Dockery's heart wasn't into playing in Buffalo

[R. Rich]

Something you may find of interest:

http://www.oleantimesherald.com/articles/2...d2845581630.txt

 

 

I don't think it's as simple as blaming Guy. Sure, there were moves that didn't pan out. They mention Dockery. Well, I watched the pre-season game where Pittsburgh played the Redskins, and Dockery looked pretty good in his blocking there. He's reunited w/ his boy Chris Samuels and they looked sharp, especially on the inital drive of that game. So, it's not that Dockery "sucks" and can't get it done. He simply didn't get it down while w/ the Bills.

 

You think his play would've been as lackluster in Buffalo if the coach was a guy like Parcells? You know, someone that would not only challenge players, but get 'em to develop?

[Beerball]

I don't think it's as simple as blaming Guy. Sure, there were moves that didn't pan out. They mention Dockery. Well, I watched the pre-season game where Pittsburgh played the Redskins, and Dockery looked pretty good in his blocking there. He's reunited w/ his boy Chris Samuels and they looked sharp, especially on the inital drive of that game. So, it's not that Dockery "sucks" and can't get it done. He simply didn't get it down while w/ the Bills.

 

You think his play would've been as lackluster in Buffalo if the coach was a guy like Parcells? You know, someone that would not only challenge players, but get 'em to develop?

Can anyone name me one offensive player on the current roster who has developed?(in a good way)

[R. Rich]

Few, if any.

 

That's the reason why I don't tend to bash individual players like Whitner. He didn't draft himself, and certainly didn't devise his own defensive schemes. I wonder just how ANY player would fare on the Bills' roster. People lament the passing over of big guys, like Vince Wilfork for Lee Evans or Haloti Ngata for Whitner, but who's to say Wilfork or Ngata would be as effective in Buffalo w/ this coaching staff? I think that while both guys are talented and that can't be taken away from 'em, in terms of awareness and recognition, they'd be pretty much on their own, and that would hamper their development. In other words, I don't think either would be the player @ the level they're now @ if they had been drafted by the Bills. And I certainly don't think that the Bills would be a better team even w/ those guys, 'cause they still would be coached by the same guys.

[Lori]

Few, if any.

 

That's the reason why I don't tend to bash individual players like Whitner. He didn't draft himself, and certainly didn't devise his own defensive schemes. I wonder just how ANY player would fare on the Bills' roster. People lament the passing over of big guys, like Vince Wilfork for Lee Evans or Haloti Ngata for Whitner, but who's to say Wilfork or Ngata would be as effective in Buffalo w/ this coaching staff? I think that while both guys are talented and that can't be taken away from 'em, in terms of awareness and recognition, they'd be pretty much on their own, and that would hamper their development. In other words, I don't think either would be the player @ the level they're now @ if they had been drafted by the Bills. And I certainly don't think that the Bills would be a better team even w/ those guys, 'cause they still would be coached by the same guys.

Can't argue with that. If you want to talk regression, just look at the QBs. OTOH, I do think it's telling that most of the free agent o-linemen from the Donahoe era (with the notable exception of Gandy) disappeared from the league not long after the Bills gave up on them. Been a bunch of other misses, too. Everyone loved to hate on Coy Wire, but if Billy Jenkins hadn't ended up being an absolute waste of a roster spot, the kid probably would've stayed on special teams his rookie year instead of getting tossed into the fire.

 

I also think Scott's counterpoint about Levy hiring Jauron is valid; I know he opposed the moved from the beginning. But while I wouldn't go as far as Chuck did -- and despite what he wrote here, if you pressed him, I'm not sure he'd argue that Levy is entirely blameless -- I do believe that the pro personnel department has made its own contribution to nine seasons (and counting) of playoff-free Bills football.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Can't argue with that. If you want to talk regression, just look at the QBs. OTOH, I do think it's telling that most of the free agent o-linemen from the Donahoe era (with the notable exception of Gandy) disappeared from the league not long after the Bills gave up on them. Been a bunch of other misses, too. Everyone loved to hate on Coy Wire, but if Billy Jenkins hadn't ended up being an absolute waste of a roster spot, the kid probably would've stayed on special teams his rookie year instead of getting tossed into the fire.

 

I also think Scott's counterpoint about Levy hiring Jauron is valid; I know he opposed the moved from the beginning. But while I wouldn't go as far as Chuck did -- and despite what he wrote here, if you pressed him, I'm not sure he'd argue that Levy is entirely blameless -- I do believe that the pro personnel department has made its own contribution to nine seasons (and counting) of playoff-free Bills football.

A decision that things are "in good hands" and that one doesn't have to do anything different, just relieve some tension and make it a fun workplace, is still a decision. And, it was the wrong decision. As was hiring Dick Jauron who was the wrong choice to lead an NFL team out of the wilderness, as I have said from the beginning.

[R. Rich]

Can't argue with that. If you want to talk regression, just look at the QBs. OTOH, I do think it's telling that most of the free agent o-linemen from the Donahoe era (with the notable exception of Gandy) disappeared from the league not long after the Bills gave up on them. Been a bunch of other misses, too. Everyone loved to hate on Coy Wire, but if Billy Jenkins hadn't ended up being an absolute waste of a roster spot, the kid probably would've stayed on special teams his rookie year instead of getting tossed into the fire.

 

 

What do you mean, "can't argue w/ that"? You post on TBD, don't you?

 

The examples of Wilfork and Ngata are to the "we shoulda drafted (player I wanted and posted 'bout ad nauseum here)" crowd. You mention free agent misfires. Not the same thing. Both go to showing the poor judgment of management, but you're more able to recover from one (rookies who just need someone to guide and develop 'em) than the other (used and/or broken down guys like Kris "I won the Outland Trophy" Farris).

[R. Rich]

A decision that things are "in good hands" and that one doesn't have to do anything different, just relieve some tension and make it a fun workplace, is still a decision. And, it was the wrong decision. As was hiring Dick Jauron who was the wrong choice to lead an NFL team out of the wilderness, as I have said from the beginning.

 

 

Of time?

[Guest dog14787]

Can't argue with that. If you want to talk regression, just look at the QBs. OTOH, I do think it's telling that most of the free agent o-linemen from the Donahoe era (with the notable exception of Gandy) disappeared from the league not long after the Bills gave up on them. Been a bunch of other misses, too. Everyone loved to hate on Coy Wire, but if Billy Jenkins hadn't ended up being an absolute waste of a roster spot, the kid probably would've stayed on special teams his rookie year instead of getting tossed into the fire.

 

I also think Scott's counterpoint about Levy hiring Jauron is valid; I know he opposed the moved from the beginning. But while I wouldn't go as far as Chuck did -- and despite what he wrote here, if you pressed him, I'm not sure he'd argue that Levy is entirely blameless -- I do believe that the pro personnel department has made its own contribution to nine seasons (and counting) of playoff-free Bills football.

 

 

If you look at how Buffalo has treated its players over the last decade we are lucky to have anybody who wants to play in Buffalo at all. Zero loyalty for your efforts, and we just might ruin your career, that's what Buffalo has to offer.

 

The lack of proper management has been clearly evident and now we don't even have a GM, talk about regressing.

[Lori]

What do you mean, "can't argue w/ that"? You post on TBD, don't you?

 

The examples of Wilfork and Ngata are to the "we shoulda drafted (player I wanted and posted 'bout ad nauseum here)" crowd. You mention free agent misfires. Not the same thing. Both go to showing the poor judgment of management, but you're more able to recover from one (rookies who just need someone to guide and develop 'em) than the other (used and/or broken down guys like Kris "I won the Outland Trophy" Farris).

But the FA misfires were the entire point of Chuck's column.

 

And you know I was on the "Gotta Ngata" bandwagon ...

[Sisyphean Bills]

Of time?

Didn't realize that would be confusing. No, from when Marv hired him.

[K-9]

If you look at how Buffalo has treated its players over the last decade we are lucky to have anybody who wants to play in Buffalo at all. Zero loyalty for your efforts, and we just might ruin your career, that's what Buffalo has to offer.

 

The lack of proper management has been clearly evident and now we don't even have a GM, talk about regressing.

 

More BS resulting from not renegotiating with Peters. Do I really have to name all the players the Bills have renegotiated as a reward for their efforts? And no, the list isn't limited to Schobel/Kelsey. Do your own research and get back to us, ok?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[oak tree 12]

Dockery still took the money though didn't he? No problem taking the almighty dollars. Millions of them. That should have been motivation enough. However, it rarely is. Sad.

 

total bunch of BS if you ask me and a reason for hope in wash that he does not really stink because they need help on their o/line bad.

 

i could see it maybe being true for a few months but is anyone stupid enough to think it lingered for years and was the reason he sucked.

 

think of it man what a bunch of crap!

[GrudginglyOptimistic]

I find it amazing that all of the Bills OL decided simultaneously that they did not want to play in Buffalo - Peters, Dockery, Walker, etc

 

 

Let's review-

 

in 2007- Jim McNally is the OL coach

the bills bring in 2 highly paid free agents.

the OL as a whole performs better than at anytime over the previous 15 years.

Jason Peters makes the Pro bowl

 

in 2008, Kugler takes over as the OL coach.

Peters "regresses" and does not play up to his standard - his hold out is blamed, and he is traded in 2009

 

Dockery "regresses" significantly in 2008 and it is determined that his play does not justify his contract - he is cut outright in 2009

 

Fowler and Preston "regress" from servicable players to outright liabilities. The are cut at end of 2008.

 

In 2009- the Bills run Peters out of town and move Walker to LT without his prior knowledge knowing they will be running the no huddle.

 

2009- end of pre-season, Walker is deemed to have "regressed" badly and is cut outright. In a brilliant revelation, Kugler and staff realize Walker is overweight and poorly conditioned which severely hinders his play.

 

Since no healthy OL is available to play LT, the Bills re-sign Kirk Chambers who was cut the day before because his play had "regressed". However, he got better overnight and now qualifies as one of John Guy's tremendous free agent OL discoveries.

 

seems there is a lot of "regressing" under Kugler's watch.

 

Coincidence???

 

I think not

 

 

and the bills faithful expect Kugler to take 3 rookies, a cast off and a always injured OT playing out of position and turn then into a cohesive OL.

 

Better hope they all decide they don't want to play in Buffalo anymore

I think this is far more intelligent description of what happened than folks simply blaming this on the stupidity and poor football sense of John Guy. Another factoid to add into this mix is that the this year saw the OC who was responsible for the entire offense this OL monstrosity operated within got let go at an unprecedented point close to the season beginning.

 

Was this Guy's or Modrak's doing? Sure in part I would not be shocked if either had a key role in this, but the likelihood in my guess is that both probably heard about this in some meeting as a done deal which surprised even these insiders.

 

One needs to reasonably look up the food chain for a common thread to the failed OL, the failed Offense, and the failure of this team to be 0 for a decade in making the playoffs.

 

Though Jauron clearly deserves the lead blame as HC for the past three years of 7-9 mediocrity, the trail of tears also clearly starts in a time period which goes back to the hiring of TD/GW, actually back to the leaving of Butler, and on back to the canning of Polian during the glory days.

 

The common element is the team owner Mr. Ralph. He certainly deserves great praise for keeping the team here but right along with it clearly accurately deserves to be found at great fault for presiding over the mangling of a decade of Bills football which goes far beyond blaming GW, Marv. Modrak, Jauron, or whomever.

[Guest dog14787]

More BS resulting from not renegotiating with Peters. Do I really have to name all the players the Bills have renegotiated as a reward for their efforts? And no, the list isn't limited to Schobel/Kelsey. Do your own research and get back to us, ok?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Pinning my observations on Jason Peters is BS, he's the last player I had in mind. Why let go of a player like Winfield so early on in his promising career, a player many believe pound for pound is the hardest hitting player in the league. Or how about Greer, all he ever did was get better and better and better. Or How about one of the worse play calls in the history of the NFL ending a young QB's career that was drafted in the 1st round.

[GrudginglyOptimistic]

Marv hired Dick Jauron.

 

That's more blame in one decision than most will take in a lifetime.

And Ralph hired Marv after he

 

butchered the decision he made to hire TD

 

which came after he butchered the relationship with Butler leading to him leaving us high and dry

 

which came after he butchered the relationship with Polian who merits a bunch of praise for building the winner of the early 90s.

 

The amazing thing to me is that folks seem committed to wanting to either blame Marv for his errors in rebuilding the team in a GM role he was too old for,

 

or wanting to blame Jauron who has racked up an amazingly consistent 7-9 mediocre record which is totally consistent with his past levels of relative failed achievement as an HC,

 

or wanting to blame a consistently poor performing functionary like John Guy,

 

or whomever

 

when the obvious common thread in all of this is Mr. Ralph.

 

He is the only clear link to the entire 0 for a decade non-playoff run and clearly deserves blame far more than Jauron, Levy, TD. Butler, etc who simply were not here for a majority of these failures.

 

Ultimately, it was Mister Ralph who hired all these folks and signed their checks.

 

He merits great credit for keeping the Bills here when he could have moved for bigger bucks, but right along with this deserved credit comes the deserved blame for an 0 for a decade playoff performance.

 

Quite frankly this strikes me as a case closed response to any complaints about Jauron, Marv, Guy. Modrak, etc.

[rstencel]

Few, if any.

 

That's the reason why I don't tend to bash individual players like Whitner. He didn't draft himself, and certainly didn't devise his own defensive schemes. I wonder just how ANY player would fare on the Bills' roster. People lament the passing over of big guys, like Vince Wilfork for Lee Evans or Haloti Ngata for Whitner, but who's to say Wilfork or Ngata would be as effective in Buffalo w/ this coaching staff? I think that while both guys are talented and that can't be taken away from 'em, in terms of awareness and recognition, they'd be pretty much on their own, and that would hamper their development. In other words, I don't think either would be the player @ the level they're now @ if they had been drafted by the Bills. And I certainly don't think that the Bills would be a better team even w/ those guys, 'cause they still would be coached by the same guys.

 

Good point. Its the coaches job to put the players in a position to be successful, and the players job to execute. If the players are used properly, or not put in positions where their talents are best utilized, odds are good they wont be very successful.

[Wagon Circler]

Something you may find of interest:

http://www.oleantimesherald.com/articles/2...d2845581630.txt

Good article by the Pollack guy. Our GUY is no Pioli is he?