Thurman#1 Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 He is thorough, on his 60 minutes interview it was revealed that he selects the toilet paper for the players to use at training camp. Little tiny bits of gravel in it? To toughen them up?
Max997 Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 Gruden or Shanahan would be fine with me! Get er done Ralph! HA...you are dreaming if you think there is even a remote shot of either of them coaching the Bills next year
billsfan_34 Posted October 4, 2009 Author Posted October 4, 2009 What if the thought in the organization (or around the league at the time) is that the underlying talent level of that particular team was ACTUALLY 15-36?* Would you still be baffled? Are you baffled that Bill Belichick was a colossal failure in Cleveland? What about Jimmie Johnson's years in Miami? How about Joe Gibbs' awful return? Three years ago, John Fox and Marvin Williams were geniuses. Today? What about Tom Coughlin? New Yorkers wanted to string him up by his testicles. Today? How is it that a guy is a ManGENIUS when Brett Favre's bicep isn't about to fall off but an idiot and fireable when it finally does? If John Fox is such a great coach, (and I want you to think about this) how is it even POSSIBLE that Carolina is considering firing him? *I make no claim that the Bills were actually a 15-36 team over the past three years. Simply making an observation. Edit: Eh... this post came off harder than I wanted it to. I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm genuinely interested in answers from everybody on this. Why don't people think that talent level overwhelms coaching ability? I mean, isn't the evidence there for everyone to see every year in the league? Have you watched him coach on Gameday...mistake after mistake This is Jaurons third goat rope. Him and bellicheat arent even in the same league when it comes to coachin. No offense taken..its all in good fun.
billsfan_34 Posted October 4, 2009 Author Posted October 4, 2009 HA...you are dreaming if you think there is even a remote shot of either of them coaching the Bills next year I know its a longshot, but it sure would be nice.
Doc Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 Jauron needs to go. I've seen enough from him to know the Bills won't go far in the playoffs, if they somehow make them. The problem is, I hope the Bills do well this year and make the playoffs, but if they do, it means Jauron sticks around for another year.
jjamie12 Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 Have you watched him coach on Gameday...mistake after mistake This is Jaurons third goat rope. Him and bellicheat arent even in the same league when it comes to coachin. No offense taken..its all in good fun. But let's put Jauron aside for the moment... What happened to Belichick in Cleveland? Why did he fail miserably? If John Fox is such a great coach, why are the Panthers even considering firing him? If Gruden is such a great coach, why did he get fired last year? I know why I think those things happen, but I am genuniely interested in hearing others' takes on it. There are countless examples of this. Here are a few things I can think of: Do Coaches 'slump'? Do talent differences overwhelm coaching differences? Do Coaches only work well with one particlular kind of team?
RyanC882 Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 What if the thought in the organization (or around the league at the time) is that the underlying talent level of that particular team was ACTUALLY 15-36?* Would you still be baffled? Are you baffled that Bill Belichick was a colossal failure in Cleveland? What about Jimmie Johnson's years in Miami? How about Joe Gibbs' awful return? Three years ago, John Fox and Marvin Williams were geniuses. Today? What about Tom Coughlin? New Yorkers wanted to string him up by his testicles. Today? Why do you think that is? How is it that a guy is a ManGENIUS when Brett Favre's bicep isn't about to fall off but an idiot and fireable when it finally does? If John Fox is such a great coach, (and I want you to think about this) how is it even POSSIBLE that Carolina is considering firing him? *I make no claim that the Bills were actually a 15-36 team over the past three years. Simply making an observation. Edit: Eh... this post came off harder than I wanted it to. I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm genuinely interested in answers from everybody on this. Why don't people think that talent level overwhelms coaching ability? I mean, isn't the evidence there for everyone to see every year in the league? Good point. But the Bills HAVE TALENT. Two pro bowl WR's, a pro bowl RB, and another (Jackson) would would make the prob bowl if he played all year. Most high school coaches could score one or more TD's per game with this talent, regardless of who is playing O line. The Steelers had a terrible O line last year (and this year) but won the SB. We have a better O line, better talent, and can't beat a half way decent team. DJ needs to go!
RyanC882 Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 Good point. But the Bills HAVE TALENT. Two pro bowl WR's, a pro bowl RB, and another (Jackson) would would make the prob bowl if he played all year. Most high school coaches could score one or more TD's per game with this talent, regardless of who is playing O line. The Steelers had a terrible O line last year (and this year) but won the SB. We have a better O line, better talent, and can't beat a half way decent team. DJ needs to go!
cantstopbeastmode Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 What if the thought in the organization (or around the league at the time) is that the underlying talent level of that particular team was ACTUALLY 15-36?* Would you still be baffled? Are you baffled that Bill Belichick was a colossal failure in Cleveland? What about Jimmie Johnson's years in Miami? How about Joe Gibbs' awful return? Three years ago, John Fox and Marvin Williams were geniuses. Today? What about Tom Coughlin? New Yorkers wanted to string him up by his testicles. Today? Why do you think that is? How is it that a guy is a ManGENIUS when Brett Favre's bicep isn't about to fall off but an idiot and fireable when it finally does? If John Fox is such a great coach, (and I want you to think about this) how is it even POSSIBLE that Carolina is considering firing him? *I make no claim that the Bills were actually a 15-36 team over the past three years. Simply making an observation. Edit: Eh... this post came off harder than I wanted it to. I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm genuinely interested in answers from everybody on this. Why don't people think that talent level overwhelms coaching ability? I mean, isn't the evidence there for everyone to see every year in the league? How did miami go from 1-15 to 11-5 in one year, when they lost the leagues defensive MVP that year? By bringing in Pennington? Jake Long? How did NE go 11-5 last year starting matt cassel and benjarvus green ellis? Is Bart Scott really a big enough talent change so that the Jets go from bad to unbelievably good? Why is it that an offense featuring Pierre Thomas, Drew Brees, Marques Colston, and Robert Meachem is top 2-3 in the league, while an offense featuring Marshawn Lynch, Fred Jackson, Lee Evans, and Terrell Owens can't get a TD all game long? It's because of talent, really?
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 But let's put Jauron aside for the moment... What happened to Belichick in Cleveland? Why did he fail miserably? If John Fox is such a great coach, why are the Panthers even considering firing him? If Gruden is such a great coach, why did he get fired last year? I know why I think those things happen, but I am genuniely interested in hearing others' takes on it. There are countless examples of this. Here are a few things I can think of: Do Coaches 'slump'? Do talent differences overwhelm coaching differences? Do Coaches only work well with one particlular kind of team? Gruden, Shanahan, Cowher, Holmgren, Dungy, etc. have all shown that they can win in this league and win championships. And, to put Dick Jauron's name right back in to the conversation, Jauron hasn't shown he can win in this league -- he's more than a season under .500 lifetime, and has never won a playoff game and only coached in 1 of them in 8 years, a blowout. Why do coaches move around? Might just as well ask why so many players move around the NFL in free agency, etc. Free agency doesn't mean the player can't play any more than the coach can't coach. There are any number of reasons a coach may leave a team. Just look at the list above. Reasons: he wants more control, he has too much control, he wants a higher salary, he feels burned out, he wants to be closer to home, he wants to spend time with his family, he has other interests in life, he may no longer be on the same page as others in the front office, the owner may have Alzheimer's or otherwise mercurial, etc.
jjamie12 Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 Good point. But the Bills HAVE TALENT. Two pro bowl WR's, a pro bowl RB, and another (Jackson) would would make the prob bowl if he played all year. Most high school coaches could score one or more TD's per game with this talent, regardless of who is playing O line. The Steelers had a terrible O line last year (and this year) but won the SB. We have a better O line, better talent, and can't beat a half way decent team. DJ needs to go! [Desperately trying to not make this thread about Jauron, specifically...] Lee Evans has NEVER been a Pro-Bowler. Marshawn Lynch has never made a Pro-Bowl. TO was a pro-bowler 2 years ago, and is now 35. It is pretty obvious he isn't a pro-bowler anymore (just watch corners jam him at the line. He's having trouble getting a good release). Which isn't to say that he's not talented, he's just not a pro-bowler. Fred Jackson would make the pro-bowl if he played all year? Really? Since the guy ahead of him hasn't made a pro-bowl, ever, I just don't get that comment. (If these guys have been to the pro-bowl and I don't know about it, I apologize, and I'll be wrong, and I'll say I'm wrong and I give you guys permission to horsewhip me through the inter-tubes) [Phew... done with Jauron] Leaving aside the Jauron question (it is not my intention to defend him here) Please see the posts above this of mine. If coaching is so important, how have the following guys ever gotten fired: Dick Vermeil Joe Gibbs Jon Gruden Bill Belichick etc... If Jon Fox (the speculation at the beginning of this thread) is such a good coach, how is it possible that Carolina is even considering firing him? How is it that Jon Gruden got fired last year? Did Jimmie Johnson just become a worse coach in Miami? What is it that makes a 'good' coach turn into a guy who deserves to get fired?
jjamie12 Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 Gruden, Shanahan, Cowher, Holmgren, Dungy, etc. have all shown that they can win in this league and win championships. And, to put Dick Jauron's name right back in to the conversation, Jauron hasn't shown he can win in this league -- he's more than a season under .500 lifetime, and has never won a playoff game and only coached in 1 of them in 8 years, a blowout. Why do coaches move around? Might just as well ask why so many players move around the NFL in free agency, etc. Free agency doesn't mean the player can't play any more than the coach can't coach. There are any number of reasons a coach may leave a team. Just look at the list above. Reasons: he wants more control, he has too much control, he wants a higher salary, he feels burned out, he wants to be closer to home, he wants to spend time with his family, he has other interests in life, he may no longer be on the same page as others in the front office, the owner may have Alzheimer's or otherwise mercurial, etc. I'm talking about guys who get fired. Gruden. Belichick. Shanahan. These guys got fired. Joe Gibbs came back and was awful, just as an example. Jon Fox is under heavy fire in Charlotte... why is that? Isn't he a 'good' coach? What of Jimmie Johnson in Miami? Why couldn't he get them to win there? Did he lose some of his 'good coach' ability? I'm not arguing with you, I'm asking the question: What makes a 'good' coach seemingly lose his ability to be a 'good' coach? How does a 'good coach' get fired? You're answering a question I'm not asking...
BuffOrange Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 If you think Jauron is too conservative, Fox is not the direction you want to go.
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 I'm asking the question: What makes a 'good' coach seemingly lose his ability to be a 'good' coach? How does a 'good coach' get fired? You're answering a question I'm not asking... You're asking an unanswerable question about the an individual role in a dynamic organization. You want a general conclusion to a hypothesis about an individual's title in a particular field of organizations and why changes are made in that position even though the individuals are unique and the organizational situations are diverse. Your question is the equivalent of "Why do corporations fire executive staff?" or "Why is there turnover amongst finish carpenters?" Even legendary coaches like Landry, Shula, Noll, etc. (add Joe Pa, Bear Bryant, Bobby Bowden if you want) seem to run out of gas at some point. Does that mean they were never really "good"? There is no general conclusion because every situation is unique and different. Situations change. Talent does play a part, obviously, in a football team's success and failure. Still, if you take the Don Shula example, he had a Hall-of-Fame QB in Dan Marino and collected All-Pros in south Florida like it was a fire sale, and yet he still never got over the hump and won a Super Bowl towards the end. So there is a counterexample that pops the "it's all QB" simplistic balloon.
jjamie12 Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 You're asking an unanswerable question about the an individual role in a dynamic organization. You want a general conclusion to a hypothesis about an individual's title in a particular field of organizations and why changes are made in that position even though the individuals are unique and the organizational situations are diverse. Your question is the equivalent of "Why do corporations fire executive staff?" or "Why is there turnover amongst finish carpenters?" No. I'm (quite literally) asking for the reasons behind the action: How does a 'good' coach become a coach who deserves to be fired? Literally, how does it happen? I only see a few possibilities: 1- Coaches 'slump' 2- Specific coaches work well with only specific teams 3- Talent level overwhelms coaching 'ability' 4- Some combination of 1 and 2. (If talent level overwhelms coaching ability, then 3, by definition, isn't lumped in with 1 and 2.)
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 No. I'm (quite literally) asking for the reasons behind the action: How does a 'good' coach become a coach who deserves to be fired? Literally, how does it happen? I only see a few possibilities: 1- Coaches 'slump' 2- Specific coaches work well with only specific teams 3- Talent level overwhelms coaching 'ability' 4- Some combination of 1 and 2. (If talent level overwhelms coaching ability, then 3, by definition, isn't lumped in with 1 and 2.) You forgot: The 'good' (why is this always in quotes?) coach doesn't really deserve to be fired in the first place -- it is a misguided and bad decision based on politics. Of course, if you allow that, your question becomes circular because you now need a way to prove a coach is/was "'good'" and also deserves to be fired. You also forgot: The retention and firing of coaches is not always performance related. Dick Jauron is an obvious example. When Jerry Jones fired Jimmy Johnson is another obvious example. Let's take a concrete example. Wade Phillips is a pretty good coach. (Not sure what the definition of 'good' is, so roll with it.) He's a great DC. He had some success in Buffalo. Ralph Wilson fired him. Was it because he could no longer coach and 'slumped'? Was it because he didn't work well with the team? Or was it because the talent level overwhelmed his 'ability'? Answer: None of the above. He was fired for political reasons. He fought to have control over his staff and the owner fired him.
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