religion

[Magox]

I believe it's a bit foolish to believe that random events and explosions through out the universe caused a interrelated symbiotic relationship between life and matter.

 

I was taught to believe in God as a child because if I didn't believe in him than I would go to hell. That was what I was taught, so in order to be spared eternal torture, I assumed it was better to just say I believed in "God".

 

However, I really wasn't 100% sure internally, that there was a God, all though aloud he existed indubitably. It wasn't until I was about 19, on a beautiful North Carolina Sunday, looking up at the tree's, hearing the birds chirp and wind blow through the leaves, that I had a "moment". A moment of clarity, internally, that there is no way that random events through out the universe or in this case earth that could coordinate such a synergetic and harmonious occurrence of life and matter coming together at one time. At that moment, I was convinced more than ever that there really is a higher form of energy above or through out me that is providing this form of reciprocity.

 

We are all just people, and people are people. There are "good" and "bad" people everywhere in all walks of life. We just use our heritage, patriotism or religion to cloak us from what we really are. So Gene, I would venture to guess that the hypocrisy from many "bad" individuals that hid their true selves through religion turned you off one way or another regarding faith (not that you would admit it). That usually is what I have found from people who do not believe in God, they use the "headline" mishaps from the hypocrits that misuse religion for their benefit to either exploit people or hide behind their actions.

 

Religion and Faith do serve a purposeful tool, it provides direction to people who lack it, maybe you don't as others don't as well, but it does help out many others. Is it an absolute answer to living a "divine" life? Absolutely not! But does it help more people than it does harm, the answer is un equivocally yes.

[ieatcrayonz]

Should religion be allowed to exist?

To me the answer is no.

All religions inevitably cause violence.

Lean on them and you becaome weak.

If we got rid of religion, things would be better.

Never again would we have to worry about mass graves if we'd just relent to atheist rule.

[Gene Frenkle]

Dark matter has never been directly observed.

It has been DIRECTLY gravitationally observed and even mapped.

[Gene Frenkle]

I believe it's a bit foolish to believe that random events and explosions through out the universe caused a interrelated symbiotic relationship between life and matter.

 

I was taught to believe in God as a child because if I didn't believe in him than I would go to hell. That was what I was taught, so in order to be spared eternal torture, I assumed it was better to just say I believed in "God".

 

However, I really wasn't 100% sure internally, that there was a God, all though aloud he existed indubitably. It wasn't until I was about 19, on a beautiful North Carolina Sunday, looking up at the tree's, hearing the birds chirp and wind blow through the leaves, that I had a "moment". A moment of clarity, internally, that there is no way that random events through out the universe or in this case earth that could coordinate such a synergetic and harmonious occurrence of life and matter coming together at one time. At that moment, I was convinced more than ever that there really is a higher form of energy above or through out me that is providing this form of reciprocity.

 

We are all just people, and people are people. There are "good" and "bad" people everywhere in all walks of life. We just use our heritage, patriotism or religion to cloak us from what we really are. So Gene, I would venture to guess that the hypocrisy from many "bad" individuals that hid their true selves through religion turned you off one way or another regarding faith (not that you would admit it). That usually is what I have found from people who do not believe in God, they use the "headline" mishaps from the hypocrits that misuse religion for their benefit to either exploit people or hide behind their actions.

 

Religion and Faith do serve a purposeful tool, it provides direction to people who lack it, maybe you don't as others don't as well, but it does help out many others. Is it an absolute answer to living a "divine" life? Absolutely not! But does it help more people than it does harm, the answer is un equivocally yes.

That's certainly a nice sentiment, but if this Universe weren't as it is, we wouldn't be here to think these nice thoughts.

 

Let's assume for a moment that there are infinite universes with infinite variations of the laws of physics. An infinite number would end up exactly as this one with an infinite number of "yous" telling an infinite number of "mes" how wonederful the Universe is and how it just couldn't possibly have happened by chance.

 

I'm not even invoking magical thinking in this. It's simply a possible variation of M-Theory (M for Multiverse).

[DC Tom]

I believe it's a bit foolish to believe that random events and explosions through out the universe caused a interrelated symbiotic relationship between life and matter.

 

I don't see why not. The idea that the universe isn't an accident because it supports our existence presumes that our existence is by some sort of intent and not an accident.

 

I fully support and respect your belief that it's not an accident...but calling a belief in the "accidental" universe "foolish" is the same unsupported value judgement that "JOHN DELLAPINHEAD" was making against religion. Both positions - the "accidental" or "designed" universe are based strictly on unsupported belief, and are only "foolish" in as much as their respective proponents think them concrete facts.

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

I'm fine with agnostic (though I prefer "empiricist", as it more conclusively distinguishes between that which can and cannot be known). "Athiest" I'd reject, as it's most literally translated as "without God", which does not accurately describe my view on the subject, which is not a disbelief in God as much as recognition of my own inability to empirically "know" God (which is literally "agnostic" - "a" = not, "gnostos" = knowable, in Attic Greek. And I didn't even have to look it up.)

 

And really, when you think of that viewpoint...and myself...it's surprisingly humble of me.

Great book on the subject, a who done it by Colson Whitehead called "The Intuitionist," about an murder on an elevator and the debate between empiricism and intuition.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

That's certainly a nice sentiment, but if this Universe weren't as it is, we wouldn't be here to think these nice thoughts.

 

Let's assume for a moment that there are infinite universes with infinite variations of the laws of physics. An infinite number would end up exactly as this one with an infinite number of "yous" telling an infinite number of "mes" how wonederful the Universe is and how it just couldn't possibly have happened by chance.

 

I'm not even invoking magical thinking in this. It's simply a possible variation of M-Theory (M for Multiverse).

 

And from where did the multiverse originate?

[DC Tom]

That's certainly a nice sentiment, but if this Universe weren't as it is, we wouldn't be here to think these nice thoughts.

 

Let's assume for a moment that there are infinite universes with infinite variations of the laws of physics. An infinite number would end up exactly as this one with an infinite number of "yous" telling an infinite number of "mes" how wonederful the Universe is and how it just couldn't possibly have happened by chance.

 

I'm not even invoking magical thinking in this. It's simply a possible variation of M-Theory (M for Multiverse).

 

Actually...you're wrong. (I was going to say "It's not", but that was too vague; you messed up several points in the above).

 

The universe we live in is oddly suitable for life-as-we-know-it (hereafter referred to simply as "life"). Variations of a few percent either way of one of a few physical constants (gravitational constant, "dressed" charge and mass of an electron, vacuum permeability of light, Planck's constant), and life doesn't exist. No one knows how or why those constants were set up the way they were (nor is anyone likely to know for the forseeable future, if ever - theoretically, you'd need to recreate the conditions of the Big Bang to discover this, which is a literal impossibility). There is a theory, that our universe is just one of many that may exist (and there's actually an experiment being conducted to test that theory, amazingly), and each may have different physical constants...meaning most would be devoid of life.

 

Which is the key point you're getting at: life can only exist in universes where the conditions of the universe support life. That a universe be required to be designed to support life is arguably a fallacy, since in universes that don't no one's around wondering why they are how they are. It's called the strong anthropic principle - the universe is how it is, because if it weren't we wouldn't be and hence couldn't observe how it is. Generally not considered a strong argument, although I actually prefer it.

 

Your Multiverse idea, on the other hand...completely different principle, related to the collapse of quantum wave functions.

[DC Tom]

And from where did the multiverse originate?

 

Seacaucus, NJ. Sometime in the summer of 1919.

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

So much for theory of evidence, now we are on to theory of creation, though hard to separate the two. My head hurts.

[DC Tom]

So much for theory of evidence, now we are on to theory of creation, though hard to separate the two. My head hurts.

 

Bound to happen eventually. Ever since "creationism" became "intelligent design", the evolution vs. creation debate has fundamentally been one of evidence and the scientific method.

 

 

Not that there's much of a debate involved, of course...

[Ramius]

It has been DIRECTLY gravitationally observed and even mapped.

 

Yet the fact remains that dark matter itself has never been directly observed. Its effects yes, itself, no.

 

(And yes, i am a believer in both dark matter and God)

[DC Tom]

Yet the fact remains that dark matter itself has never been directly observed. Its effects yes, itself, no.

 

In all honesty, neither have dinosaurs.

 

If you REALLY want to pick nits, nothing is observed "directly", only through its interaction with other things. My explanation -

"dark matter is one of several possible explanations" - was better.

[Ramius]

In all honesty, neither have dinosaurs.

 

If you REALLY want to pick nits, nothing is observed "directly", only through its interaction with other things. My explanation -

"dark matter is one of several possible explanations" - was better.

 

Oh i know. But we're dealing with douchenozzle frenkle and potato head delapelle. And most of this **** is way to complicated to try and type over a message board.

[Magox]

That's certainly a nice sentiment

It's based upon that sentiment where my "faith" is derived from. It is impossible in my view to prove that God exists, hence the term "faith", after all belief that is not based on proof is actually called faith.

 

My whole point was, I didn't truly believe in it because I was told to, it was because it was a moment of realization that had occured in my life that enabled me to have "faith".

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

It's based upon that sentiment where my "faith" is derived from. It is impossible in my view to prove that God exists, hence the term "faith", after all belief that is not based on proof is actually called faith.

 

My whole point was, I didn't truly believe in it because I was told to, it was because it was a moment of realization that had occured in my life that enabled me to have "faith".

Exactly!

[Gene Frenkle]

And from where did the multiverse originate?

Ah, there it is. It doesn't matter to me personally because it's not a question I can ever know the answer to. There's more than enough after the moment of "creation" of our Universe to occupy me for many many lifetimes. If you want to relegate god to simply be "the thing that started the Big Bang", that's arguably a reasonable thing to think. I can live with that god, but I don't think that god has any concept of our day to day lives or cares what we do. We can probably never know.

 

Religion take it many steps further than that, unfortunately. Where does the rest of religion come from and why is it even in the conversation? My contention is that it comes from man. As an extension of that, ironically, it comes as a result of evolution which is a non-goal-oriented process which occurred over millions of years (or 6,000 for some). Everything about us, including our hard-wired need to believe in religion is a result of that process and our experiences and that's it. But that's enough for me. Many people need more than that (or at least think they do) and religion fills the void I guess.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Ah, there it is. It doesn't matter to me personally because it's not a question I can ever know the answer to. There's more than enough after the moment of "creation" of our Universe to occupy me for many many lifetimes. If you want to relegate god to simply be "the thing that started the Big Bang", that's arguably a reasonable thing to think. I can live with that god, but I don't think that god has any concept of our day to day lives or cares what we do. We can probably never know.

 

Religion take it many steps further than that, unfortunately. Where does the rest of religion come from and why is it even in the conversation? My contention is that it comes from man. As an extension of that, ironically, it comes as a result of evolution which is a non-goal-oriented process which occurred over millions of years (or 6,000 for some). Everything about us, including our hard-wired need to believe in religion is a result of that process and our experiences and that's it. But that's enough for me. Many people need more than that (or at least think they do) and religion fills the void I guess.

 

 

Religion is man's attempt to become closer to God instead of allowing God to become personally involved in his life. See, God is a God of both mercy and wrath. The God who is at the same time powerful enough to create all things is certainly powerful enough to know about and care about his creation, including man. It's not all that irrational. Faith is a powerful thing, religion is a perversion of faith.

[Gene Frenkle]

Actually...you're wrong. (I was going to say "It's not", but that was too vague; you messed up several points in the above).

 

The universe we live in is oddly suitable for life-as-we-know-it (hereafter referred to simply as "life"). Variations of a few percent either way of one of a few physical constants (gravitational constant, "dressed" charge and mass of an electron, vacuum permeability of light, Planck's constant), and life doesn't exist. No one knows how or why those constants were set up the way they were (nor is anyone likely to know for the forseeable future, if ever - theoretically, you'd need to recreate the conditions of the Big Bang to discover this, which is a literal impossibility). There is a theory, that our universe is just one of many that may exist (and there's actually an experiment being conducted to test that theory, amazingly), and each may have different physical constants...meaning most would be devoid of life.

 

Which is the key point you're getting at: life can only exist in universes where the conditions of the universe support life. That a universe be required to be designed to support life is arguably a fallacy, since in universes that don't no one's around wondering why they are how they are. It's called the strong anthropic principle - the universe is how it is, because if it weren't we wouldn't be and hence couldn't observe how it is. Generally not considered a strong argument, although I actually prefer it.

 

Your Multiverse idea, on the other hand...completely different principle, related to the collapse of quantum wave functions.

I was speaking of a multiverse of infinite universes. Such a thing would contain infinite universes that are suitable for life as well as infinite universes that are exactly like ours, down to the quantum level. Every possible configuration of strengths of Electromagnetism, Gravity and the Strong and Weak Nuclear Forces was implied by "infinite".

 

I've also heard the strong anthropic principle (never knew a name for it) applied to the likelihood of life on other planets an how unique "we" potentially are. It makes a lot of sense to me, but doesn't really answer many questions.

[Gene Frenkle]

Yet the fact remains that dark matter itself has never been directly observed. Its effects yes, itself, no.

 

(And yes, i am a believer in both dark matter and God)

It doesn't matter (get it?). It has been seen to interact with the physical world and in doing so it is by definition not supernatural. Next you should start talking about how we don't know everything about quantum theory. Then get on the "missing link". It's all god of the gaps and it's not even worth discussing.