Rotation between Kelsay and Ryan Denney

[San-O]

Now that Kelsay has won the starting LDE spot, can we say Denney is

officially a bust?

 

I think so, however there have been a lot of people saying he is not.

 

This is his third season I believe and we all know the draft day history to

trade up and get him, which was described as a reach by most at the time.

 

What say you.

 

[Typical TBD Guy]

Definitely a bust if your second rounder (which you traded UP for!) isn't a starter by the middle of his third season (also, Denney is already 28 years old!).

 

However, at least he's a solid backup, run specialist, and field goal special teamer.

[Brandon]

Normally, I'd say that under these circumstances a player should not be deemed a bust. Travis Henry is a perfect example of a good player who has lost his starting job simply because the guy who took his place is even better.

 

That *may* be partially the case here. Kelsay has shown enough promise to lead me to believe he can be a pretty good NFL DE. If that proves true, Denney was simply beaten out by a better player. However, in this case, I think this demotion says almost as much about Denney's ability level as it does Kelsay's. Denney simply has not proven to be the type of player that you give up a 2nd and 4th round draft pick for.

 

Is he a bust? In absolute terms, no. At worst, Denney is a capable 3rd DE in the lineup who generally does not embarass himself when he plays. Then again, based upon the expectations of a 2nd round draft choice, you have to consider the guy to be a disappointment, if not a bust. On his best day, he's an average starter who very rarely, if ever, makes the big play. That's not the type of player you expect for the investment the Bills made.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Denney simply has not proven to be the type of player that you give up a 2nd and 4th round draft pick for. 

The Bills actually gave up a 3rd and 4th for Denney, making him a late 2nd round pick. I guess it would be best to compare him to other late 2nd round picks of late.

[Nanker]

Phil Dokes was and is a bust.

Ryan Denny can at least play football.

He is not a bust.

 

Is an UDFA a boom then if he makes the team?

Does every one of them make every draft pick a bust?

Why then do we need to draft anybody?

Don't the draft picks that stick make all the veterans a bust?

 

We should not draft anybody.

Let's just sign free agents.

That way we'll never be faced with the terrible position of having a bust again.

Let's begin a fight against busts!

Boycott the draft.

I can't take the pressure.

It's just not fair.

Bwwwahhhhahahahaaaa

 

[Mile High]

Definitely a bust if your second rounder (which you traded UP for!) isn't a starter by the middle of his third season (also, Denney is already 28 years old!).

 

However, at least he's a solid backup, run specialist, and field goal special teamer.

115518[/snapback]

 

i would have to agree with all of the above. if he was a little bit younger one would tend to give him another year for development reasons. but, due to his age and where he was drafted in the draft then yes i would say a bust is apparent. i really like what kelsay has to offer this team and i feel that he is more of a "football" player than denney. by this i mean that you can weigh 300 lbs. and take up space but can you play the game? kelsay can.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Definitely a bust if your second rounder (which you traded UP for!) isn't a starter by the middle of his third season (also, Denney is already 28 years old!).

 

However, at least he's a solid backup, run specialist, and field goal special teamer.

115518[/snapback]

 

 

Ryan Leaf I define as a bust because he is out of the game and never contributed. Denney has been a disappointment for the level he was drafted, but as you say he is a back-up (your designation of him as a "solid" back-up is debatable but I guess as a former starter he gets the benefit of the doubt on this one) and is not best defined as a bust in my mind.

 

Given the sense that by some professional estimation 50% of 1st rounders disappoint and never meet expectations deeming this as as the definition of a bust means that every team and every draft meister has bust so it makes this term less significant.

 

In terms of the individual player and assessing him, the question on this particular point comes down to one for me of whether Kelsay won the starting job because he has elevated his play or he won it because Denny sucks.

 

I think we will see tomorrow night which is the case. My sense is that the Bills think (hope) Kelsay can become a quality LDE whom OCs have to account for with special action when they make their plans to attack the Bills D. Denny's prime failing for the Bills was that the opposing OC could account for him through normal activity and simply requiring his LT to make his blocks.

 

The cadillac LDE was Bruce Smith as the opposing OC had to tell two OL players to look for Smith (and maybe even have a third player chip block him. OC's faced the quandary that if they ran away from Smith they not only got rid of a big chunk of their run playbook, but he might chase the RB down. If they ran at him, he had the strength to hold his ground.

 

Kelsay reasonably seems to me that he can require an opposing OC to assign a player to watch the intial LT block to see if Kelsay beats the LT and then chip him if he does. Further, his play will mandate that if the left side is the point of attack then the OC better then double team Kelsay and if the point of attack is the right side he will need to assign a player to seal the backside (which will stop him from double-teaming Schobel.

 

I don't think that the Kelsay pronouncement so much means that Denney is a bust as it means that the Bills braintrust is now challenging Kelsay to stand-up. I hope that Sunday's game proves he is up to it.

[San-O]

Definitely a bust if your second rounder (which you traded UP for!) isn't a starter by the middle of his third season (also, Denney is already 28 years old!).

 

However, at least he's a solid backup, run specialist, and field goal special teamer.

115518[/snapback]

 

 

I believe so also.

 

People can spin the second round and contributing all they want, but TD gave up

two picks to get one, an old one at that.

 

Reaching to get a player and move up in the second round because you are

sure he is really much more valuable and talented than other teams that

passed on him, gets him the BUST label.

 

Second round draft picks you gave up two players to draft have to be starters,

or why would you invest so much to get them.

 

Bad move by TD which was questioned at the time having gone 3 -13 the

previous season.

 

IMHO.

[San-O]

Phil Dokes was and is a bust.

Ryan Denny can at least play football.

He is not a bust.

 

Is an UDFA a boom then if he makes the team?

Does every one of them make every draft pick a bust?

Why then do we need to draft anybody?

Don't the draft picks that stick make all the veterans a bust?

 

We should not draft anybody.

Let's just sign free agents.

That way we'll never be faced with the terrible position of having a bust again.

Let's begin a fight against busts!

Boycott the draft.

I can't take the pressure.

It's just not fair.

Bwwwahhhhahahahaaaa

 

 

A 2nd and 4th pick to move up and get Denney, who does not start and has never

made a play that I recall gets him the BUST label.

 

Denney didn't make the mistake, TD did by giving up so much to get him.

 

This in a very real sense means TD really felt Denney was a late first rounder

everyone else did not evaluate correcty.

 

 

115533[/snapback]

[San-O]

Ryan Leaf I define as a bust because he is out of the game and never contributed.  Denney has been a disappointment for the level he was drafted, but as you say he is a back-up (your designation of him as a "solid" back-up is debatable but I guess as a former starter he gets the benefit of the doubt on this one) and is not best defined as a bust in my mind.

 

Given the sense that by some professional estimation 50% of 1st rounders disappoint and never meet expectations deeming this as as the definition of a bust means that every team and every draft meister has bust so it makes this term less significant.

 

In terms of the individual player and assessing him, the question on this particular point comes down to one for me of whether Kelsay won the starting job because he has elevated his play or he won it because Denny sucks.

 

I think we will see tomorrow night which is the case.  My sense is that the Bills think (hope) Kelsay can become a quality LDE whom OCs have to account for with special action when they make their plans to attack the Bills D.  Denny's prime failing for the Bills was that the opposing OC could account for him through normal activity and simply requiring his LT to make his blocks.

 

The cadillac LDE was Bruce Smith as the opposing OC had to tell two OL players to look for Smith (and maybe even have a third player chip block him.  OC's faced the quandary that if they ran away from Smith they not only got rid of a big chunk of their run playbook, but he might chase the RB down.  If they ran at him, he had the strength to hold his ground.

 

Kelsay reasonably seems to me that he can require an opposing OC to assign a player to watch the intial LT block to see if Kelsay beats the LT and then chip him if he does. Further, his play will mandate that if the left side is the point of attack then the OC better then double team Kelsay and if the point of attack is the right side he will need to assign a player to seal the backside (which will stop him from double-teaming Schobel.

 

I don't think that the Kelsay pronouncement so much means that Denney is a bust as it means that the Bills braintrust is now challenging Kelsay to stand-up.  I hope that Sunday's game proves he is up to it.

115563[/snapback]

 

 

Ryan Leaf single handedly destroyed that franchise for about five years.

 

He was a franchise KILLER!

 

Denney is simply a bust.

 

[eSJayDee]

Who'd you rather have on your team, Denney or Erik Flowers?

Think of it this way - what do you think the odds are of Denney making the team next year and if he doesn't, unable to sign anywhere else where he has much of a chance of seeing significant playing time. That will be his 4th year, correct? That means that his career lasted longer than average AND he saw significant playing time.

Certainly, he wasn't all that we had hoped for and further, if assuming we did indeed give up a 3rd & 4th to move up to take him (I'm too lazy to confirm this & don't remember), I'd say there's probably about even odds that you'd get at least as good of production out of at least one of the other choices.

So I would categorize it as a 'poor' use of draft choice(s), but would not consider him a bust.

Basically, for any given place a player is taken, there's a range of expected production. I'd say he's fallen at the lower end of average about a std. deviation or so below.

[Dan Gross]

I believe so also.

 

People can spin the second round and contributing all they want, but TD gave up

two picks to get one, an old one at that.

 

Reaching to get a player and move up in the second round because you are

sure he is really much more valuable and talented than other teams that

passed on him, gets him the BUST label.

 

Second round draft picks you gave up two players to draft have to be starters,

or why would you invest so much to get them.

 

Bad move by TD which was questioned at the time having gone 3 -13 the

previous season.

 

IMHO.

115584[/snapback]

They gave up one player. I don't get how people can't do the math of draft day trades. Remember that when you are trading away two picks you are getting one in return. Last I checked 2-1 = 1. And this was a year they had a wealth of compensatory picks....

 

Besides, everyone here says that TD sucks on the 2nd day of the draft, so a 4th round pick is not a real loss....

 

Again a "no win" scenario. You have one position with two 2nd round players vying for it. So whoever doesn't win it is automatically a bust.

[San-O]

They gave up one player.  I don't get how people can't do the math of draft day trades.  Remember that when you are trading away two picks you are getting one in return.  Last I checked 2-1 = 1.  And this was a year they had a wealth of compensatory picks....

 

Besides, everyone here says that TD sucks on the 2nd day of the draft, so a 4th round pick is not a real loss....

 

Again a "no win" scenario.  You have one position with two 2nd round players vying for it.  So whoever doesn't win it is automatically a bust. 

115652[/snapback]

 

 

They gave up two (1 + 1 = 2) players to get him.

[MDH]

Now that Kelsay has won the starting LDE spot, can we say Denney is

officially a bust?

 

I think so, however there have been a lot of people saying he is not.

 

This is his third season I believe and we all know the draft day history to

trade up and get him, which was described as a reach by most at the time.

 

What say you.

 

115514[/snapback]

 

Not that I'm going to defend Denny's play...but the way you're defining it, no matter who lost the battle between Denney and Kelsay they would be termed a "bust"...even if both were solid players...both of 'em can't start at the same position.

 

That being said...I've yet to see Denny do anything that impressed me on a semi consistant basis.

[The Jokeman]

I guess it would be best to compare him to other late 2nd round picks of late.

115530[/snapback]

I think you're partially right, what's not fair as each draft is different and some drafts have far much more talent then others. Case in point that 2001 draft was much stronger then the 2002, not only because we were able to get Henry and Schobel in the 2nd but it had more talent on the whole. Not to mention it does take a player about 3-4 years to develop in the NFL.

 

Here's a quick look at the last 10 picks of the 2002 draft and where they stand:

  2 24 56 Ladell Betts Redskins: 2nd String RB

  2 25 57 Jon McGraw Jets 2nd String FS

  2 26 58 Michael Lewis Eagles 1st String SS

  2 27 59 Sheldon Brown Eagles 1st String CB

  2 28 60 Anton Palepoi Seahawks 2nd String DE w/Broncos

  2 29 61 Ryan Denney Bills 2nd String DE

  2 30 62 Antwaan Randle El Steelers 3rd WR/Primary Returner

  2 31 63 Antonio Bryant Cowboys 3rd WR w/Browns

  2 32 64 Travis Fisher Rams 2nd String CB

  2 33 65 Deion Branch Patriots 3rd WR

In comparison:

  2 22 53 Quincy Carter Cowboys 2nd String QB (Starter due to injury) w/ Jets

  2 23 54 Michael Stone Cardinals 2nd String SS

  2 24 55 Quinton Caver Eagles 2nd String LB (Starter due to injury) w/ Chiefs

  2 25 56 Tony Dixon Cowboys 1st String SS

  2 26 57 Willie Howard Vikings OUT OF FOOTBALL

  2 27 58 Travis Henry Bills 2nd String RB

  2 28 59 Marques Tuiasosopo Raiders 2nd String QB

  2 29 60 Andre Dyson Titans 1st String CB

  2 30 61 Shaun Rogers Lions 1st String DT

  2 31 62 Gary Baxter Ravens 1st String CB

I wouldn't call Denney a bust, as coming out he was discussed as a strong run stopping DE with limited pass rush ability which he has shown here for the most part. I think Denney's a solid player yet Kelsay brings more to the table and that's why he got benched. He might never live up to his draft status, but think he's worth keeping around as a depth/wave player.

 

In terms of what we gave up, I did slightly outline that in a thread comparing McKinnie and Mike Williams if want to dig it up. But if want to go on pure player vs players the 49ers ended up with LB Saleem Rasheed, who might be starting in place of Julian Peterson but as of yet shown to be nothing more then a back up and K Jeff Chandler, who was out of the NFL and last I heard. He might have gotten a token call with the Rams a few weeks back when Wilkins was ailing.