Mike Martz giving props to Edwards

[PDaDdy]

There is NO question about TE's arm strength.

 

WRONG... If people pose the question based on in game observations...there is one.

 

The ONLY people who've questioned it are the fans. Mostly, I believe, because of the comparisons to JP. Well, there are only TWO, count 'em, TWO QBs that I can think of that currently have Losman arm strength in the NFL: Cutler and Russell. There may be others but I'll let the experts rate them. My point is JP arm strenth is RARE.

 

True...but he is not in the upper half of arm strength in the NFL imho.

 

To those fans who MUST question Edwards' arm strength, why have SO many teams sought to take Evans out of the offense with man-over coverage since 2007?

 

Perhaps because he was our only real deep threat prior to Terrell Owen's signing on a team with a QB that almost NEVER threw deep. Just sayin'

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

ABSOLUTELY!!!!

[PDaDdy]

So far this year he's thrown 4 TD's to 1 Int. and he has a 104.9 QB rating.

 

I love it so far!

 

All I was saying was is that taking a few more chances and coming up with a few more TDs is ok even if it means a few more interceptions. I guess I like gunslingers a little bit. As we all know Farve has the NFL record for TDs but also interceptions. He's done pretty well.

 

Imagine a modest stat line like this for Trent if he gambled a little bit more, 7 Tds 3 int. 21 more points on the board and 2 more turnovers which may or may not lead to any points. I could live with that. It's generally considered bad QB play but the really good gun slingers seem to turn that almost sack into a completion or a miracle TD. Perhaps it could mean even fewer sacks by throwing the ball up there and letting his WRs make a play.

 

Pure speculation of course, but just sayin'.

[K-9]

WRONG... If people pose the question based on in game observations...there is one.

 

 

 

True...but he is not in the upper half of arm strength in the NFL imho.

 

 

 

Perhaps because he was our only real deep threat on a team with a QB that almost NEVER threw deep. Just sayin'

 

 

ABSOLUTELY!!!!

 

Not wrong. If people are posing this question based on game observations then I ask why don't the scouts and player personnel directors agree? These same people are disecting and questioning things that just aren't legitimate. The TD PASS to Evans for example. "Oh, it was a bit underthrown. He just doesn't have the arm to get it there." Ridiculous.

 

Again, if TE can't throw the deep ball, why would a DC devote the resources to making sure he can't hurt them with it? Makes no sense. If Belichick*, for example, is willing to devote taking BOTH deep threats away for an entire game it's NOT because he doesn't think Edwards can get the ball over the top. Same with every DC we face.

 

Back on point. The ONLY people who question TE's arm strength are the fans. Period. When I see a scouting report from an NFL personnel director that says so, I"ll agree. I was able to see a tape of his pro day workout at Stanford and the scouts were raving about his arm. He's got PLENTY of velocitiy to make all the throws. The most important being the long out from the far hash. Coupled with his above average release and accuracy, his arm is more than adequate. The ball gets there on time.

 

It's just not relevant whether or not he's in the upper or lower half in the league in terms of arm strength. Russell has the "stongest" arm in the league. So what? This BB amazes me sometimes with the amount of scrutiny every little throw gets. Not you specifically, but in general.

 

Nobody has EVER seen ANY QB throw the long ball perfectly EVERY time. Some are slightly under thrown, some slightyly over thrown, some right on the money. That's the nature of the beast. I don't understand why we would expect our QB to be any different than another.

 

I'm already dreading when the bad weather games arrive. The usual crowd will go apoplectic around here.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[kota]

Just watch this.

 

 

I have never heard any legit NFL scout, coach, analyst say anything negative about Trent's Arm Strength. IMO some of Trent's long throws sail on him. They get to high and lose their strength. I found it interesting that the commentators yesterday mentioned that they thought he threw differently to Lee. Lee Evans is stupid fast. Trent knows this and over does it on his throws at times. That's my opinion anyway. It's like when you try to hit a Drive in golf. if you go throw to hard it shanks into the woods or you cut underneath the ball to much so it pops in the air.

 

Trent doesn't have a Byron Leftwich or JR's arm strength but he makes up for it with a very quick release. A quick Release is way more important if you ask me.

[Thurman#1]

What about the one Owens caught....?

 

 

 

It hit him in the chest and was almost able to be deflected by the defender. It was fine, of course, but I agree, an extra foot or two would have been even better. And Lee had to slow up quite a bit on his TD catch.

 

On the other hand, both were TDs, so you can't find too much fault.

[Thurman#1]

Back on point. The ONLY people who question TE's arm strength are the fans. Period. When I see a scouting report from an NFL personnel director that says so, I"ll agree.

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

Oh, you're the guy who's on the "NFL personnel director" mailing list? 'Cause you know, most fans never see a scouting report from an NFL personnel director. You know, they're usually top secret. But since you're on the list, I'm sure you'll let us know when the first one comes in with a comment on Trent's arm strength.

[Fingon]

Oh, you're the guy who's on the "NFL personnel director" mailing list? 'Cause you know, most fans never see a scouting report from an NFL personnel director. You know, they're usually top secret. But since you're on the list, I'm sure you'll let us know when the first one comes in with a comment on Trent's arm strength.

Pro-scouts talk about players all the time. It's usually anonymously, but they do it.

[PDaDdy]

Not wrong. If people are posing this question based on game observations then I ask why don't the scouts and player personnel directors agree? These same people are disecting and questioning things that just aren't legitimate. The TD PASS to Evans for example. "Oh, it was a bit underthrown. He just doesn't have the arm to get it there." Ridiculous.

 

How do you explain always under throwing the WR?

 

Again, if TE can't throw the deep ball, why would a DC devote the resources to making sure he can't hurt them with it? Makes no sense. If Belichick*, for example, is willing to devote taking BOTH deep threats away for an entire game it's NOT because he doesn't think Edwards can get the ball over the top. Same with every DC we face.

 

He can throw a deep ball if he bounces it off the stratosphere and it takes forever to get there. It is nit picking but have we seen Trent hit the deep post pattern? Hitting guys deep down the middle of the field who have a safety over the top requires velocity on the ball not a perfectly timed arcing pass.

 

Back on point. The ONLY people who question TE's arm strength are the fans. Period. When I see a scouting report from an NFL personnel director that says so, I"ll agree. I was able to see a tape of his pro day workout at Stanford and the scouts were raving about his arm. He's got PLENTY of velocitiy to make all the throws. The most important being the long out from the far hash. Coupled with his above average release and accuracy, his arm is more than adequate. The ball gets there on time.

 

Again nit picking, but did you watch the same game? Trent threw a great arcing ball to TO that he dropped. The other pass to Owens and the TWO passes to Evans were NOT on time. His WR made good plays. I know he can't be perfect every pass but lets be honest about those passes.

 

It's just not relevant whether or not he's in the upper or lower half in the league in terms of arm strength. Russell has the "stongest" arm in the league. So what? This BB amazes me sometimes with the amount of scrutiny every little throw gets. Not you specifically, but in general.

 

Uh...tell that to every NFL scout and GM in the league that highly value big arm QBs but will make exceptions for guys that can still be effective without an arm in the top half of the league.

 

I'm already dreading when the bad weather games arrive. The usual crowd will go apoplectic around here.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Why is that? Because you know his arm strength may become more of an issue in inclement weather with those swirling winds at the Ralph?

 

When I see a scouting report saying Trent has a big time NFL arm ...I'LL BELIEVE YOU!!! Funny how two people can see the same thing and come up with vastly different conclusions. I guess I missed the praise for Edwards big arm and deep threat capability during every single game of his I've seen.

 

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence but I assume you know the difference between what are commonly called a "laser" pass and a "rainbow"? I'm not saying Trent can't heave a rainbow up there and get the ball 40 yards in the air. He can do that. I'm sure you have an understanding of trajectory and velocity and that it takes longer for a rainbow to reach its destination. This also gives CBs and Ss time to reach their destination and break up the play.

 

This is where people respond with the timing argument. Yes if Trent makes up his mind early enough and trusts his WR will beat the defender to the spot he can be just as effective as a guy with a big time NFL arm. Trent is still working on this. I get your argument but please don't try to tell me he has a strong arm.

 

Again, show me the scouting reports!

[PDaDdy]

Just watch this.

 

 

I have never heard any legit NFL scout, coach, analyst say anything negative about Trent's Arm Strength. IMO some of Trent's long throws sail on him. They get to high and lose their strength. I found it interesting that the commentators yesterday mentioned that they thought he threw differently to Lee. Lee Evans is stupid fast. Trent knows this and over does it on his throws at times. That's my opinion anyway. It's like when you try to hit a Drive in golf. if you go throw to hard it shanks into the woods or you cut underneath the ball to much so it pops in the air.

 

Trent doesn't have a Byron Leftwich or JR's arm strength but he makes up for it with a very quick release. A quick Release is way more important if you ask me.

 

Quite the opposite. I think he under does it. I don't recall Lee Evans getting over thrown but I do recall seeing him get under thrown. Did I miss something?

[K-9]

Oh, you're the guy who's on the "NFL personnel director" mailing list? 'Cause you know, most fans never see a scouting report from an NFL personnel director. You know, they're usually top secret. But since you're on the list, I'm sure you'll let us know when the first one comes in with a comment on Trent's arm strength.

 

No, there is no mailing list. I get my info word of mouth, like most people. Nice try, but you can't bait me here. Your uninformed condescending tone not withstanding.

 

Don't care about your opinion on the matter. The question of TE's arm strength is moot to anyone but fans who have to find something to nitpick. That doesn't mean he won't mis-time throws, underthrow, or overthrow. It doesn't mean he won't throw off-balance or otherwise not always have the best mechanics at times. And it obviously doesn't mean he'll always have the confidence to throw the ball (often times that lack of confidence results in weak throws, BTW). Gee, I've just described EVERY friggen QB that ever played the game.

 

Answer the question (it's the same one I've asked to a couple people on the "mailing list"). If opposing teams thought TE's arm strength was not sufficient, would defenses waste valuable resources to take away a perceived non-threat?

 

Do you have ANY idea what an extra defender means to a defense?

 

Player personnel people need to see ONE throw made with accuracy and delivered on time when they evaluate whether a QB has arm enough to get the job done: the long out from the far hash. Pretty simple. It's got to be on the proverbial frozen rope for obvious reasons. And it's been like this for as long as I can recall. TE passes the test with flying colors.

 

My suggestion is, in the absence of qualified people to ask, get some books about the QB position. Read what scouts and coaches have said about it over the years. Find out what they value most in QBs.

 

Being able to throw a ball 75 yards in the air is nice and all but it ain't the trait most valued. Not by a long shot (no pun intended).

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Bill from NYC]

Martz actually went on and on about the first one thrown. He said it was about as perfect a pass as possible because it kept the receiver in bounds offered the defensive player no chance to make a play. I think I'll trust him when it comes to evaluating passes given his track record ...

 

Thank you for this!

 

At some point, more people will understand that a pass can be a "good" pass without going 60 yards from scrimage and dropping out of the sky ala Drew Bledsoe. Trent doesn't have this kind of arm and doesn't need it.

We have seen many qbs with a "cannon" who weren't that good, except for an occasional freak throw.

Give me a qb who can win. Hopefully Trent is that guy and I like what I see.

[Bill from NYC]

It hit him in the chest and was almost able to be deflected by the defender. It was fine, of course, but I agree, an extra foot or two would have been even better. And Lee had to slow up quite a bit on his TD catch.

 

On the other hand, both were TDs, so you can't find too much fault.

 

You do realize that you are critiquing a TD pass that by your own words "hit him in the chest," right?

[Kelly the Dog]

No, there is no mailing list. I get my info word of mouth, like most people. Nice try, but you can't bait me here. Your uninformed condescending tone not withstanding.

 

Don't care about your opinion on the matter. The question of TE's arm strength is moot to anyone but fans who have to find something to nitpick. That doesn't mean he won't mis-time throws, underthrow, or overthrow. It doesn't mean he won't throw off-balance or otherwise not always have the best mechanics at times. And it obviously doesn't mean he'll always have the confidence to throw the ball (often times that lack of confidence results in weak throws, BTW). Gee, I've just described EVERY friggen QB that ever played the game.

 

Answer the question (it's the same one I've asked to a couple people on the "mailing list"). If opposing teams thought TE's arm strength was not sufficient, would defenses waste valuable resources to take away a perceived non-threat?

 

Do you have ANY idea what an extra defender means to a defense?

 

Player personnel people need to see ONE throw made with accuracy and delivered on time when they evaluate whether a QB has arm enough to get the job done: the long out from the far hash. Pretty simple. It's got to be on the proverbial frozen rope for obvious reasons. And it's been like this for as long as I can recall. TE passes the test with flying colors.

 

My suggestion is, in the absence of qualified people to ask, get some books about the QB position. Read what scouts and coaches have said about it over the years. Find out what they value most in QBs.

 

Being able to throw a ball 75 yards in the air is nice and all but it ain't the trait most valued. Not by a long shot (no pun intended).

 

GO BILLS!!!

There were some posters here who questioned his arm strength, sure. And he surely has a legitimate NFL arm like you said. It's not overly strong, and it won't wow anyone, but "he can make all the throws" as they say.

 

But there is a huge difference between arm strength, and ability to go deep or stretch the field, and that, more than arm strength was what a lot of posters including myself were concerned about. Sometimes when people said he can't throw long it had nothing to do with arm strength, and it was legitimate criticism because he simply didn't do it well. In his first couple years, he really only threw a very few good deep balls.

 

Granted, there were numerous factors for this. A lot was coaching, a lot was play-calling, WRs getting open, pass rush, and his tendency to want to get the ball out of his hands quickly to avoid a sack (whether that was him or his coaching or more likely both is arguable). But he just didn't show up and the proof of that was how teams defended us. They dared us to get the ball downfield and we just didn't do it. Numerous times in the last couple years I wanted Trent to just throw the ball as far as he could, even counting on an incompletion just so there was a THREAT that we would stretch the field. Weeks went by when we wouldn't attempt one pass more than 20-25 yards downfield.

 

Early in his career, Trent was also woefully short on a lot of his deep balls. And he often lofted them a little too much. It was just a fact, with real evidence. That had nothing to do with arm strength IMO but it had a lot to do with his ability to throw deep. He just wasn't all that good at it. I didn't question his arm strength but he did need to prove to me that he could consistently go deep. Last week went a long way. He threw several nice balls down the field. The TD to Evans was a great pass even if it didn't hit Lee in perfect stride. He got it up in the air and allowed his WR to run under it and get it in the endzone without a defender being able to get there in time and it was a touchdown. That's a great throw in my book, not to mention that he had the balls to check off to a bomb on third and one at the LOS.

 

Trent has looked very good to me, and a lot different than in years past. I attribute it a lot to Owens and AVP and the ability of the line to open holes in the run game so the defense has been kept off balance but Trent has done everything I wanted to see in him, including getting the ball downfield.

[Conch]

The Bucs defense has given up 900+ yards in two weeks. We need to evaluate TE after he plays a tough defense. Right now the Jets will shut us completely down.

 

TE was afraid to throw deep in NE. He still doesn't have the wr's involved throughout the game. TO was about to blow until his 4th quarter TD. No one said TE couldn't throw deep, everyone said he won't throw deep. Martz always set up his running game with the pass. We should adapt some of that strategy.

[K-9]

How do you explain always under throwing the WR?

 

 

 

He can throw a deep ball if he bounces it off the stratosphere and it takes forever to get there. It is nit picking but have we seen Trent hit the deep post pattern? Hitting guys deep down the middle of the field who have a safety over the top requires velocity on the ball not a perfectly timed arcing pass.

 

 

 

Again nit picking, but did you watch the same game? Trent threw a great arcing ball to TO that he dropped. The other pass to Owens and the TWO passes to Evans were NOT on time. His WR made good plays. I know he can't be perfect every pass but lets be honest about those passes.

 

 

 

Uh...tell that to every NFL scout and GM in the league that highly value big arm QBs but will make exceptions for guys that can still be effective without an arm in the top half of the league.

 

 

 

Why is that? Because you know his arm strength may become more of an issue in inclement weather with those swirling winds at the Ralph?

 

When I see a scouting report saying Trent has a big time NFL arm ...I'LL BELIEVE YOU!!! Funny how two people can see the same thing and come up with vastly different conclusions. I guess I missed the praise for Edwards big arm and deep threat capability during every single game of his I've seen.

 

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence but I assume you know the difference between what are commonly called a "laser" pass and a "rainbow"? I'm not saying Trent can't heave a rainbow up there and get the ball 40 yards in the air. He can do that. I'm sure you have an understanding of trajectory and velocity and that it takes longer for a rainbow to reach its destination. This also gives CBs and Ss time to reach their destination and break up the play.

 

This is where people respond with the timing argument. Yes if Trent makes up his mind early enough and trusts his WR will beat the defender to the spot he can be just as effective as a guy with a big time NFL arm. Trent is still working on this. I get your argument but please don't try to tell me he has a strong arm.

 

Again, show me the scouting reports!

 

So now the question becomes "does Trent have a big time NFL arm?" I, nor anyone else I've spoken to about him, would ever accuse him of having a Russell-like or JP-like "cannon." Those types are so rare it's not even worth going into. But you've moved the markers on the question a bit here.

 

The question is and always has been, does he have the arm strength necessary to play in the NFL? The answer is yes. For reasons I've already explained.

 

You're not going to see a privileged scouting report from an NFL team and I won't ask you to just take my word for it either. I'll just say I'm quite comfortable with the opinions of a few people that are paid to make assessments based on criteria gathered from sources other than what's on TV.

 

In the absense of that information, you may want to take the time to look at pre-draft scouting reports on Edwards. Feel free to take them with grain of salt but they are usually written by people with experience and/or access to scouts' feedback.

 

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile...prospect_id=468

 

http://www.warroomreport.com/draft/rankings/qb/edwards.htm

 

There are others but suffice it to say I don't see where anyone questions his arm strength.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[nucci]

The one to Evans was certainly underthrown. I could give a crepe because it went for a TD, but we can't put on the blinders and pretend they were perfect passes. It's constructive criticism. I like what I have seen out of Trent over the past two weeks, especially with the increased chances he took down the field. I agree with a later poster that the timing will improve. Like I said, I am just happy to see Edwards throwing deep. It may not be a question of arm strength. It's timing, confidence, ... I think someone eluded that Schonert would put pressure on Edwards to be perfect. Van Pelt says take the chances. Go AVP!

Passes do not have to be perfect and if that is what you are expecting, prepare to be disappointed. As long as they are completed we should be happy.

[PDaDdy]

Answer the question (it's the same one I've asked to a couple people on the "mailing list"). If opposing teams thought TE's arm strength was not sufficient, would defenses waste valuable resources to take away a perceived non-threat?

 

You DO realize that Lee doesn't only run go routes right?

 

Do do also realize that a rainbow can still beat a defense deep if the WR is wide open right?

 

 

Our point is he doesn't have a strong arm!

[PDaDdy]

So now the question becomes "does Trent have a big time NFL arm?" I, nor anyone else I've spoken to about him, would ever accuse him of having a Russell-like or JP-like "cannon." Those types are so rare it's not even worth going into. But you've moved the markers on the question a bit here.

 

The question is and always has been, does he have the arm strength necessary to play in the NFL? The answer is yes. For reasons I've already explained.

 

You're not going to see a privileged scouting report from an NFL team and I won't ask you to just take my word for it either. I'll just say I'm quite comfortable with the opinions of a few people that are paid to make assessments based on criteria gathered from sources other than what's on TV.

 

In the absense of that information, you may want to take the time to look at pre-draft scouting reports on Edwards. Feel free to take them with grain of salt but they are usually written by people with experience and/or access to scouts' feedback.

 

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile...prospect_id=468

 

http://www.warroomreport.com/draft/rankings/qb/edwards.htm

 

There are others but suffice it to say I don't see where anyone questions his arm strength.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

I've never moved my marker one bit. I have said from the start Trent doesn't have a big arm. Yes Cutler and Russell are rare. I'M saying he doesn't have an arm as strong as Jason Campbell, Travaris Jackson, Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Tom Brady, etc. Brady doesn't have a huge arm by the way either but he is obviously effective.

 

I'll trust what I see on game day and what people say about him now that he is in the NFL over predraft reports. When I make an assessment of Trent not having a big time arm your retort is to compare him to the elite of the elite and argue his effectiveness. You're defending a point I am not attacking.

 

So now the question becomes "does Trent have a big time NFL arm?"

 

It's takin' you a while to realize it but this is what I was saying from the start. I've never wavered from this. YOU tried to take my point elsewhere!

 

 

A WR doesn't have to have 4.3 speed in today's game to be successful but it sure as hell don't hurt. They just have to play the game differently than a guy with more speed. They do however lack the dimension of being able to be successful using speed. Edwards lacks the dimension of being able to beat you ALSO with arm strength that many other QBs possess.

[Jerry Jabber]

You DO realize that Lee doesn't only run go routes right?

 

Do do also realize that a rainbow can still beat a defense deep if the WR is wide open right?

 

 

Our point is he doesn't have a strong arm!

 

Yeah, well Joe Montana didn't have a strong arm either and look how well he did.

[PDaDdy]

Yeah, well Joe Montana didn't have a strong arm either and look how well he did.

 

NEVER said you can't be effective with an average to weak arm. Man, people just don't get it.