Coach Tuesday Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Please don't add me to the Trent apologists camp. I've always liked him, yes, but I've also been a realist - I thought he had potential, and that he'd improve into a very good quarterback. I based this on his decision-making and accuracy in his first two years, and, specifically, plays he made in certain games (the Washington, Jacksonville, and Oakland games come to mind) - I hadn't seen QB play like that in Buffalo since Kelly. But, sadly, as with young all QBs, there is a bit of a nature-versus-nurture issue that takes hold. IMO except for maybe the very rarest talents, a young QB cannot be successful, and will not develop properly, if certain basic conditions are not met. Thus, as we've seen time and time again in the NFL (David Carr, Tim Couch, Heath Shuler, there are a TON of other examples), if you subject a young QB to a situation where they have very little protection, their offensive coaches are inept and/or in a constant state of flux, and their organizations are just generally unstable, it KILLS their careers. They're unable to recover. They are shellshocked, lack confidence, and end up leaving the NFL much earlier than they should have. By contrast, if you take the most average QB and put them in a position where success is almost inevitable (see: Matt Cassell), they still have a good chance of blossoming and playing a long career. Folks, IMO, and as had been my worry for a few years now, the Bills organization has destroyed Trent's career. If you've watched the last two games, you've seen it:no confidence, no time to throw, and when he does have time, his mental clock is broken and he just dumps it off. His mechanics are suffering (lots of high throws, because he's backpedaling). His offensive line is the least talented in the League, and on any given pass play, disaster could strike. His offensive coordinator has no clue how to call route combinations to succeed against any given defense, so Trent is being asked to do it all on his own. He's getting picked because he's making decisions he never would've made a year ago. His body language is awful. When he gets back to the sidelines after a tough play, HE HAS NO ONE TO TALK TO ABOUT IT, because the Bills' skeleton offensive coaching staff is upstairs in the booth. It's a really sad state of affairs, and there's a good chance that he'll never recover from it. He may become a serviceable backup in the League, to be sure, or perhaps even he'll be lucky enough to become the reclamation project of a great offensive coach - but it won't happen in this City, for reasons we're all to aware of. I'm not saying Trent has no share in the blame. Surely he could thicken his skin, strengthen his resolve, dig deeper, study on his own, develop a back-against-the-wall gunslinger mentality and try to throw his way out of this mess. Doubtful it would do much good, but I'd commend him for it. We haven't seen that from him though, and it's rare. I'll just add this final point for people to think about: the question of whether TE can get it done should NOT be looked at as an "objective" assessment, i.e., he either has "it" or he doesn't, and some of you told us so from the get-go, some of you were blinded by your love for him, etc. It's much more nuanced than that. It's fluid. He had the potential, people, we've all seen evidence of that. But there are so many other factors, organizational factors, that determine the final product. It's like a gifted kid from a poor neighborhood - he has it in him to do great things, but the odds are too stacked against him. Most of the time, they're too great to overcome. Congrats Ralph, you've killed a smart, talented young QB's career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 But, sadly, as with young all QBs, there is a bit of a nature-versus-nurture issue that takes hold. IMO except for maybe the very rarest talents, a young QB cannot be successful, and will not develop properly, if certain basic conditions are not met. Except for: Ryan Flacco Roethlisberger Brady Rodgers Rivers Cutler Well, so much for that theory. In the era of the successful rookie QB, for the Bills to not be able to pick one for over 10 years is just inexcusable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Is it really that much of surprise, though? They've ruined every young QB they've brought in for almost 20 years now. I'd hate to be a QB drafted by the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Please don't add me to the Trent apologists camp. I've always liked him, yes, but I've also been a realist - I thought he had potential, and that he'd improve into a very good quarterback. I based this on his decision-making and accuracy in his first two years, and, specifically, plays he made in certain games (the Washington, Jacksonville, and Oakland games come to mind) - I hadn't seen QB play like that in Buffalo since Kelly. But, sadly, as with young all QBs, there is a bit of a nature-versus-nurture issue that takes hold. IMO except for maybe the very rarest talents, a young QB cannot be successful, and will not develop properly, if certain basic conditions are not met. Thus, as we've seen time and time again in the NFL (David Carr, Tim Couch, Heath Shuler, there are a TON of other examples), if you subject a young QB to a situation where they have very little protection, their offensive coaches are inept and/or in a constant state of flux, and their organizations are just generally unstable, it KILLS their careers. They're unable to recover. They are shellshocked, lack confidence, and end up leaving the NFL much earlier than they should have. By contrast, if you take the most average QB and put them in a position where success is almost inevitable (see: Matt Cassell), they still have a good chance of blossoming and playing a long career. Folks, IMO, and as had been my worry for a few years now, the Bills organization has destroyed Trent's career. If you've watched the last two games, you've seen it:no confidence, no time to throw, and when he does have time, his mental clock is broken and he just dumps it off. His mechanics are suffering (lots of high throws, because he's backpedaling). His offensive line is the least talented in the League, and on any given pass play, disaster could strike. His offensive coordinator has no clue how to call route combinations to succeed against any given defense, so Trent is being asked to do it all on his own. He's getting picked because he's making decisions he never would've made a year ago. His body language is awful. When he gets back to the sidelines after a tough play, HE HAS NO ONE TO TALK TO ABOUT IT, because the Bills' skeleton offensive coaching staff is upstairs in the booth. It's a really sad state of affairs, and there's a good chance that he'll never recover from it. He may become a serviceable backup in the League, to be sure, or perhaps even he'll be lucky enough to become the reclamation project of a great offensive coach - but it won't happen in this City, for reasons we're all to aware of. I'm not saying Trent has no share in the blame. Surely he could thicken his skin, strengthen his resolve, dig deeper, study on his own, develop a back-against-the-wall gunslinger mentality and try to throw his way out of this mess. Doubtful it would do much good, but I'd commend him for it. We haven't seen that from him though, and it's rare. I'll just add this final point for people to think about: the question of whether TE can get it done should NOT be looked at as an "objective" assessment, i.e., he either has "it" or he doesn't, and some of you told us so from the get-go, some of you were blinded by your love for him, etc. It's much more nuanced than that. It's fluid. He had the potential, people, we've all seen evidence of that. But there are so many other factors, organizational factors, that determine the final product. It's like a gifted kid from a poor neighborhood - he has it in him to do great things, but the odds are too stacked against him. Most of the time, they're too great to overcome. Congrats Ralph, you've killed a smart, talented young QB's career. Excellent post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayFinkle Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Except for: Ryan Flacco Roethlisberger Brady Rodgers Rivers Cutler Well, so much for that theory. In the era of the successful rookie QB, for the Bills to not be able to pick one for over 10 years is just inexcusable. Do you honestly believe that any of those players would be who they are today if the Bills had drafted them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricojes Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 The thing with Trent is that everything has to be perfect for him to excel. The line needs to give him great protection, the running game has to be clicking on all cylinders, the weather needs to be great...yada, yada, yada, you get the idea. But unfortunately perfect conditions rarely exist in the NFL and Trent cannot win games on his own. The Bills need a franchise QB that can carry a team and make plays in tough conditions and TE is simply not that type of QB. I thought he had potential and he probably could be a nice "system" QB, but that's not what the Bills need at this point and time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLynchTrain Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Except for: Ryan Flacco Roethlisberger Brady Rodgers Rivers Cutler Well, so much for that theory. In the era of the successful rookie QB, for the Bills to not be able to pick one for over 10 years is just inexcusable. Do you have any idea how good the offensive lines were for each of these respective players during their rookie years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLZFAN4LIFE Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Do you honestly believe that any of those players would be who they are today if the Bills had drafted them? Maybe Roethlisberger. Big durable guy who can raise the level of players around him. Other then that no. This organization would have ruined the careers of every one of the other Qb's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zow2 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I don't believe an organization can "ruin" or destroy a QB's career. The QB's in this league who are very good have a certain quality. It's known as the "IT" factor because it's a combination of smarts, arm, leadership, confidence, pocket presence, accuracy, etc... If you put those QB's listed on the Bills (i.w.Ryan,Flacco,Roethlisberger,Brady,Rodgers,Rivers,Cutler) they would certainly be throwing up some 300 yd games even in a losing effort. The Bills can't even pass for 300 when they are behind which is automatic for most teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drifter Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Except for: Ryan Flacco Roethlisberger Brady Rodgers Rivers Cutler Well, so much for that theory. In the era of the successful rookie QB, for the Bills to not be able to pick one for over 10 years is just inexcusable. Every QB you listed started with good offensive lines. You give more credibility to his point. Without a competent line a young QB can not be successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Except for: Ryan Flacco Roethlisberger Brady Rodgers Rivers Cutler Well, so much for that theory. In the era of the successful rookie QB, for the Bills to not be able to pick one for over 10 years is just inexcusable. thats the entire point. its not that young QBs cant be successful. its that they cant be successful on the BILLS. we've systematically ruined QB after QB. you think if Flacco or Rogers or even Brady were a Bill, theyd have been successful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 Some folks here are already missing the point. The issue isn't whether Edwards has the magic to defy all odds and win games in the most QB-adverse conditions. It's whether, regardless of where his ceiling is or was, he's been forever crippled as a player by virtue of the shoddy foundation that has been put in place. In my view, he has. THAT is the premise of my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 The thing with Trent is that everything has to be perfect for him to excel. The line needs to give him great protection, the running game has to be clicking on all cylinders, the weather needs to be great...yada, yada, yada, you get the idea. But unfortunately perfect conditions rarely exist in the NFL and Trent cannot win games on his own. The Bills simply need a franchise QB that can carry a team and make plays in tough conditions and TE is not the answer. I thought he had potential and probably could be a nice "system" QB, but that's not what the Bills need at this point and time. That's been said of every QB the Bills have had since Jim Kelly retired. Edwards is a bit limited, but I don't think he's as bad as he looks on this team. Coaching is the real problem. In the last decade plus, the Bills have tried to get by with the cheapest offensive coaching staff they can find and in the end, they've gotten what they paid for, which isn't much. The QBs are victims of this type of front office idiocy as much as the players at any other position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Oh for goodness sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Some folks here are already missing the point. The issue isn't whether Edwards has the magic to defy all odds and win games in the most QB-adverse conditions. It's whether, regardless of where his ceiling is or was, he's been forever crippled as a player by virtue of the shoddy foundation that has been put in place. In my view, he has. THAT is the premise of my post. Then please, if you're going to specifically single out a player the organization has killed, please be specific as to how this was done. Explain to me how having a carousel of offensive coordinators has rendered Trent unable to throw a pass 15 yards up the seam. Explain how the organization has failed to teach a professional quarterback it's not okay to lock on to a receiver. Explain how the organization has failed to teach a professional quarterback how to step up in the pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricojes Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 That's been said of every QB the Bills have had since Jim Kelly retired. Edwards is a bit limited, but I don't think he's as bad as he looks on this team. Coaching is the real problem. In the last decade plus, the Bills have tried to get by with the cheapest offensive coaching staff they can find and in the end, they've gotten what they paid for, which isn't much. The QBs are victims of this type of front office idiocy as much as the players at any other position. Would you mind listing that stellar cast of QB's. Edwards might be good on a very very good team, as I said in my post, he could be a very good system QB. But he is not an elite QB, who can win when conditions aren't optimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills44 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Please don't add me to the Trent apologists camp. I've always liked him, yes, but I've also been a realist - I thought he had potential, and that he'd improve into a very good quarterback. I based this on his decision-making and accuracy in his first two years, and, specifically, plays he made in certain games (the Washington, Jacksonville, and Oakland games come to mind) - I hadn't seen QB play like that in Buffalo since Kelly. Wow - pretty much every Bills QB since Kelly has had a few good games, but like Trent, most of their bodies of work as a Bills QB have sucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Hell even Kelly would have been traded or let go if he played today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Would you mind listing that stellar cast of QB's... There haven't been any, but that's the point. The Bills have had about a dozen QBs in that period, some more talented than the others, but they all look about the same on the field and suffered from the problems you mentioned. Meanwhile, what hasn't really changed? The sh** quality of coaching that the QBs and the rest of the offense have received over the same time period. Until their philosophy of hiring the cheapest coaches they can find changes, the lousy play of the QBs and offense in general won't change, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary M Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Congrats Ralph, you've killed a smart, talented young QB's career. But he has Poise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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