K-9 Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 I've never moved my marker one bit. I have said from the start Trent doesn't have a big arm. Yes Cutler and Russell are rare. I'M saying he doesn't have an arm as strong as Jason Campbell, Travaris Jackson, Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Tom Brady, etc. Brady doesn't have a huge arm by the way either but he is obviously effective. I'll trust what I see on game day and what people say about him now that he is in the NFL over predraft reports. When I make an assessment of Trent not having a big time arm your retort is to compare him to the elite of the elite and argue his effectiveness. You're defending a point I am not attacking. It's takin' you a while to realize it but this is what I was saying from the start. I've never wavered from this. YOU tried to take my point elsewhere! A WR doesn't have to have 4.3 speed in today's game to be successful but it sure as hell don't hurt. They just have to play the game differently than a guy with more speed. They do however lack the dimension of being able to be successful using speed. Edwards lacks the dimension of being able to beat you ALSO with arm strength that many other QBs possess. 1.) What people? Yeah, I know. The fans. 2.) My retort is simply that TE possesses more than adequate arm strength as an NFL QB. Your use of terms like "big time NFL arm" invites the comparison to the elite strong arms in the league. In an earlier post you also invited comparisons by suggesting TE doesn't have the arm strength in the upper half of the league's QBs. Again, my answer is, so what? 3.) And yet he HAS beaten people with the long pass. And DCs HAVE made it a point to take away the deep threat over the top (something they DON'T do if it's perceived a QB can't get a ball deep). Still in all I'd rather have a QB that lacks the dimension to beat you with arm strength but who can beat you by being a better QB than vice-versa. Edwards can do both so I'm not worried in that regard. He needs to be more consistent. And he needs to stay confident (read: not be afraid to F up). In short, it's better to have a QB than than a "thrower." Edwards sill has a long way to go to get there. And he's STILL gonna screw the pooch a bunch of times. His arm strength, however, is simply not in question. Other things you've mentioned like timing, etc. are legitimate questions. GO BILLS!!!
PDaDdy Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 1.) What people? Yeah, I know. The fans. 2.) My retort is simply that TE possesses more than adequate arm strength as an NFL QB. Your use of terms like "big time NFL arm" invites the comparison to the elite strong arms in the league. In an earlier post you also invited comparisons by suggesting TE doesn't have the arm strength in the upper half of the league's QBs. Again, my answer is, so what? 3.) And yet he HAS beaten people with the long pass. And DCs HAVE made it a point to take away the deep threat over the top (something they DON'T do if it's perceived a QB can't get a ball deep). Still in all I'd rather have a QB that lacks the dimension to beat you with arm strength but who can beat you by being a better QB than vice-versa. Edwards can do both so I'm not worried in that regard. He needs to be more consistent. And he needs to stay confident (read: not be afraid to F up). In short, it's better to have a QB than than a "thrower." Edwards sill has a long way to go to get there. And he's STILL gonna screw the pooch a bunch of times. His arm strength, however, is simply not in question. Other things you've mentioned like timing, etc. are legitimate questions. GO BILLS!!! What do you NOT get about my statement that he doesn't have a strong arm? What other points of yours have I disputed? Seriously, get on point man. In other words I actually agree with a lot of what you said. On the issues of arm strength Trent is not in the top 1/3 to 1/2 of NFL QBs. Unless you are disputing that we really have nothing to discuss. Also all of the questions you pose I have already answered. Not going to type them again but my points regarding your questions are already there.
Bill from NYC Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 You DO realize that Lee doesn't only run go routes right? Do do also realize that a rainbow can still beat a defense deep if the WR is wide open right? Our point is he doesn't have a strong arm! How are things in Vegas?
stuckincincy Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 I don't put much stock in long ball, physical tools and such. In the few times I watched Edwards play previously - eh. I got to see the 1st two games this season. My impression is that he's woken up and is beginning to grasp the concept of command, the force of will to direct an offense. He certainly bounced back from hard hits, confidence unshaken in Sunday's game against TB.
PDaDdy Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 How are things in Vegas? Heh heh. He wasn't the answer either buddy. I always thought that if we could put Trents head in JPs body we would have a great Frankenstein QB!!!!
Steely Dan Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 WRONG... If people pose the question based on in game observations...there is one. If you mean "fans" by "people" then your basing your opinion on mostly uneducated opinions. When I see a scouting report saying Trent has a big time NFL arm ...I'LL BELIEVE YOU!!! Funny how two people can see the same thing and come up with vastly different conclusions. I guess I missed the praise for Edwards big arm and deep threat capability during every single game of his I've seen. Again, show me the scouting reports! http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile...prospect_id=468 http://www.warroomreport.com/draft/rankings/qb/edwards.htm There are others but suffice it to say I don't see where anyone questions his arm strength. GO BILLS!!! I guess he believes you now. Oh, wait. I've never moved my marker one bit. I have said from the start Trent doesn't have a big arm. Yes Cutler and Russell are rare. I'M saying he doesn't have an arm as strong as Jason Campbell, Travaris Jackson, Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Tom Brady, etc. Brady doesn't have a huge arm by the way either but he is obviously effective. When I see a scouting report saying Trent has a big time NFL arm ...I'LL BELIEVE YOU!!! I'll trust what I see on game day and what people say about him now that he is in the NFL over predraft reports. When I make an assessment of Trent not having a big time arm your retort is to compare him to the elite of the elite and argue his effectiveness. You're defending a point I am not attacking. It's takin' you a while to realize it but this is what I was saying from the start. I've never wavered from this. YOU tried to take my point elsewhere! A WR doesn't have to have 4.3 speed in today's game to be successful but it sure as hell don't hurt. They just have to play the game differently than a guy with more speed. They do however lack the dimension of being able to be successful using speed. Edwards lacks the dimension of being able to beat you ALSO with arm strength that many other QBs possess. Can you explain your confounding posts. Do you believe one thing or the other?
Chandler#81 Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 I don't put much stock in long ball, physical tools and such. In the few times I watched Edwards play previously - eh. I got to see the 1st two games this season. My impression is that he's woken up and is beginning to grasp the concept of command, the force of will to direct an offense. He certainly bounced back from hard hits, confidence unshaken in sunday's game against TB. THIS! There's a brand new injury sweeping the NFL this season: Broken ribs-IN THE BACK! on QB'S!! Hasselback and McNabb are in misery!! Note to Trent: GET DOWN!!
PDaDdy Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 I don't put much stock in long ball, physical tools and such. In the few times I watched Edwards play previously - eh. I got to see the 1st two games this season. My impression is that he's woken up and is beginning to grasp the concept of command, the force of will to direct an offense. He certainly bounced back from hard hits, confidence unshaken in sunday's game against TB. I have been hard on the guy but he has given fans some hope coming out of the gate. I hope he keeps it up.
Peter Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Yeah, well Joe Montana didn't have a strong arm either and look how well he did. You mean Checkdown Joe Montana. Or, Checkdown Tom Brady. Sarcasm off. Let's face it, there are some people on this board who will forever pick nits when it comes to Trent. The guy has had two good games to start out the season. As I have mentioned before, Trent's arm is fine. JP's ball speed at combine - 57.3 mph JP and Big Ben's ball speed at combine Trent's ball speed at combine For those of you who constantly critique Trent's arm strength, you will note that the Hefty Lefty's ball speed was 60.7 mph whereas Big Ben's was 55.7 mph at the same combine. 55.7 mph is just .5 more than Trent's average ball speed at his combine.
PDaDdy Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 If you mean "fans" by "people" then your basing your opinion on mostly uneducated opinions. I guess he believes you now. Oh, wait. I'll trust what I see on game day and what people say about him now that he is in the NFL over predraft reports. When I make an assessment of Trent not having a big time arm your retort is to compare him to the elite of the elite and argue his effectiveness. You're defending a point I am not attacking. It's takin' you a while to realize it but this is what I was saying from the start. I've never wavered from this. YOU tried to take my point elsewhere! A WR doesn't have to have 4.3 speed in today's game to be successful but it sure as hell don't hurt. They just have to play the game differently than a guy with more speed. They do however lack the dimension of being able to be successful using speed. Edwards lacks the dimension of being able to beat you ALSO with arm strength that many other QBs possess. Can you explain your confounding posts. Do you believe one thing or the other? Gladly if you can explain your confounding question of a post. Not trying to be a jerk but it's all over the place with multiple quotes and things out of order.
K-9 Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 What do you NOT get about my statement that he doesn't have a strong arm? What other points of yours have I disputed? Seriously, get on point man. In other words I actually agree with a lot of what you said. On the issues of arm strength Trent is not in the top 1/3 to 1/2 of NFL QBs. Unless you are disputing that we really have nothing to discuss. Also all of the questions you pose I have already answered. Not going to type them again but my points regarding your questions are already there. Yes, I'm disputing exactly that. By what criteria do you assess his weak arm strength? By your own admission it's by what you see on TV. I'm saying some people, people who get paid to assess arm strength, strongly disagree with your assessment. Hell, even those who do it for a hobby disagree. Likewise, I'm not going to repeat what's already been said. I'll just say Edwards is indeed in the top half of the league in arm strength. Again, I'll take the word of people I know who know better. It's been fun. GO BILLS!!!
Jerry Jabber Posted September 22, 2009 Author Posted September 22, 2009 You mean Checkdown Joe Montana. Or, Checkdown Tom Brady. Sarcasm off. Let's face it, there are some people on this board who will forever pick nits when it comes to Trent. The guy has had two good games to start out the season. As I have mentioned before, Trent's arm is fine. JP's ball speed at combine - 57.3 mph JP and Big Ben's ball speed at combine Trent's ball speed at combine For those of you who constantly critique Trent's arm strength, you will note that the Hefty Lefty's ball speed was 60.7 mph whereas Big Ben's was 55.7 mph at the same combine. 55.7 mph is just .5 more than Trent's average ball speed at his combine. I agree. I would rather a QB that is very acccurate in the short to intermediate pass than a guy that can throw it 80 yards down the field.
wnyguy Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 I agree. I would rather a QB that is very acccurate in the short to intermediate pass than a guy that can throw it 80 yards down the field. Really? Did you catch Pennington and the Dolphins two minute drill last night? Pennington has the highest completion percentage in the league but can't throw the deep ball when his team needs it.
Peter Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Really? Did you catch Pennington and the Dolphins two minute drill last night? Pennington has the highest completion percentage in the league but can't throw the deep ball when his team needs it. He also threw what would have been the game winning TD at the end of the game if Ted Ginn Jr. held on to the ball.
wnyguy Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 He also threw what would have been the game winning TD at the end of the game if Ted Ginn Jr. held on to the ball. Yes... well....I was hoping you wouldn't bring up that point but I can see that you're more than a match for me.
Steely Dan Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Gladly if you can explain your confounding question of a post. Not trying to be a jerk but it's all over the place with multiple quotes and things out of order. They are your quotes that are all over the place. That's the point. Can you explain why in one post you say; "I've never moved my marker one bit." And in another say: "When I see a scouting report saying Trent has a big time NFL arm ...I'LL BELIEVE YOU!!!" Then after seeing two scouting reports you say; "I'll trust what I see on game day and what people say about him now that he is in the NFL over predraft reports." Then you say; "I've never wavered from this. YOU tried to take my point elsewhere!" Please don't do anything other than explain these opposing thoughts, thanks.
PDaDdy Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 You mean Checkdown Joe Montana. Or, Checkdown Tom Brady. Sarcasm off. Let's face it, there are some people on this board who will forever pick nits when it comes to Trent. The guy has had two good games to start out the season. As I have mentioned before, Trent's arm is fine. JP's ball speed at combine - 57.3 mph JP and Big Ben's ball speed at combine Trent's ball speed at combine For those of you who constantly critique Trent's arm strength, you will note that the Hefty Lefty's ball speed was 60.7 mph whereas Big Ben's was 55.7 mph at the same combine. 55.7 mph is just .5 more than Trent's average ball speed at his combine. I'll give you this you did some research. I did the same about a year ago it was I'll guess and found those different sources of information. I wished it could have been the same site providing the information. I hate to be that guy but those numbers don't jive with what I, NFL pundits and yes some fans see. Yes the OBVIOUSLY dumb fans that think Trent has a less than stellar arm, not the obvious smart fans who think otherwise. Perhaps under combine conditions Edward's arm really isn't that far behind some other guys. At the same time I see what I see week in and week out. I could go through the math again and try to give "tardnation" some thing to double check with his slide rule for a chance to try to belittle someone and feel superior about a non football opinion math error projection but I won't bother. I went through the trouble of comparing Trent's combine rated arm speed based of these questionable sources stats vs JP at the time. A 2.4mph difference in ball speed for a 40 yard pass traveling an imaginary straight line yielded and appreciable amount of time something in the order of a few tenths of a sec longer for the ball to get there. Take into consideration that in reality a ball travels in and arc and we are talking about even more time. Considering many DBs have 4.4, 4.3 speed and they can cover a LOT of ground in that time. This means that a DB can close on a WR and make a play on the ball much easier with only a 2+ mph difference in ball speed. This can make the difference between QBs where they both than throw the over the shoulder rainbow to the outside or to a WR that got behind the coverage. But the one with the greater ball speed can make that deep down the middle of the field throw between defenders. Again for the cheap seats and the Trent nut sack swingers. THIS DOESN'T MEAN THAT TRENT CAN'T BE EFFECTIVE! This just means that Trent can't make some throws that some other QBs can make. No amount of timing allows you to jam a ball into that tight window when it opens up. You need brute force!
Jerry Jabber Posted September 22, 2009 Author Posted September 22, 2009 Really? Did you catch Pennington and the Dolphins two minute drill last night? Pennington has the highest completion percentage in the league but can't throw the deep ball when his team needs it. Pennington & the Dolphins didn't do a good job at the hurry up offense. They wasted too much time and should have gotten further down the field. They ran the ball way too much during their 2 minute drill.
K-9 Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Really? Did you catch Pennington and the Dolphins two minute drill last night? Pennington has the highest completion percentage in the league but can't throw the deep ball when his team needs it. Not that it matters, but there was no deep ball to be had against the Colts' defense at that point. It was simply taken away. GO BILLS!!!
PDaDdy Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 They are your quotes that are all over the place. That's the point. Can you explain why in one post you say; "I've never moved my marker one bit." Easy! This was in response to an assertion that I was now changing the subject to be about arm strength and away from effectiveness. An assertion that my marker was Jamarcus Russell and Jay Cutler for acceptable or big arm strength. And in another say: "When I see a scouting report saying Trent has a big time NFL arm ...I'LL BELIEVE YOU!!!" Yes I have yet to see these IN SEASON...scouting reports. On this I should have been more specific. We all know that pre-draft scouting reports are speculation at best. We just need to look as far as Tom Brady the poster boy for useless pre-draft scouting reports. Then after seeing two scouting reports you say; "I'll trust what I see on game day and what people say about him now that he is in the NFL over predraft reports." Again consistent with my desire to see current scouting reports that are relevant to the player he is now not what people speculated about before the draft. Then you say; "I've never wavered from this. YOU tried to take my point elsewhere!" When I bring up a point about Trent's arm strength the retort was to discuss his effectiveness, bring up other successful QBs with weak arms and assert that I was making over the top comparison to the elite of the elite arms in the NFL like Cutler and Russell. Please don't do anything other than explain these opposing thoughts, thanks. There were excerpts from all over the place without the original post I was responding too. Quoting me out of context created some confusion for me. In context there was room for interpretation I suppose. Hope that clears it up for you.
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