Gary M Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I don't believe an organization can "ruin" or destroy a QB's career. The QB's in this league who are very good have a certain quality. It's known as the "IT" factor because it's a combination of smarts, arm, leadership, confidence, pocket presence, accuracy, etc... If you put those QB's listed on the Bills (i.w.Ryan,Flacco,Roethlisberger,Brady,Rodgers,Rivers,Cutler)they would certainly be throwing up some 300 yd games even in a losing effort. The Bills can't even pass for 300 when they are behind which is automatic for most teams. Keep an I eye on Matt Cassel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 please fix the title of this thread - you're implying that there was a career to be ruined in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I think there's confusion here regarding "potential" vs. "does one thing very well, everything else not-so-much." One could put forth the argument that many of the quarterbacks to come through post-Kelly have suffered from this imbalance of skill sets. How does that translate on the field? Well, it's the NFL, it only takes opposing coordinators a game or two to figure out tendencies and force a QB to do something he or she doesn't do naturally. If it's JP, you force him to beat you short. If it's Trent, you force him to beat you long. If they prove incapable of playing against their own grain, then they're a lousy quarterback (in the NFL). And that's what we've had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 But he has Poise. Face it. Trent has done what a lot of young QBs have done... managed the game well. Not looking for huge plays, etc. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have seen him take the next step, however due his own faults and the MANY around him (bad HC, bad OC, very young unexperience OL, etc.) he has not. Can he get better with a new HC and a experienced OC? With a solid OL? I still think so. Unfortunately, those changes need to happen yesterday and we all know that Ralph doesn't like to do anything during the season. Hopefully, I am wrong but I think he may turn out to be another JP. A kid with potential, that gets ruined by those making the decisions that affect the pieces around him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I don't believe an organization can "ruin" or destroy a QB's career. The QB's in this league who are very good have a certain quality. It's known as the "IT" factor because it's a combination of smarts, arm, leadership, confidence, pocket presence, accuracy, etc... If you put those QB's listed on the Bills (i.w.Ryan,Flacco,Roethlisberger,Brady,Rodgers,Rivers,Cutler)they would certainly be throwing up some 300 yd games even in a losing effort. The Bills can't even pass for 300 when they are behind which is automatic for most teams. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Face it. Trent has done what a lot of young QBs have done... managed the game well. Not looking for huge plays, etc. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have seen him take the next step, however due his own faults and the MANY around him (bad HC, bad OC, very young unexperience OL, etc.) he has not. Can he get better with a new HC and a experienced OC? With a solid OL? I still think so. Unfortunately, those changes need to happen yesterday and we all know that Ralph doesn't like to do anything during the season. Hopefully, I am wrong but I think he may turn out to be another JP. A kid with potential, that gets ruined by those making the decisions that affect the pieces around him. Or Trent grows up a bit and excels in spite of these things. Did you not see the deplorable OLine playing in front of Big Ben last year? Ben, unlike Trent, MAKES PLAYS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDaDdy Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Except for: Ryan Flacco Roethlisberger Brady Rodgers Rivers Cutler Well, so much for that theory. In the era of the successful rookie QB, for the Bills to not be able to pick one for over 10 years is just inexcusable. Is it any surprise that those guys all have bigger arms than Trent? Did you see the air that Trent got under that one rainbow he threw to Lee Evans??? I THOUGH LEE WAS GOING TO FIND A LEPRECHAUN AND A POT OF GOLD AT THE END OF IT!!!!! The few balls he tired to throw into the middle of the field had NO velocity on them or they were high or off the mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Or Trent grows up a bit and excels in spite of these things. Did you not see the deplorable OLine playing in front of Big Ben last year? Ben, unlike Trent, MAKES PLAYS. The Steelers OL has been and is better than the Bills. There is no denying that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricojes Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 There haven't been any, but that's the point. The Bills have had about a dozen QBs in that period, some more talented than the others, but they all look about the same on the field and suffered from the problems you mentioned. Meanwhile, what hasn't really changed? The sh** quality of coaching that the QBs and the rest of the offense have received over the same time period. Until their philosophy of hiring the cheapest coaches they can find changes, the lousy play of the QBs and offense in general won't change, either. I'm just playing the devil's advocate here, but what if it's the other way around? What if the QB position really has been the main problem here? Can an average coach win with a great team? Of course he can. It all starts with the QB, he's the focal point of any offense. Until the Bills have a legitimate QB, all coach's will fail. Unless they build a monster defense, which they aren't even close to at this time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Is it any surprise that those guys all have bigger arms than Trent? Did you see the air that Trent got under that one rainbow he threw to Lee Evans??? I THOUGH LEE WAS GOING TO FIND A LEPRECHAUN AND A POT OF GOLD AT THE END OF IT!!!!! The few balls he tired to throw into the middle of the field had NO velocity on them or they were high or off the mark. All those quarterbacks were taken in the first round too. Just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I'm just playing devils advocate here, but what if it's the other way around? What if the QB position really has been the main problem here? Can an average coach win with a great team? Of course he can. It all starts with the QB, he's the focal point of any offense. Until the Bills have a legitimate QB, all coach's will fail. Unless they build a monster defense, which they aren't even close to at this time... True. But most young QBs do what they are told, play how they are coached. Whether it be the OC or the HC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDaDdy Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Do you have any idea how good the offensive lines were for each of these respective players during their rookie years? Yes go take a look at the number of sacks that some of those lines gave up. You have some good lines and some poor lines in there. Guess we didn't need any of those high priced fat bastards that we got rid of. Russ Brandon just learned a lesson in the importance of DEPTH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthICE Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Please don't add me to the Trent apologists camp. I've always liked him, yes, but I've also been a realist - I thought he had potential, and that he'd improve into a very good quarterback. I based this on his decision-making and accuracy in his first two years, and, specifically, plays he made in certain games (the Washington, Jacksonville, and Oakland games come to mind) - I hadn't seen QB play like that in Buffalo since Kelly. But, sadly, as with young all QBs, there is a bit of a nature-versus-nurture issue that takes hold. IMO except for maybe the very rarest talents, a young QB cannot be successful, and will not develop properly, if certain basic conditions are not met. Thus, as we've seen time and time again in the NFL (David Carr, Tim Couch, Heath Shuler, there are a TON of other examples), if you subject a young QB to a situation where they have very little protection, their offensive coaches are inept and/or in a constant state of flux, and their organizations are just generally unstable, it KILLS their careers. They're unable to recover. They are shellshocked, lack confidence, and end up leaving the NFL much earlier than they should have. By contrast, if you take the most average QB and put them in a position where success is almost inevitable (see: Matt Cassell), they still have a good chance of blossoming and playing a long career. Folks, IMO, and as had been my worry for a few years now, the Bills organization has destroyed Trent's career. If you've watched the last two games, you've seen it:no confidence, no time to throw, and when he does have time, his mental clock is broken and he just dumps it off. His mechanics are suffering (lots of high throws, because he's backpedaling). His offensive line is the least talented in the League, and on any given pass play, disaster could strike. His offensive coordinator has no clue how to call route combinations to succeed against any given defense, so Trent is being asked to do it all on his own. He's getting picked because he's making decisions he never would've made a year ago. His body language is awful. When he gets back to the sidelines after a tough play, HE HAS NO ONE TO TALK TO ABOUT IT, because the Bills' skeleton offensive coaching staff is upstairs in the booth. It's a really sad state of affairs, and there's a good chance that he'll never recover from it. He may become a serviceable backup in the League, to be sure, or perhaps even he'll be lucky enough to become the reclamation project of a great offensive coach - but it won't happen in this City, for reasons we're all to aware of. I'm not saying Trent has no share in the blame. Surely he could thicken his skin, strengthen his resolve, dig deeper, study on his own, develop a back-against-the-wall gunslinger mentality and try to throw his way out of this mess. Doubtful it would do much good, but I'd commend him for it. We haven't seen that from him though, and it's rare. I'll just add this final point for people to think about: the question of whether TE can get it done should NOT be looked at as an "objective" assessment, i.e., he either has "it" or he doesn't, and some of you told us so from the get-go, some of you were blinded by your love for him, etc. It's much more nuanced than that. It's fluid. He had the potential, people, we've all seen evidence of that. But there are so many other factors, organizational factors, that determine the final product. It's like a gifted kid from a poor neighborhood - he has it in him to do great things, but the odds are too stacked against him. Most of the time, they're too great to overcome. Congrats Ralph, you've killed a smart, talented young QB's career. Bull crap. Trent wouldnt start for any other team period. He is nothing but a career backup at best. No one 'ruined' him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 The Steelers OL has been and is better than the Bills. There is no denying that. I think there is some denying it, actually. The Steelers line last year was downright bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zow2 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 The Steelers OL has been and is better than the Bills. There is no denying that. The Steelers O-line was not good and even horrendous at times last season (ask any Steelers fan)....and they still WON the Super Bowl?!?!?!?! Look, Trent is a QB that is suitable as a lower level 2nd string. He can step in for a game or two and try to manage the game....do his check down thing, try to run the ball, etc... He does not look like a legitimate starting NFL caliber QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDaDdy Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Every QB you listed started with good offensive lines. You give more credibility to his point. Without a competent line a young QB can not be successful. Some of those lines were not good. As I said in response to another post. Take a look at the sacks given up by some of those lines for some of those guys. Now also consider that because Ben Rothlesberger has that IT factor and can be a starting QB in this league he saves his team on average 2 in the grasp sacks a game due to his size, mobility and determination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I think there is some denying it, actually. The Steelers line last year was downright bad. The Bills was and has been absolutely horrible. I like Wood and Levitre though, I think they will turn out to be great players for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDaDdy Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Would you mind listing that stellar cast of QB's. Edwards might be good on a very very good team, as I said in my post, he could be a very good system QB. But he is not an elite QB, who can win when conditions aren't optimal. Sure if a perfect storm of circumstances were to occur. I guess I can't disagree with you. HELL Trent Dilfer even won a super bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Granted he played poorly yesterday. I still feel bad for him though. Man he was getting crushed on pretty much every play. Opposing teams... how to beat the Bills. Blitz. When that doesn't work.. they will kill themselves with penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 The Bills was and has been absolutely horrible. I like Wood and Levitre though, I think they will turn out to be great players for us. You can make that argument, fine. But that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Not to mention, before Bell and Chambers went down, this line wasn't all that bad, and it's been a LONG time since any Bills line looked as bad as they did yesterday. I digress. So, we've now established that the Steelers won a Super Bowl completely in spite of their poor OLine and that it had A LOT (if not everything) to do with their quarterback. I'd say that punches some pretty sizable holes into the "we have a bad OLine so we must not expect our QB to be good" formula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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