Endzone Animal Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 I give up... clearly this is over your head.
DELLAPELLE JOHN Posted September 22, 2009 Author Posted September 22, 2009 I give up... clearly this is over your head. dude relax, no need to insult, lets start over....ok so if something cant be verified by our normal day to day rationality then why believe it...??
Endzone Animal Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 "Why" we believe in anything is a subjective matter. You choose to believe that nothing can exist beyond the natural laws of science. Most believe otherwise. Either way, both are making a rational choice. Irrational belief comes when one side cannot concede the other has a point. I may believe that God exists, but could still understand why someone would believe otherwise. Likewise, someone rational who doubts that God exists could still understand why someone would believe He does. The irrational cannot understand how anyone can think or believe differently from themselves.
DELLAPELLE JOHN Posted September 22, 2009 Author Posted September 22, 2009 "Why" we believe in anything is a subjective matter. You choose to believe that nothing can exist beyond the natural laws of science. Most believe otherwise. Either way, both are making a rational choice. Irrational belief comes when one side cannot concede the other has a point. I may believe that God exists, but could still understand why someone would believe otherwise. Likewise, someone rational who doubts that God exists could still understand why someone would believe He does. The irrational cannot understand how anyone can think or believe differently from themselves. when u say god, what do u mean?
DELLAPELLE JOHN Posted September 22, 2009 Author Posted September 22, 2009 epistemology plays a part here, we must come to a conclusion that something is true or not because, fill in the blank... if not then how do we establish truth... btw im not so much against a higher power... of course something started all this, but u and i know thats not what we are talking about. we are talking about specific religious claims. ie jews are promised land from god dont look now but we might have a nuclear exchange if we dont establish what is true and what is not.... there is a great distance from there might be a higher power to kill all homosexuals or dont let them marry.... get my point, we are talking about UNJUSTIFIED belief...
DELLAPELLE JOHN Posted September 22, 2009 Author Posted September 22, 2009 should we continue to respect delusion, dogma, unjustified belief... we dont do this in medicine why do we do it when it comes to religion...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 "Why" we believe in anything is a subjective matter. You choose to believe that nothing can exist beyond the natural laws of science. Most believe otherwise. Either way, both are making a rational choice. Irrational belief comes when one side cannot concede the other has a point. I may believe that God exists, but could still understand why someone would believe otherwise. Likewise, someone rational who doubts that God exists could still understand why someone would believe He does. The irrational cannot understand how anyone can think or believe differently from themselves. Or as some would describe things exist that science has yet to be able to describe. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that there are many things that science has yet to be able to describe or fully understand... or to coin a phrase not supernatural but superscience.
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 epistemology plays a part here, we must come to a conclusion that something is true or not because, fill in the blank... if not then how do we establish truth... btw im not so much against a higher power... of course something started all this, but u and i know thats not what we are talking about. we are talking about specific religious claims. ie jews are promised land from god dont look now but we might have a nuclear exchange if we dont establish what is true and what is not.... there is a great distance from there might be a higher power to kill all homosexuals or dont let them marry.... get my point, we are talking about UNJUSTIFIED belief... Ah, and there is the flaw in your understanding of being, or lack of understanding. Your sentence... "you "must" come to a conclusion" asks for an assumption, because it has yet to be fully described. Assumptions are made because of a lack of knowledge and therefore require a certain amount of faith that they are correct. Truth or evidence is only that by definition is true. Limited by of our perception and communication of our perceptions to others, therefore, things are only true by definition. Since we cannot prove that our perceptions are correct because the link between the senses to the brain and sole cannot fully be described... i.e., "the conscious mind", by science, or link to the physical world. Things otherwise are either true by definition or a man made utilitarian construct that cannot be proven... Science because of this ends up in an infinite regression argument and religion because of faith ends up in circular reasoning. Neither can be proven incorrect nor true because a direct link between the brain and the conscious mind has yet to be made for certain. Therefore, as a practicality we all rely on assumptions and faith, otherwise this whole existence thing could be a farce and not really any different the idea behind the matrix and we cannot disprove it because of the limits of our own perceptions. Take a class in Philosophy of Evidence sometime, it can mess with your head.
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 what part did u not understand respectfully? ie lets say i have to make a decision...like should i walk in traffic... well it might hurt (suffering) and i might burden other people (suffering) so i wont walk in traffic (happiness) Wow! Everything to you must be black and white... No shades of gray? Again... No. Try again until YOU understand it.
Endzone Animal Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 should we continue to respect delusion, dogma, unjustified belief... we dont do this in medicine why do we do it when it comes to religion... You are the one with totalitarian dogma and delusion in this conversation. I see your outlook as absolutist, arrogant, mindless, militant and zealous. Sorry, but that's how I see it - it's my "belief".
ieatcrayonz Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 epistemology plays a part here, we must come to a conclusion that something is true or not because, fill in the blank... if not then how do we establish truth... My cousin Brenda got an epistomology when she was giving birth. It definitely sounds like it hurt and I know you were talking about pain but I think saying epistomologies play a part is a stretch. And the don't fill in blanks, they create blanks.
Gene Frenkle Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Because there is MOSTLY a good moral message behind most religion. Moral messages are hard to explain scientifically. How do you scientifically teach people to have good social conscience? Look at most of the dolts here that preach science is king... They wouldn't know what it is to be a compassionate human being even if that idea bit them on the ass. IMO, science alone leads people to the "it is all only about me" beliefs. That is such a bunch of BS. We are all hard-wired to be moral through years and years of natural selection. Your religious beliefs (which were created by people) are a direct result of that hard-wiring of right and wrong. There are plenty of studies that prove a common set of human morals that transcend geography, race, religion and just any other categorization you can think of. If religion equals morality, why is it that the REALLY religious people always seem to be the ones committing the most heinous of heinous crimes?
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 That is such a bunch of BS. We are all hard-wired to be moral through years and years of natural selection. Your religious beliefs (which were created by people) are a direct result of that hard-wiring of right and wrong. There are plenty of studies that prove a common set of human morals that transcend geography, race, religion and just any other categorization you can think of. If religion equals morality, why is it that the REALLY religious people always seem to be the ones committing the most heinous of heinous crimes? Another absolutists assumption and a qualification of that assumption "always", "seem to be"
Gene Frenkle Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 The irrational cannot understand how anyone can think or believe differently from themselves. You don't know what rational means, do you.
Gene Frenkle Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Manson was a liberal. Did he molest alter boys?
ieatcrayonz Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Did he molest alter boys? You have two verbs in a row there.
Endzone Animal Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 If religion atheism equals morality, why is it that the REALLY religious atheist people always seem to be the ones committing the most heinous of heinous crimes? Because totalitarian absolutists are always the ones who commit the most heinous crimes.
ieatcrayonz Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 I think he just forgot the slash. You know......molest/alter. I wonder if any of them ever gave the poor boys epistomologies.
Gene Frenkle Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Because totalitarian absolutists are always the ones who commit the most heinous crimes. You have no clue what you're talking about. Please at least try to back up your nonsense instead of just inverting and regurgitating the statements of others like a five year old. .......... The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: "Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly skeptical world. In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece Large-scale surveys show dramatic declines in religiosity in favor of secularization in the developed democracies. Popular acceptance of evolutionary science correlates negatively with levels of religiosity, and the United States is the only prosperous nation where the majority absolutely believes in a creator and evolutionary science is unpopular. Abundant data is available on rates of societal dysfunction and health in the first world. Cross-national comparisons of highly differing rates of religiosity and societal conditions form a mass epidemiological experiment that can be used to test whether high rates of belief in and worship of a creator are necessary for high levels of social health. Data correlations show that in almost all regards the highly secular democracies consistently enjoy low rates of societal dysfunction, while pro-religious and anti-evolution America performs poorly. There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms. http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html Churches are being advised to protect congregations against pedophiles and rapists in their midst as The Times uncovers figures showing a clear link between religion and sex crime. The Home Office has disclosed statistics for the first time, showing the prison population according to their faith and type of offense committed. Two trends emerge: a strong tendency for prisoners who declare a religious faith to be serving time for sexual offenses; and a large proportion of fraudsters from oriental faiths. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article649517.ece
DC Tom Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Churches are being advised to protect congregations against pedophiles and rapists in their midst as The Times uncovers figures showing a clear link between religion and sex crime. The Home Office has disclosed statistics for the first time, showing the prison population according to their faith and type of offense committed. Two trends emerge: a strong tendency for prisoners who declare a religious faith to be serving time for sexual offenses; and a large proportion of fraudsters from oriental faiths. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article649517.ece Of course, it's a study about criminals, not religions.
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