Thurman#1 Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 Agree with all that but still, nobody can point to bad CB play as a weakness on this team. It's pretty much played at the same level as when we had NC. Where's the pass rush? GO BILLS!!! Hunh? The year after Clements left was a horror show. Remember we had to briefly yank McGee for a lack of confidence? We're better again now, assuming that McKelvin improves as we all expect him to, but we haven't had a guy coming up with INTs like Clements did.
Thurman#1 Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 Um, the Bills finished 13th in pass defense while the Niners finished 20th. http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?arc...e&Submit=Go I apologize for the facts. The irrelevant facts. Blaming the whole defense on Clements is like blaming all our offensive problems on, I don't know, Hangartner. And DBs more even than OLs rely on the efficiency of others to make plays. Doesn't make sense.
Leonidas Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 pssst....Thurman...you're the only one posting on this thread anymore. I just gave you a major thumbs up on another thread, but you're dead wrong here. Clements will have a top 5 year once again as the rest of the defense plays better, and Winfield consistently uses his body to prevent the reciever from getting in position to recieve the pass. He is a wickedly effective pass defender as well as - you're right - one of the two or three best run defenders in the league. He got another $7+ mill / year deal this year. Because he deserved it. I disagree, but this can't be resolved here or now. We'll just see how Clements plays this year. Every contract is overblown. You say 7/$64M is more palatable, but realistically if you took off the last year of everyone's contract they would all come down and 7/$64M wouldn't sound like such a good deal. You have to compare apples to apples here. I watched him play in Buffalo and while impressed, I didn't think he was a top five corner then or now. Not even close. Solid corner, definitely. #1 CB material? Certainly. But that only puts him in the top 32. Top 15 might be more appropriate. Concerning Winfield, I haven't watched him play much since he left Buffalo, and he was always nasty against the run and against the screen with us, but I remember watching Terrell Owens literally abuse him a few years ago. Now of course Owens has abused many corners, but the size difference was startling. Imagine 5'8" Winfield against 6'4" Moss? 6'4" Brandon Marshall? 6'3" Braylon Edwards? 6'6" Burress (pre-prison)? Whether due to the new rules restricting contact or not, it's nearly impossible for a corner to "use his body" to make up that kind of difference. Again, I love the guy, but outside from sitting in a cover 2 zone, he's a huge liability in pass coverage.
dave mcbride Posted September 14, 2009 Author Posted September 14, 2009 A total stud wouldn't give up that easy TD to Fitzgerald. 4 tackles and 1 INT (that was thrown right to him)...I would say he looked like an average CB. You're joking, right? Seriously. On that play, there was no pressure, and Warner had tons of time. Sooner or later, a WR of Fitzgerald's caliber is going to get open if the QB has time. Moreover, the coverage wasn't bad. Earlier in the game, he made a great breakup of a potential TD pass to Fitzgerald. Also, there's a reason LF wasn't seeing the ball late in the game - he was covered.
The Dean Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 Concerning Winfield, I haven't watched him play much since he left Buffalo, and he was always nasty against the run and against the screen with us, but I remember watching Terrell Owens literally abuse him a few years ago. Now of course Owens has abused many corners, but the size difference was startling. Imagine 5'8" Winfield against 6'4" Moss? 6'4" Brandon Marshall? 6'3" Braylon Edwards? 6'6" Burress (pre-prison)? Whether due to the new rules restricting contact or not, it's nearly impossible for a corner to "use his body" to make up that kind of difference. Again, I love the guy, but outside from sitting in a cover 2 zone, he's a huge liability in pass coverage. Liability in pass coverage? Winfield is one of the league's premier cover CBs. He is a better cover CB than Nate, IMO. His size can be problematic, but that is true of most CBs in the NFL when going against the taller WRs in the league. Antoine is left on an island more than most NFL CBs. Do you see him regularly getting burned, or even exploited? Nate is a more opportunistic CB to be sure, but that's really the only area where he is better than Winfield (and the 3 extra inches help him. too).
Mr. WEO Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 Liability in pass coverage? Winfield is one of the league's premier cover CBs. He is a better cover CB than Nate, IMO. His size can be problematic, but that is true of most CBs in the NFL when going against the taller WRs in the league. Antoine is left on an island more than most NFL CBs. Do you see him regularly getting burned, or even exploited? Nate is a more opportunistic CB to be sure, but that's really the only area where he is better than Winfield (and the 3 extra inches help him. too). Only when he was in Buffalo. Don't see many Vikes games.
K-9 Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 Hunh? The year after Clements left was a horror show. Remember we had to briefly yank McGee for a lack of confidence? We're better again now, assuming that McKelvin improves as we all expect him to, but we haven't had a guy coming up with INTs like Clements did. That's true. But 2007, our first year without him, was a nigthmare for the defense from an injury standpoint. All I'm saying is the CB play hasn't been the main weakness on our defense since Clements left nor has it declined as a result of his leaving. That's not to say I wouldn't have preferred the Bills found a way to keep him but I'm not convinced we'd be that much better off given the problems in the front seven. GO BILLS!!!
jjsiepierski34 Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 Here in Chicago, I was forced to watch the Vikings/Browns. Besides for the Adrian Peterson performance which was quite obvious, what else stood out to me was how dominant Pat Williams is on the Vikings D Line and how solid Antoine Winfield is. Those two RUN that entire Defense; Sad we let those two get away....along with Clements. Mis-managed cap space, although we were never gonna re-sign Clements. Fat Pat was a GREAT Bill.
BillsVet Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 This board will always argue about whether or not the Bills should have retained NC, but keeping him would have freed up some future draft picks. The Bills have had a tendency to replace departed free agents or released bust UFA's (EDIT: with high draft picks). Buffalo never had a strategy in place when NC was up for UFA in early 06. They took the easy route out and franchised him without any intention of re-signing him. Yes he was expensive, but it would not have been 7/64M bad in early 06. The key is not letting future FA's get into their contract year. The reason Tennessee could afford to let Haynesworth go was their depth on the DL. The same cannot be said of Buffalo's secondary in 2007.
Leonidas Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 He's looking like a total stud right now against the Cardinals. how did he look on Sunday, Dave?? No, because he's a crappy DB. 'Learing on the fly'? He's a friggin veteran CB, not a rookie QB. I notice you didn't include the stats for 'Getting burnt', 'big plays given up' or 'missed tackles'. The Giants game today provided plenty of examples of why Hall is a very medicore football player. Apparently you missed it. Apparently I did miss it. Hall has three picks today on a team that is 3rd in the NFL in pass defense. Clements has one pick on the 24th ranked passing defense in the league. I must be missing something here... Don't worry, he'll be back to getting burnt next week.... how prophetic... (no sarcasm here) Liability in pass coverage? Winfield is one of the league's premier cover CBs. He is a better cover CB than Nate, IMO. His size can be problematic, but that is true of most CBs in the NFL when going against the taller WRs in the league. Antoine is left on an island more than most NFL CBs. Do you see him regularly getting burned, or even exploited? Nate is a more opportunistic CB to be sure, but that's really the only area where he is better than Winfield (and the 3 extra inches help him. too). He's not a premier cover corner. Not to say he doesn't have the talent - although he's getting old now - but at 5'8" he's always been a liability. Antoine is the shortest CB in the league if I'm not mistaken (if not, he's certainly up there). Nate at least had decent size at 5'11", but he's still nowhere near the top 5.
dave mcbride Posted October 13, 2009 Author Posted October 13, 2009 how did he look on Sunday, Dave?? You're dredging this thread up?? As for his performance, I don't know -- I didn't watch the game. But every CB gets burned -- it's part of the gig. Darelle Revis was badly burned last night; it doesn't mean that he's not one of the best CBs in the league.
Leonidas Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Revis is a young corner who got burned deep by one of the fastest guys in the league. Clements got burned on a hook route for a 70 yard touchdown doing what he aways does: taking unnecessary risks. But I am impressed in your turn-around time responding to this...
dave mcbride Posted October 13, 2009 Author Posted October 13, 2009 Revis is a young corner who got burned deep by one of the fastest guys in the league. Clements got burned on a hook route for a 70 yard touchdown doing what he aways does: taking unnecessary risks. But I am impressed in your turn-around time responding to this... Whatever. Ted Ginn hadn't made a play all season until last night. At any rate, I'm happy to see ex-Bills like Peters, Winfield, and Clements succeed elsewhere. I have nothing against them.
Mark Vader Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 The 49'ers secondary had a very tough day against the Falcons, but nothing was worse than the interception and fumble of Dre' Bly. http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8...mp;confirm=true It's the second video a little further down. What an idiotic play from a veteran player.
NoName Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Nate is a very good CB (not top 5, IMO). Winfield is still a better all-around CB than Nate. I agree 100 percent
nmas3 Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 Didn't see Nate today, but in his first year in the Bay, he was excellent. I watched the Vikings/Browns today and let me say that Antoine Winfield was a complete stud. Stronger in run support than any defender currently on the Bills and mostly avoided in coverage. Watching him and Phat Pat hold down the fort for the vikings was a pleasure (the other Williams was pretty good too). You said what I was going to say, every time I watch the Vikings Winfield is all over the place making plays. I wish we still had him and Big Pat!
bills44 Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 Revis is a young corner who got burned deep by one of the fastest guys in the league. Clements got burned on a hook route for a 70 yard touchdown doing what he aways does: taking unnecessary risks. But I am impressed in your turn-around time responding to this... it was actually 90 yards
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