ieatcrayonz Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 A much better effort. You truly are antagonistic. Do you have any questions you'd like to ask in GvG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 You're still basing your faith on nothing. Do what you will of course. You have obviously given this a lot of thought and it sounds like you were once where I am now. What caused you to change your mind? I ask because while it certainly might be nice to believe in a higher power, I don't think people can force themselves to believe in such things. Too many unexplained coincidences, things working out when they probably shouldn't have and unconditional love and guidance from some folks that I didn't think even understood.... The final deal was the miracle of having my first child born... can't tell you why and you are right, I am basing my faith on things that I cannot adequately explain with words but yet I still feel a connection to... I came to the conclusion or delusion that crap happens and the faith allows you to get through any situation and know that no matter what happens outwardly, deep within inwardly I can deal... Earlier in life I wasn't so sure, wasn't so sure I would make it to 25 years old. You witness and survive a few things and suddenly you realize that there is a purpose to life and probably one afterward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Where do the supernatural claims come from and why should they be given consideration? So, if I understand what you're saying, if WE can't observe something RIGHT NOW it must not exist? That's the failing of science. What was science 200 years ago is bull today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 This thread is awesome. It illustrates how wrapped up people get in their religion - there is real anger here! The bottom line is, you can't defend irrational belief in a rational way. That doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't believe in your religion-of-choice personally, but understand that it is in no way a rational way of thinking and that it simply cannot be defended with any sort of evidence. The lack of belief is a belief in and of itself. You have to CHOOSE to believe that there is no God. So, whether you like it or not, you're placing faith in "science" and "rational thought." You're a humanist by definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 The lack of belief is a belief in and of itself. You have to CHOOSE to believe that there is no God. So, whether you like it or not, you're placing faith in "science" and "rational thought." You're a humanist by definition. Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself.... not sure about the humanist... he could be animist or some other ist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself.... not sure about the humanist... he could be animist or some other ist. This is the salient point that absolutely pees in the atheist's cornflakes. They are placing faith in a lack of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 The lack of belief is a belief in and of itself. You have to CHOOSE to believe that there is no God. So, whether you like it or not, you're placing faith in "science" and "rational thought." You're a humanist by definition. Either way (religion or atheism), it's belief in an a priori assumption. Personally...I've said it before, I believe in empiricism (which is the a priori assumption that what I see is what is, yes). But it has the benefit over most assumptions of being testable and falsifiable, which neither religion nor atheism is. As for my belief in God...I don't have one either way. It's not an empirically testable concept, and I make no assumptions about his existence or lack thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 You're still basing your faith on nothing. Do what you will of course. You have obviously given this a lot of thought and it sounds like you were once where I am now. What caused you to change your mind? I ask because while it certainly might be nice to believe in a higher power, I don't think people can force themselves to believe in such things. 5500 years of history shows that what, 99% of the populations and civilizations that exist and ever existed believed in some type of higher power(s). Religion has stood the test of time longer than anything else. Thats enough evidence right there to support the theory that religion and a higher power do exist. Not to mention i've seen too many things myself that cannot be explained by any scientific means. Speaking more scientifically, everywhere civilization pops up, religion pops up. Religions have formed throughout the world in many different places at many different times. Statistically speaking, if there was no God or higher power(s), somewhere along the way there would have been multiple societies and civilizations with no use for religion and higher powers. I can't even begin to pretend to know where religion and God came from. Perhaps it was space aliens that landed on pre-historic Earth (this would explain why all of our "God/Gods" are said to live in the sky). Perhaps it was something else. Scientists have observed the effects of dark matter, yet we do not have direct proof of its existence. But it is pretty widely accepted as truth. Substitute religion in for dark matter and nothing about that statement changes. But just because you can't observe something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'll try to relate it to your situation. You probably go around arguing that vagina doesn't exist because you've never directly experienced it. That doesn't make you right or truthful, it simply makes you a mal-informed virgin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Speaking more scientifically, everywhere civilization pops up, religion pops up. So do Bigfoot legends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 The lack of belief is a belief in and of itself. You have to CHOOSE to believe that there is no God. So, whether you like it or not, you're placing faith in "science" and "rational thought." You're a humanist by definition. Wrong big guy, I don't CHOOSE to believe in anything any more than I CHOOSE to love anything. It's not a matter of choice if you're being honest with yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Speaking more scientifically, everywhere civilization pops up, religion pops up. Followed by Starbucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Either way (religion or atheism), it's belief in an a priori assumption. Personally...I've said it before, I believe in empiricism (which is the a priori assumption that what I see is what is, yes). But it has the benefit over most assumptions of being testable and falsifiable, which neither religion nor atheism is. As for my belief in God...I don't have one either way. It's not an empirically testable concept, and I make no assumptions about his existence or lack thereof. Which makes you at least an agnostic. An atheist in the sense that you only have an absence of belief. There should not be such a stigma attached to these words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endzone Animal Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Wrong big guy, I don't CHOOSE to believe in anything any more than I CHOOSE to love anything. It's not a matter of choice if you're being honest with yourself. So, someone apparently imposed militant atheism upon you rather than you choosing it with your own free will. Same with your love interests. How sad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ieatcrayonz Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 So, someone apparently imposed militant atheism upon you rather than you choosing it with your own free will. Same with your love interests. How sad... Sad? What is sad? Sad cannot be proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endzone Animal Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Sad? What is sad? Sad cannot be proven. Maybe it was God who imposed militant atheism upon him and then forced him to fall in love love against his will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Wow, you always seemed smarter than this... 5500 years of history shows that what, 99% of the populations and civilizations that exist and ever existed believed in some type of higher power(s). Religion has stood the test of time longer than anything else. Thats enough evidence right there to support the theory that religion and a higher power do exist. Not to mention i've seen too many things myself that cannot be explained by any scientific means. Speaking more scientifically, everywhere civilization pops up, religion pops up. Religions have formed throughout the world in many different places at many different times. Statistically speaking, if there was no God or higher power(s), somewhere along the way there would have been multiple societies and civilizations with no use for religion and higher powers. There's nothing scientific here. Even if 100% of anyone ever born both believed in a higher power and saw things that "cannot be explained by any scientific means", it still would not be scientifically significant. You're pulling stats out of your ass. There are several very plausible evolutionary explanations for your observation. After a quick search, this article that glosses over some possibilities: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1398...e-suggests.html I can't even begin to pretend to know where religion and God came from. Perhaps it was space aliens that landed on pre-historic Earth (this would explain why all of our "God/Gods" are said to live in the sky). Perhaps it was something else. Scientists have observed the effects of dark matter, yet we do not have direct proof of its existence. But it is pretty widely accepted as truth. Substitute religion in for dark matter and nothing about that statement changes. But just because you can't observe something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Well, Occam's razor says the simplest explanation is best, so your ancient space aliens theory is probably right. Be sure to bring it up at your next Scientology meeting. Dark matter can be observed gravitationally, which immediately takes it out of the realm of supernatural or religion. This is a low-budget 'god of the gaps' argument because there's not even a scientific gap. Try again. I'll try to relate it to your situation. You probably go around arguing that vagina doesn't exist because you've never directly experienced it. That doesn't make you right or truthful, it simply makes you a mal-informed virgin. When all else fails, attack with an ad-hominem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Wrong big guy, I don't CHOOSE to believe in anything any more than I CHOOSE to love anything. It's not a matter of choice if you're being honest with yourself. Did someone hit you with a blunt object until you believed what you believe? No one forced me to believe in the salvation of Jesus Christ. I chose to believe it. And you most definitely CAN choose to love something. You're a Bills fan. You can walk away from them any time you want. But you CHOOSE not to. You're a big boy, mom and dad aren't making your decisions for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Which makes you at least an agnostic. An atheist in the sense that you only have an absence of belief. There should not be such a stigma attached to these words. I'm fine with agnostic (though I prefer "empiricist", as it more conclusively distinguishes between that which can and cannot be known). "Athiest" I'd reject, as it's most literally translated as "without God", which does not accurately describe my view on the subject, which is not a disbelief in God as much as recognition of my own inability to empirically "know" God (which is literally "agnostic" - "a" = not, "gnostos" = knowable, in Attic Greek. And I didn't even have to look it up.) And really, when you think of that viewpoint...and myself...it's surprisingly humble of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Dark matter can be observed gravitationally, which immediately takes it out of the realm of supernatural or religion. This is a low-budget 'god of the gaps' argument because there's not even a scientific gap. Try again. Dark matter has never been directly observed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 You're a Bills fan. You can walk away from them any time you want. No we can't. !@#$ing soul-stealing bastards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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