ACor58 Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 I have a weird feeling that in a year or two, after Jauron's probably gone, I'm going to end up coming down on Turk's side of this argument. I have to disagree. Like I said in an earlier post, just because an offense is complex does not mean that it is great or even good. Think about the Patriots. Everytime they run a screen pass to Faulk or a quick slant to Welker the defense knows that it is coming, hell, we all know that it is coming. The Patriots are just so good at exectuing the same plays over and over and adjusting when necessary. Unless there is a major disruption in the backfield (New York Giants Super Bowl) they cannot be stopped.
JB_55 Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 I'm still confused. Did our offense suck because Turk was doing what he wanted, or because he was doing a half-assed job of what Jauron wanted? PTR "you can get a good look at a butcher's a$$... wait... it's gotta be your bull..."
MRW Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 I have a weird feeling that in a year or two, after Jauron's probably gone, I'm going to end up coming down on Turk's side of this argument. I think I'm going to end up thinking they're both wrong. In fact, I think I'm there already. But I think in this scenario Turk is more wrong. If he really couldn't get behind what Jauron wanted, his responsibility was to resign. Otherwise, implement it, don't send signals to the players that it's acceptable to denigrate the members of the coaching staff.
Nervous Guy Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 Ah, so this is where it is. I did search, but the title threw me off. Sorry 'bout that.
Beerball Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 Ah, so this is where it is. I did search, but the title threw me off. Sorry 'bout that. Misleading thread titles are a big problem around here. Something should be done.
Nervous Guy Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 Misleading thread titles are a big problem around here. Something should be done. nice avatar
Beerball Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 nice avatar Let's go Buffalo! Always on the up & up, yes sir, that's me sir! speaking of avatars, how's Victor doing?
PDaDdy Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 Yes, that is what we are discussing in this thread. This may be true and it may not. Just because he backstabbed Jauron verbally does not mean he did not do what he was told. The fact they were of different philosophies is well established. What is unclear, uncertain, and concerning is who was actually winning out on game day. Now put this in your pipe: Schonert was fired 10 days before the start of the season and some of this stuff goes back to last year. If the OC was undermining the HC last year and during the string of horrific offensive play we all saw, why would the HC insist on keeping the OC and resist the owner that suggested the OC be dumped? Not only that, but Jauron didn't come to the decision to fire Schonert until most likely a day or less before it was carried out. Does any of that sound like a situation where the OC was blatantly not doing anything the HC asked of him and just trucking off doing his own thing? The fact is coaching staffs have disagreements. It is a pressure cooker business and tempers can fly out of control. Especially when things are going to crap. It could be taken either that Schonert was doing what Jauron told him to do and disagreed with it very strongly or it could be that Schonert was running his own "team" and ignoring Jauron or it could be a little of both. Well for one this point assumes that Turk has always been that insubordinate where as it was quite possibly an issue that continued to escalate. Your also forgetting the fact that THE PLAYERS actually went to Jauron to discuss the direction of the offense and express some concerns. It's quite possible they were getting mixed signals and perhaps started hearing Turk becoming all the more vocal about not being able to get his way. Upon hearing this Jaruon took action to get rid of the undermining force in his organization. True it's probable that he should have gotten rid of him when he got rid of Fairchild but we have the benefit of hind site.
K-9 Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 Turk is a Dick. There is a reason why Mike Martz is out of work. Ever watch New England or Indy's offense. There is nothing complex about them. They just execute very well. Even when the defense knows what is coming they still execute the plays. That is what makes a great offense. Turk was more concerned with showing everyone how smart that he was. Absolutely correct. It is no more complex than that. But I would point out that both Brady and Manning are great at reading defenses, both call their own plays, and both are extremely adept at audibling out of those plays when the situation warrants it. Much like Kelly back in the day, NE* and Indy run 8-10 plays out of various formations and DARE you to stop it. When you DO something to stop it, like blitz like crazy, they make you pay more often than not. We are just not there yet in terms of QB play and Oline play but I think we have the building blocks in place. GO BILLS!!!
SuperKillerRobots Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 It flies in the face of the theory that the offensive problems were entirely on Schonert and his offense. If Schonert was running Dick's system, then firing Schonert does not translate into a change in the offense but rather more of the same. And, if you can't find anything concerning about an offense that can't score, well, there is no point in further discussion. It sounded from the article that Turk was being told to run the offense a certain wa, but never actually ran it. If DJ kept telling him to make changes and he wasn't doing them or only doing them superficially, then he really isn't running DJ's system. Maybe DJ is an offensive genius that can't relate his vision to an OC or hasn't found one that could understand it.
PDaDdy Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 Absolutely correct. It is no more complex than that. But I would point out that both Brady and Manning are great at reading defenses, both call their own plays, and both are extremely adept at audibling out of those plays when the situation warrants it. Much like Kelly back in the day, NE* and Indy run 8-10 plays out of various formations and DARE you to stop it. When you DO something to stop it, like blitz like crazy, they make you pay more often than not. We are just not there yet in terms of QB play and Oline play but I think we have the building blocks in place. GO BILLS!!! What came first, the chicken or the egg? Perhaps they spent less time memorizing the play book and getting confused by multiple complex predictable formations and spent more time learning to read those defenses. They have two handfuls of plays that they know cold and the rest of the time is spent interpreting defenses and how to exploit them with the appropriate play. I'm not sure if this is actually the case but there are two ways to be successful on offense. One is you can dictate to the defense and force them into a look or coverage you want, another is to take advantage of what they give you. In a way the no huddle can actually give you both! With tempo management you can dictate to the defense how quickly they can substitute, if at all, limiting their personnel packages and therefore defenses called. With your offense lined up quickly you can see what coverage the defense is in and check to the appropriate play to take advantage of what they are giving you. Win win. Well.....that's what I hope. No more excuses for Trent for this season!!!! Let's see if the K.I.S.S. principal works for him.
Sisyphean Bills Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 It sounded from the article that Turk was being told to run the offense a certain wa, but never actually ran it. If DJ kept telling him to make changes and he wasn't doing them or only doing them superficially, then he really isn't running DJ's system. Maybe DJ is an offensive genius that can't relate his vision to an OC or hasn't found one that could understand it. Hope you are right. History of anecdotal evidence notwithstanding. Well for one this point assumes that Turk has always been that insubordinate where as it was quite possibly an issue that continued to escalate. What? In the meaningless Detroit game? [Edit: Frustration may have continued and escalated for both sides, but that doesn't prove insubordination and it would be strange that any coach would suddenly be grossly insubordinate in the most meaningless pre-season game.] Your also forgetting the fact that THE PLAYERS actually went to Jauron to discuss the direction of the offense and express some concerns. It's quite possible they were getting mixed signals and perhaps started hearing Turk becoming all the more vocal about not being able to get his way. Upon hearing this Jaruon took action to get rid of the undermining force in his organization. I don't believe there was an organized movement among the players. The players actually had slack jawed disbelief at the announcement. True it's probable that he should have gotten rid of him when he got rid of Fairchild but we have the benefit of hind site. Yes, most people here subscribed to the slogan, "Fairchild is the real problem." Add Schonert to the list with Crowton and Shoop. As the merry-go-round spins...
vincec Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 Turk is a Dick. There is a reason why Mike Martz is out of work. Ever watch New England or Indy's offense. There is nothing complex about them. They just execute very well. Even when the defense knows what is coming they still execute the plays. That is what makes a great offense. Turk was more concerned with showing everyone how smart that he was. I wouldn't compare Schoenert to Mike Martz. Martz has been VERY successful as an offensive coordinator in this league, including winning a Super Bowl as the OC of the Rams. You might not like his philosophy (as Mike Singletary apparently didn't), but you can't argue with the production.
PDaDdy Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 Hope you are right. History of anecdotal evidence notwithstanding. What? In the meaningless Detroit game? [Edit: Frustration may have continued and escalated for both sides, but that doesn't prove insubordination and it would be strange that any coach would suddenly be grossly insubordinate in the most meaningless pre-season game.] Who said anything about "grossly insubordinate" insubordination is basically not doing what your boss asks of you. Turk Schonert = guilty. Jauron put up with some of it but apparently their were limits to the friction caused by how vocal Turk perhaps became about their philosophical differences I don't believe there was an organized movement among the players. The players actually had slack jawed disbelief at the announcement. Who said anything about organized? Whether organized or not individual offensive players including but not limited to Lee Evans and Trent Edwards went to Jauron to express their concerns regarding the offense's lack of production. I also don't see how their shock of his release is inconsistent with their displeasure with the offensive production. I am actually not surprised that they were surprised that Jauron actually did something about it.
Steely Dan Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 I hadn't read that. Man, that is something else. I am simultaneously happy that Turk is gone, and pissed that he was put in this position in the first place. When he was hired I was underwhelmed. He is probably the most overrated QB coach in the league. I've never understood the love for that guy. I was hoping he'd be a better OC but obviously that never happened. If what Turk was doing was not what Jauron wanted....well, it didn't work too well, did it? PTR Exactly. Absolutely correct. It is no more complex than that. But I would point out that both Brady and Manning are great at reading defenses, both call their own plays, and both are extremely adept at audibling out of those plays when the situation warrants it. Much like Kelly back in the day, NE* and Indy run 8-10 plays out of various formations and DARE you to stop it. When you DO something to stop it, like blitz like crazy, they make you pay more often than not. We are just not there yet in terms of QB play and Oline play but I think we have the building blocks in place. GO BILLS!!! IIRC, Jauron wanted him to simplify the offense. I can imagine that too many complex plays isn't good for a young QB. As you said some great offenses just simplify things and hopefully that will work for Buffalo. (fingers crossed)
stuckincincy Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 ...the backstabbers, backstabbers: http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/...schonert-firing Okay, I'll play... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXObWIMX8sY
Steely Dan Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 Okay, I'll play... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXObWIMX8sY Or this one.
Sisyphean Bills Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 Who said anything about "grossly insubordinate" insubordination is basically not doing what your boss asks of you. Turk Schonert = guilty. Jauron put up with some of it but apparently their were limits to the friction caused by how vocal Turk perhaps became about their philosophical differences There is a difference between griping and bitching about one's boss and actively undermining and ignoring the decisions that have been made. Griping about the boss is so common, one would have to live in a cave to have never experienced first hand. The accusations made in the Graham article suggest Schonert was bitching about the boss to his players. That is stupid, yes. I've never said or implied anything different. But, it doesn't mean that he was actively sabotaging and ignoring the decisions that were made by the boss. Unless the boss is witless, such actions would be readily apparent. Furthermore, it wouldn't take players to discover it. There are other offensive coaches and coaches meetings, so unless everyone isn't paying any attention, they would know that Turk was ignoring what was said in meetings and installing his own wild sh--. Who said anything about organized? Whether organized or not individual offensive players including but not limited to Lee Evans and Trent Edwards went to Jauron to express their concerns regarding the offense's lack of production. I also don't see how their shock of his release is inconsistent with their displeasure with the offensive production. I am actually not surprised that they were surprised that Jauron actually did something about it. You implied it when you said, "THE PLAYERS actually went to Jauron". "THE PLAYERS" implies that it was a group. I've read nothing that suggests that. Otherwise, so what? A player went and talked to a coach about football. That happens every day. Big deal.
Geno Smith's Arm Posted September 10, 2009 Posted September 10, 2009 I have a weird feeling that in a year or two, after Jauron's probably gone, I'm going to end up coming down on Turk's side of this argument. I have been thinking that as well. We all have seen how inept Jauron is, if you were a first time OC and your inept boss kept changing your offense and it sucked, what would you do? From the way I have have seen it told, it seems like he was open about his feelings for Jauron's changes as opposed to being a "backstabber". Maybe this is a front stabber? I'm not really sure any of the fans can judge what really happened, but I know this. Turk may or may not have been out of line, but without a doubt Jauron is not a good coach.
Tcali Posted September 10, 2009 Posted September 10, 2009 ...the backstabbers, backstabbers: http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/...schonert-firing I think Schonert looked excellent until Trent got that concussion. The OC is only as good as his QB.-And his HC. Somehow I feel Schonert will be exonerated when he OCs a superbowl champion. It aint as simple as some think.
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