It's Official

[PDaDdy]

I think there's confusion here regarding "potential" vs. "does one thing very well, everything else not-so-much." One could put forth the argument that many of the quarterbacks to come through post-Kelly have suffered from this imbalance of skill sets.

 

How does that translate on the field? Well, it's the NFL, it only takes opposing coordinators a game or two to figure out tendencies and force a QB to do something he or she doesn't do naturally. If it's JP, you force him to beat you short. If it's Trent, you force him to beat you long. If they prove incapable of playing against their own grain, then they're a lousy quarterback (in the NFL). And that's what we've had.

 

Outstanding and often over looked point!!!! This has been somewhat the basis of my arm strength argument against Trent. It is debatable as to whether Trent doesn't go deep often due to lack of arm strength or lack of balls but for sure D coordinators will take away what you like to do most of the time. Trent is amazing a checking down and throwing short passes. D coordinators are daring him to go mid long to long and so far he hasn't been effective taking advantage of it.

[Brandon]

I'm just playing devils advocate here, but what if it's the other way around? What if the QB position really has been the main problem here? Can an average coach win with a great team? Of course he can. It all starts with the QB, he's the focal point of any offense. Until the Bills have a legitimate QB, all coach's will fail. Unless they build a monster defense, which they aren't even close to at this time...

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing Edwards or poor QB play in the past. I'm just saying that its hard to expect any QB to really play well when the front office has made its decisions on offensive coaching to a price point. In that sense, they've exactly gotten what they paid for. Even if they bring in a new QB, and they probably should, the end result likely won't change until they make a real effort to upgrade the coaching half of the equation.

[PDaDdy]

The Steelers OL has been and is better than the Bills. There is no denying that.

 

 

Uh.....yes...I'm denying it. Do you ever watch any Steelers games. Not trying to be a jerk but if it weren't for Ben's size and athleticism that line would have even MORE than the considerable number of sacks it already has to it's credit.

[The Big Cat]

Granted he played poorly yesterday. I still feel bad for him though. Man he was getting crushed on pretty much every play.

 

Opposing teams... how to beat the Bills. Blitz. When that doesn't work.. they will kill themselves with penalties.

 

Yep, and beating a blitz isn't a one dimensional process, it's not as simple as marching a good OLine onto the field. Turns out it's more of the responsibility of the quarterback to either audible and/or make the throws that torch the blitz.

 

Somehow teams have managed to blitz, cover short, long, and medium all in the same play. And what's remarkable, the only team in all of football this seems to work against is the Buffalo Bills. I wish we watched games from the coach's cam, because until I actually saw it happen yesterday, I assumed this sort of defensive miracle was virtually impossible.

[ricojes]

Sure if a perfect storm of circumstances were to occur. I guess I can't disagree with you. HELL Trent Dilfer even won a super bowl.

That's exactly what I am saying! Dilfer played on team with one of the best defenses of all time and won a SB by probably checking down more than TE's. But unfortunately the Bills are nowhere near having a dominant D, so I have no faith the TE can be successful on this team...

[Heels20X6]

You can make that argument, fine. But that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Not to mention, before Bell and Chambers went down, this line wasn't all that bad, and it's been a LONG time since any Bills line looked as bad as they did yesterday.

 

I digress. So, we've now established that the Steelers won a Super Bowl completely in spite of their poor OLine and that it had A LOT (if not everything) to do with their quarterback.

 

I'd say that punches some pretty sizable holes into the "we have a bad OLine so we must not expect our QB to be good" formula.

 

Remember that they didn't have a mental midget as a HC too. Tomlin instilled passion into his team. He instilled accountability. His players play for him but they give 100% or they get it from him. Dicky J just hopes his guys "try their best" and its milk and cookies after the game win or lose.

 

Tomlin also surrounds himself with one of the best coaching staffs in the game, using EXPERIENCED coordinators like Lebeau instead of "promoting from within" like our mess of an organization.

 

 

The Steelers are what the Bills should be.

[PDaDdy]

The Bills was and has been absolutely horrible. I like Wood and Levitre though, I think they will turn out to be great players for us.

 

HOORAY!!! There is hope for 2011!!!!

[The Big Cat]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing Edwards or poor QB play in the past. I'm just saying that its hard to expect any QB to really play well when the front office has made its decisions on offensive coaching to a price point. In that sense, they've exactly gotten what they paid for. Even if they bring in a new QB, and they probably should, the end result likely won't change until they make a real effort to upgrade the coaching half of the equation.

 

How about the Front Office's decision to sign the second greatest receiver in the history of the NFL?

[The Big Cat]

Remember that they didn't have a mental midget as a HC too. Tomlin instilled passion into his team. He instilled accountability. His players play for him but they give 100% or they get it from him. Dicky J just hopes his guys "try their best" and its milk and cookies after the game win or lose.

 

Tomlin also surrounds himself with one of the best coaching staffs in the game, using EXPERIENCED coordinators like Lebeau instead of "promoting from within" like our mess of an organization.

 

 

The Steelers are what the Bills should be.

 

And all of this translates to Ben Roethlisberger being impossible to sack, how?

[pBills]

You can make that argument, fine. But that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Not to mention, before Bell and Chambers went down, this line wasn't all that bad, and it's been a LONG time since any Bills line looked as bad as they did yesterday.

 

I digress. So, we've now established that the Steelers won a Super Bowl completely in spite of their poor OLine and that it had A LOT (if not everything) to do with their quarterback.

 

I'd say that punches some pretty sizable holes into the "we have a bad OLine so we must not expect our QB to be good" formula.

 

 

The Steelers winning last year had A LOT to do with their defense. Hell Roethlisbergers stats in that game were not good.

 

B. Roethlisberger: 21/30 1 TD, 1 INT. And his lone TD came very late in the game.

[PDaDdy]

That's exactly what I am saying! Dilfer played on team with one of the best defenses of all time and won a SB by probably checking down more than TE's. But unfortunately the Bills are nowhere near having a dominant D, so I have no faith the TE can be successful on this team...

 

 

My point is Dilfer SUCKED and they won a super bowl in spite of him. Just because he was on the team that won the super bowl doesn't mean he was good. He lost his job the year following immediately after winning by the way

[ricojes]

My point is Dilfer SUCKED and they won a super bowl in spite of him. Just because he was on the team that won the super bowl doesn't mean he was good. He lost his job the year following immediately after winning by the way

Exactly, anyone can win with a great Defense. thanks for confirming my point again. The Bills have an average D at best and the O needs to score at least a couple TD's a game to win consistently, I don't have faith that TE is the guy who can do it on a consistent basis...

[PDaDdy]

Exactly, anyone can win with a great Defense. thanks for confirming my point again. The Bills have an average D at best and the O needs to score at least a couple TD's a game to win consistently, I don't have faith that TE is the guy who can do it on a consistent basis...

 

Maybe I misunderstood you. I was commenting on this point you were making:

 

Would you mind listing that stellar cast of QB's. Edwards might be good on a very very good team, as I said in my post, he could be a very good system QB. But he is not an elite QB, who can win when conditions aren't optimal.

 

Unless I'm mistaken PART of your point was that Edwards might be good on a very very good team. Perhaps that was not the focus of your statement but that is what I was addressing. Trent could "SUCK" on a very good team but he couldn't be "good" on a very good team. I'm still smarting from that embarrassing performance from yesterday so I don't REALLY believe Trent could be good ANYWHERE right now.

[The Big Cat]

The Steelers winning last year had A LOT to do with their defense. Hell Roethlisbergers stats in that game were not good.

 

B. Roethlisberger: 21/30 1 TD, 1 INT. And his lone TD came very late in the game.

 

21/30, and you conveniently left out his 256 yards and 92.3 rating. I'll take that statline ANY DAY from Trent. I think we all would. In fact, if he puts up those numbers against New Orleans, we win. Not only do we win, we can ALSO say the win "had a lot to do with their defense." Funny how those things coexist.

[Brandon]

How about the Front Office's decision to sign the second greatest receiver in the history of the NFL?

 

It doesn't make a bit of difference if the coaching staff and the QB can't find a way to get the ball to him.

 

The Owens signing is indicative of another major problem with this front office. They do everything half-a$$ed. They bring in an aging future HOF player like Owens, but they don't support him by making moves to improve the lackluster talent around him, both players and coaches. They signed him as a bandaid and considered the problem solved. Obviously, it wasn't.

[pBills]

21/30, and you conveniently left out his 256 yards and 92.3 rating. I'll take that statline ANY DAY from Trent. I think we all would. In fact, if he puts up those numbers against New Orleans, we win. Not only do we win, we can ALSO say the win "had a lot to do with their defense." Funny how those things coexist.

 

 

And he did nothing the first half except get bailed out by his defense.

 

I'm not going to sit here and argue about Ben. I really don't care. I think TE can play better, he has shown us that... question is can he come back from this and take the next step. Hopefully he will be able to do that. However nothing is going to happen unless other people on this team and within the coaching staff start to do their jobs as well.

 

We need some fire on this team... some passion.

[ricojes]

Maybe I misunderstood you. I was commenting on this point you were making:

 

 

 

Unless I'm mistaken PART of your point was that Edwards might be good on a very very good team. Perhaps that was not the focus of your statement but that is what I was addressing. Trent could "SUCK" on a very good team but he couldn't be "good" on a very good team. I'm still smarting from that embarrassing performance from yesterday so I don't REALLY believe Trent could be good ANYWHERE right now.

I think might implies, he might be good or he might not be good. But no biggy. I really have lost all faith in TE and I refuse to blame the coach's on this one. How do you game plan with a QB that isn't very good and doesn't do what you want him to do? It's got to suck. We want every OC out of here because of poor QB play. Well maybe it's time to look at the QB and stop blaming the coaches for everything, some people here think JP was run out of town because of poor coaching. That's just ridiculous, he just wasn't good. I am by no means giving the coaching staff a vote of confidence, they should go as well, but I don't think they are the main problem with the offense.

[DC Tom]

How about the Front Office's decision to sign the second greatest receiver in the history of the NFL?

 

This is sarcasm, right?

[Mickey]

Please don't add me to the Trent apologists camp. I've always liked him, yes, but I've also been a realist - I thought he had potential, and that he'd improve into a very good quarterback. I based this on his decision-making and accuracy in his first two years, and, specifically, plays he made in certain games (the Washington, Jacksonville, and Oakland games come to mind) - I hadn't seen QB play like that in Buffalo since Kelly.

 

But, sadly, as with young all QBs, there is a bit of a nature-versus-nurture issue that takes hold. IMO except for maybe the very rarest talents, a young QB cannot be successful, and will not develop properly, if certain basic conditions are not met. Thus, as we've seen time and time again in the NFL (David Carr, Tim Couch, Heath Shuler, there are a TON of other examples), if you subject a young QB to a situation where they have very little protection, their offensive coaches are inept and/or in a constant state of flux, and their organizations are just generally unstable, it KILLS their careers. They're unable to recover. They are shellshocked, lack confidence, and end up leaving the NFL much earlier than they should have. By contrast, if you take the most average QB and put them in a position where success is almost inevitable (see: Matt Cassell), they still have a good chance of blossoming and playing a long career.

 

Folks, IMO, and as had been my worry for a few years now, the Bills organization has destroyed Trent's career. If you've watched the last two games, you've seen it:no confidence, no time to throw, and when he does have time, his mental clock is broken and he just dumps it off. His mechanics are suffering (lots of high throws, because he's backpedaling). His offensive line is the least talented in the League, and on any given pass play, disaster could strike. His offensive coordinator has no clue how to call route combinations to succeed against any given defense, so Trent is being asked to do it all on his own. He's getting picked because he's making decisions he never would've made a year ago. His body language is awful. When he gets back to the sidelines after a tough play, HE HAS NO ONE TO TALK TO ABOUT IT, because the Bills' skeleton offensive coaching staff is upstairs in the booth. It's a really sad state of affairs, and there's a good chance that he'll never recover from it. He may become a serviceable backup in the League, to be sure, or perhaps even he'll be lucky enough to become the reclamation project of a great offensive coach - but it won't happen in this City, for reasons we're all to aware of.

 

I'm not saying Trent has no share in the blame. Surely he could thicken his skin, strengthen his resolve, dig deeper, study on his own, develop a back-against-the-wall gunslinger mentality and try to throw his way out of this mess. Doubtful it would do much good, but I'd commend him for it. We haven't seen that from him though, and it's rare.

 

I'll just add this final point for people to think about: the question of whether TE can get it done should NOT be looked at as an "objective" assessment, i.e., he either has "it" or he doesn't, and some of you told us so from the get-go, some of you were blinded by your love for him, etc. It's much more nuanced than that. It's fluid. He had the potential, people, we've all seen evidence of that. But there are so many other factors, organizational factors, that determine the final product. It's like a gifted kid from a poor neighborhood - he has it in him to do great things, but the odds are too stacked against him. Most of the time, they're too great to overcome.

 

Congrats Ralph, you've killed a smart, talented young QB's career.

Respectfully, I disagree. Certainly we have had lousy coaching and no doubt, with a better surrounding cast and more consistency in our schemes, Trent would be playing better than he is now. But so to would anyone you put behind center. Trent has shown his shortcomings often enough now that they can't all be passed off as the results of a crappy line, a crappy coordinator, etc., etc. As it turns out, Trent is still smart, but his talent was never all that great and where it really counts, having the guts of a gambler, he just doesn't have it, never did, likley never will.

 

He has 12 games left this year to try and show something and as skeptical as I am of him as a franchise QB, I am still holding out hope though I recognize that its more desparation than hope at this point.

 

A good QB is really hard to find. That is why they get paid so much. Teams should always be on the look out for overlooked talent and project guys because you always have to have a plan B. Which is why I can't understand why Gibron, likeable though he is, is still on this team. He is not and never will be a legit #2 let alone a starter. Is there no long shot, project, overlooked small school kind of guy out there anywhere that could be holding that spot? You can't get lucky a-la-Fred-Jackson if you don't take a gamble.

 

Yep, I admit it, desparation masked has hope. That is where I now live.

[PDaDdy]

I think might implies, he might be good or he might not be good. But no biggy. I really have lost all faith in TE and I refuse to blame the coach's on this one. How do you game plan with a QB that isn't very good and doesn't do what you want him to do? It's got to suck. We want every OC out of here because of poor QB play. Well maybe it's time to look at the QB and stop blaming the coaches for everything, some people here think JP was run out of town because of poor coaching. That's just ridiculous, he just wasn't good. I am by no means giving the coaching staff a vote of confidence, they should go as well, but I don't think they are the main problem with the offense.

 

Might means might...thanks for that revelation...lol...gee u iz smartez.

 

Yes might means there is a possibility. I don't think there is ANY possibility.