willing to accept, then I would be the only one in the world, except you, of course. Everyone knows this. The fact that you don't even know that Peters agent made his offers public shows clearly you aren't worth talking with. Brandon's offers were not public. Peters on the other hand announced his offers from the rooftops, and if you don't know them, it's just because you are too lazy to do research.

[Thurman#1]

Intelligent and calm post. I have also had this discussion with people. You will never be a play off team if you are continually filling holes because you are unwilling to pay your top talent fair market value for their talents. Sometimes you have to let some go. Other times you have to accept what the market value is and pay it. We spend SO much time spinning our wheels replacing great players that we were unwilling to play. We are never able to improve on our talent level as we are always trying to replace the guy we wouldn't fairly compensate. I'm not saying you have to pay EVERY star performer at every position but you have to pay some. LT is the second most important position on o-line.

 

The Patriots are a good example of this. They had a tough decision to make between 2 players in Wilfork and Seymour. They kept and will/did pay Wilfork fair market value and they got something for Seymour while they could. The Bills on the other hand when faced with similar decisions generally let those types of guys play out their contracts and then let them leave in free agency getting nothing. Our strategy seems to be to NOT pay and let go the REALLY good players but sign the slightly above average to solid role players.

 

Maybe they think this is where the "value" is. My question is "how's that working out for us?".

 

 

 

Ouch. Painfully on target.

[Thurman#1]

Read and discuss:

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writ...11/week5/5.html

 

"2. I think if you're a Chiefs' fan, you might want to skip this section. Kansas City refused to give Jared Allen a top-tier defensive end contract 18 months ago, instead shipping him to Minnesota for what appeared to be fair compensation three days before the 2008 draft. Here's how the deal looks today:

 

What the Chiefs got:

 

1st round (15th overall) Branden Albert, OT -- Starting LT has a chance to be good. In-and-out work ethic.

 

3rd round (73) Jamaal Charles, RB -- Change-of-pace back averaging five carries a game in 21 pro games.

 

3rd round (82) DaJuan Morgan, S -- Sub safety who still has to prove self to new coaching staff.

 

6th round (182) Kevin Robinson, WR -- Cut by Chiefs in '08.

 

What the Vikings got:

 

Jared Allen, DE -- The league's best all-around defensive end has 21 sacks and three safeties in 22 Viking games.

 

6th round (187) John Sullivan, C -- First-year starting center on one of NFL's best lines.

 

It's not certain, but it's possible that history will show that the Vikings got a more productive player at 187 (Sullivan) than the Chiefs got at 15 (Albert). Ouch."

 

 

 

Wow. I hadn't really kept track of that at all. Eye-opening stuff.

[Thurman#1]

Anyone remember when Bruce Smith signed an offer sheet with the Broncos as a RFA?

 

Man, that must have been terrible for building team unity. Here's a guy who gave the big F-U to the team over money. Obviously, Polian should have just let the guy walk, because by signing with another team, Smith should that he didn't want to be part of the Bills any longer.

 

Right?

 

Jim Kelly signed with the USFL instead of the Bills, showing that he cared more about money than playing in the NFL, and made it clear that he wanted nothing to do with Buffalo. Buffalo should have immediately traded his rights when Kelly signed with the USFL to a warm weather city, which is exactly what Kelly suggested they should do at that time, right?

 

Basically following this advice about buying into drama of a contract negotiation, and take the statements made during a negotiation, would make for a lousy GM.

 

That's why good GMs like Polian (who by the way was very vocal during negotiations) focused on getting the talent on the field, while lousy GMs like Brandon, showed that he has no skill to negotiate in the NFL.

 

Bottom line, for 10 years Buffalo QBs have been chased and sacked all over the field. Building a strong offensive line with a corner-stone LT is a must to remedy this situation.

 

Brandon f#cked this up because he has no ability to understand that talent on the field trumps contract negotiation banter in all circumstances.

 

 

 

Thank you. Excellent post. I'd forgotten that about Bruce. Great stuff.

 

 

 

That is a false analogy as there was no open free agency at the time, and the player would never have any opportunity to play for another team.

 

Peters could have held out, showed up for the last 8 weeks of the next two seasons and be an unrestricted free agent. The Bills had no leverage.

 

I wish we still had Peters, but based on what he has said since, he had no intention of signing here after he held out in 2008.

 

 

 

Show me, with a ***LINK***, anywhere where he said he had no intention of signing here after 2008. You say that you are basing it on what he has said since, but the actual fact is that he has addressed this publicly exactly once, when he said that the same day he was traded he told the Bills he would play out his contract and then sign with another team. The same day that he was traded.

 

Why would he wait that long to say it? There are only two answers that fit intelligently.

 

1) This statement was yet another in a series of negotiating positions. Since this is a very standard negotiating ploy, there is a good chance that this is what was actually happening. Or ...

 

2) He had finally come to believe that the Bills simply weren't going to pay him market value, and BECAUSE OF THAT, he was finished with negotiations.

 

 

 

And I don't quite what to say about such a wrong-headed statement as you made in your first paragraph. The whole point that the guy was making was that Smith had signed a contract with another team. This contract forced the Bills to match it or lose Smith. For you to say that Smith "would never have any opportunity to play for another team" shows that you simply are not aware of what happened or what it meant. Smith was an RFA, a "Restricted Free Agent," and he was a half a step from being gone, and he did it purely because of money concerns.

 

And how can you say that Kelly didn't have an opportunity to play for another team. Kelly DID play for another team, turning down the Bills offer because he didn't want to become a Bill and because of money concerns.

 

But that's OK for those two guys and not for Peters because ... um ... because ... well, there actually is no reason except perhaps that you simply don't like Peters and you do like Kelly and Bruce. (With which I sympathize, by the way. But I don't find the fact that Peters is less likeable than those guys to be a good argument that the same willingness to hold Buffalo's chestnuts to the fire, and the same willingness to leave for financial reasons should be accepted from Bruce and Kelly, but vilified with Peters.)

[Thurman#1]

I don't understand what you are trying to say. He did NOT sign with the Bills, although it has been reported the Bills offered him the same money the Eagles paid him.

 

 

It certainly has NOT been reported (by anyone but fan posters throwing out wild guesses, that is) that the Bills made the same money the Eagles paid him. Simply not true.

 

A number of people have made this claim, and each time I have asked for a link, and each time nobody has produced anything. But maybe you are different.

 

LINK????????????

[Thurman#1]

Yes he was happy as a well paid RT clam Everyone conveniently forgets he signed his last contract with us as a RT and was then promptly moved to LT. But people want to justify their hate. Hey, it's pop warner football not a business that the NFL is. Players should play for free just for the fun of it! It screws with some people's heads but this is a business. How many times do people have to hear it from players, coaches, GMs, owners and aware fans before they understand it.

 

If someone else is willing to pay you for your skills you take that money. If your current employer, also known as a team, is not willing to pay you what another employer is, also known as another team, you leave for the better job. It's the American way baby. It's called capitalism. Love it or leave it.

 

Imagine if you and I had to sign contracts to work with our employer? A company brings us along and rewards our performance with an assistant manager job and pay grade and then shortly there after fires our manager and give us all of their responsibilities. Instead of giving us the corresponding pay raise, they ask us to handle all of a managers responsibilities for a few years but do it at an assistant managers pay. You would tell your employer where they could go and what they could "do" to themselves and find an employer that appreciated you for your worth and market value skills.

 

Most of us with any brain and ambition would do the same thing in their PROFESSION of choice!!!! Don't vilify the guy because his chosen profession is a professional sport!!

 

 

 

Exactly. That metaphor is dead on.

[Mr. WEO]

Exactly. That metaphor is dead on.

The analogy is poorly drawn. People are given extra duties when others leave or are fired all the time. To suggest that typical employees are going to walk out on a job (especially one that was paying as well as Peters's) in such a situation suggests a disconnect from reality.

 

There are few lines of work (paying that much) where such an employee could shop their services to the highest bidder--especially when there is legitmate debate over whether this employee is even very good at what he does and has a questionable reputation and work ethic.

 

Good luck with that job hunt!

 

Just silly.

[Doc]

Their cap status is that they couldn't afford both Seymour and Wilfork. It was blindingly obvious and while Pats* fans didn't expect the trade to happen the way it did, they also didn't expect to keep them both.

 

So what you're trying to tell me is that even when you always give 100% on the field and always show up to off-season activities, teams don't necessarily feel any necessity to pay you what you're worth, right? That they'll trade you in a heartbeat to one of the worst teams in the league, right, without a thought. Yup, you're right on. Which is why guys, especially guys who are being financially reamed, sometimes hold out.

 

And by the way, Seymour was being paid very well. Unlike Peters, Seymour wasn't recieving the lowest salary of all 32 starters at his position. Peters had a lot more to be angry about than Seymour. And look what showing up got Seymour.

Um, no. The Patriots have all the cap room in the world because in 2010, currently, there is no salary cap. They made a decision that Seymour wanted too much money and would be a problem (even though he's never pulled anything close to what Peters did), so they traded him. And it definitely hurt them in the short-term.

[thebandit27]

That would really hurt The Senator's agenda, wouldn't it?

 

By all appearances, The Senaturd does have a Peters-related issue with posting BS stats and then acting belligerent when facts are brought into the discussion.

 

But as to his agenda, I can't really comment. I, however, most certainly have one: to make sure--when I read a thread--that people don't spout complete fallacies and hope they're accepted as facts.

 

I guess it's a character flaw...

[Flbillsfan#1]

No, you look it up.

 

Go get any book on negotiating. They tell you to ask for more than you expect to get. Once that has penetrated, go look at how the negotiations actually went.

 

First, Peters asked to be paid as the best LT in the NFL. Then when the Bills raised their offer, Peters lowered his offer, to well below Long's salary.

 

At least if you use the "look it up" thing, have a clue what actually happened. He wanted market value.

OK you keep asking for links, LETS SEE your link to this.

[Flbillsfan#1]

No, YOU look it up.

 

Peters joined the Bills in 2004, signed a new contract before the 2006 season and held out in 2008. IF THAT IS WHAT YOU CALL "The FIRST thing Peters did" then you have one piss-poor understanding of the English language.

 

And if I didn't have any idea what Peters asked for or was willing to accept, then I would be the only one in the world, except you, of course. Everyone knows this. The fact that you don't even know that Peters agent made his offers public shows clearly you aren't worth talking with. Brandon's offers were not public. Peters on the other hand announced his offers from the rooftops, and if you don't know them, it's just because you are too lazy to do research.

LINK, show us the link that shows what Peters was willing to accept prior to signing with the Eagles.

[K-9]

This has to be the greatest pissing contest in the history of TSW. Geysers that make the Flutie/Johnson debates look like a pinhole leak in a water balloon. Some people around here should join the Fire Dept.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Flbillsfan#1]

OK you keep asking for links, LETS SEE your link to this.

Still WAITING for the LINK Thurman.

[Flbillsfan#1]

LINK, show us the link that shows what Peters was willing to accept prior to signing with the Eagles.

STILL WAITING for this LINK also Thurman. Let's go, I'm sure a number of Bills fans would be interested in reading them.

[Flbillsfan#1]

This has to be the greatest pissing contest in the history of TSW. Geysers that make the Flutie/Johnson debates look like a pinhole leak in a water balloon. Some people around here should join the Fire Dept.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I have been a Volunteer Fireman myself for years.