Offense: Unstable foundation forced simplification?

[GrudginglyOptimistic]

The situation sounds like a completely lubricated cluster. The OC wanted to run his own offense and the HC wanted a different offense. The HC kept having to change and limit what the OC wanted to do. The OC says he tried to simply things but could never get it simple enough to suit the HC. Is the problem wanting it complex? Or is the problem removing sets, formations, and plays from the offense? Does it even matter? The result was a ridiculously conservative offense that played it safe above all else, limited mistakes, couldn't score, and couldn't get first downs. It's quite possible that neither Turk's system nor Jauron's philosophy were the problem, but trying to blend the two diametrically opposed approaches was a disaster.

 

At any rate, we will find out quite a bit about what a Dick Jauron offense is all about soon enough.

Fish rot from the head down.

 

There is one common denominator to the question of who hired (then fired) Polian, then hired (and screwed up the relationship with) Butler. then hired out of desperation (and then fired) TD, hired out of desperation Levy (at least he did not can him) and then oversaw the creation of the Brandon led FO.

 

Who also signed the contracts (and then fired) Wade, GW, Mularkey, and now Jauron who many find to be a horror who just got extended by someone.

 

All the caterwhauling about Jauron really strikes me as whing because it simply is not Jauron's fault at all for starting the decadeless playoffs.

 

What is it if Jauron is canned that makes folks feel that the problems will be solved or that we will do something different?

[billybob]

Personally I don't want 20 formations I want to be able to run 20 plays out of 1 formation that looks the same all the time- and that the Oline doesn't give away the play with hand or foot placement or other tells- the last 5 years at least I've been able to tell 95% of the time if it is a run or a pass.

[John from Riverside]

One of the things I am going to be interested in seeing is how this affects the O Line's run blocking.......

 

To me that has been absolutely mind boggleing how we have been getting no push on the interior when we got meaner and tougher from Guard to Guard.......I have been developing a theory that tentative attitude is causing the O Line to not fire out and win their individual matchups causing there to be NO room to run for the RB's.

 

This spills over into other problems.....lack of running game means no chance of play action fakes......stifling the offense.......which spills over onto the defense because they are on the field WAAAAY more then a normal defense would be wearing them out.

 

We have to be able to run the ball....We HAVE TO BE ABLE TO RUN THE BALL

[reddogblitz]

My take on this is that Turk wanted to open it up and Dick wanted a conservative, ball control, short passing, team that makes the fewest mistakes wins offense.

 

Look at last year. Against Seattle and up until about half way through the season, the offense WAS wide open. We scored points. Remember against Seattle they fumbled a kick and we took over on the 30? Next play Trent thows a TD to a reciever in the EZ. Then we opened a big lead in the division and Dick tells Turk to cool it. We gotta protect our lead. Why did we go so conservative in the second half of the season? Was it Dick's call or Turk's? Toss in Trent's meltdown vs. the Clowns and subsequent injuries and Turk's wide open offense had no chance.

 

Not defending Turk. Ulitamately he's second most responsible for the Offense's in-effectiveness behind Dick.

 

But really, I think one of the Bill's biggest problems on offense is the stupid play calling when we get close. Hand offs and fades which don't work very often. You gotta be a little more creative than that. It's hard to score in the NFL. It really is.

[thewildrabbit]

Two rookies on the O line, a new center and completely rebuilt line and the OC wants complex plays, formations and protections.

 

All I did most of last year was complain about Turk "shotgun" Schonert and how he would keep calling 5-7 step drop passing plays with a 2nd string QB in the game and the opposing defense dropping into dime coverages. He was going to force the plays to work no matter what.

 

The guy was a moron and the Bills are so much better off without him.

[GrudginglyOptimistic]

My take on this is that Turk wanted to open it up and Dick wanted a conservative, ball control, short passing, team that makes the fewest mistakes wins offense.

 

Look at last year. Against Seattle and up until about half way through the season, the offense WAS wide open. We scored points. Remember against Seattle they fumbled a kick and we took over on the 30? Next play Trent thows a TD to a reciever in the EZ. Then we opened a big lead in the division and Dick tells Turk to cool it. We gotta protect our lead. Why did we go so conservative in the second half of the season? Was it Dick's call or Turk's? Toss in Trent's meltdown vs. the Clowns and subsequent injuries and Turk's wide open offense had no chance.

 

Not defending Turk. Ulitamately he's second most responsible for the Offense's in-effectiveness behind Dick.

 

But really, I think one of the Bill's biggest problems on offense is the stupid play calling when we get close. Hand offs and fades which don't work very often. You gotta be a little more creative than that. It's hard to score in the NFL. It really is.

Outside of general dislike tor Jauron is there any specific reasons to lay the blame for the ineffective O on DJ rather than Turk?

 

I do not think so.

 

Even in the example you site the big difference here between the aggressive go for it O in this example and the team's lack of offensive aggression would actually seem to be the turnover which put the Bills deep in the Seattle side of the field,

[Bill from NYC]

I know I'm still relatively new to OBD but I don't get how so many people on here hate, or think so poorly of Levy. It really doesn't make much sense. Is it because he never won the big one and got outcoached by Parcells, Jimmy Johnson and Joe Gibbs? Because if thats the case, he's still one of the top coaches to ever play those games. I'd certainly put those 3 ahead of him all time, and thus, losing to them seems somewhat understandable.

 

To go a step further, he was part of the reason Bill Polian was ever even discovered. For nothing else, he deserves credit for the start that the best modern day GM had into the NFL, not to mention the coaches and players from under him that are working in and around the league.

 

I agree Marv is not Landy, Lombardi, Gibbs or Parcells. He's probably not even one of the top 10 or 15 HCs of all time. But he is a HOF coach, and deservedly so. I think everyone here, regardless of their view, should acknowledge as much of him. Whether Saban was better or not, I have no idea, I'm only 28. But from an NFL wide perspective of the past 25 years, there aren't many coaches that have his track record.... and if you say it was the players, well last I checkd, he had an impact of most of those guys getting drafted outside of Kelly. And say what you will, but Kelly isn't even a top 10 QB of the past 25 years, so you can't say we won just beacuse he came from the USFL...

 

I think that you miss the point.

 

Levy was a good coach. He did as fantastic job of keeping all the big egos in check at Buffalo, and getting a team to 4 straight superbowls might never happen again.

That said, he was 81 or so when Ralph brought him in to be GM, which was never his thing. I make the case that given the circumstances, he was ill suited for this position. And although not all of his moves were bad, he did hire Jauron, sign terrible ufas, and he screwed up the 2006 draft. These things are hard to recover from as you can see.

 

In summary, it isn't about hating Marv, who does seem to be a very nice man. To me it's about an ill advised move by Mr. Wilson.

[Thurman#1]

I especially agree on Levy being a very poor judge of coaching horseflesh. I would make the case that Marchibroda (sp) solely made the Levy regrime look good and his choice and availability to Marv must have been luck.

 

 

First, four years in a row isn't luck.

 

Second, sure, Marchibroda was good, but regardless of whether or not his availability was luck, who hired him? Marv did. That's not luck, that's an excellent choice. There were plenty of lousy choices available at the same time.

[Thurman#1]

Wade Phillips

 

What you miss is that success breeds success. The Bills had coaches and front office people placed around the league during the Polian / Levy era. They have not since because who wants coaches from a mediocre (at best) franchise? The other underlying issue is that RW does not highly compensate coaches. Theefore he will not attract "hot pick" coaches to Buffalo.

 

 

A.J. Smith? John Butler? Do those names sound familiar?

 

Marchibroda left the Bills for the head coach job with the Colts, which he held from 1992 - 1995, and then went to the Ravens where he was head coach from 1996 - 1998. Three of his assistant coaches were Belichick, Mangini and Kirk Ferentz.

 

Yeah, they really held their time with the Bills against Smith, Butler and Marchibroda

 

Thanks for all the research you did before posting.

[Thurman#1]

Fish rot from the head down.

 

 

 

They don't, actually. As is often true of over-simplified proverbs, this is wrong.

 

Do fish rot from the head down?

 

"Not according to David Groman, a fish pathologist at Atlantic Veterinary College, which is part of the University of Prince Edward Island, in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island. Groman may not be the Quincy of fish (he's not a forensic fish pathologist), but he does make it his business to know how and why fish die. Which means that he knows how and why fish rot.

 

"Groman found time between his fish autopsies to comment on the rotting-fish metaphor. 'I don't know where that proverb comes from," says Gromon. "But it's a poor metaphor. And, I must say, it's biologically incorrect. When a fish rots, the organs in the gut go first. If you can't tell that a fish is rotting by the smell of it, you'll sure know when you cut it open and everything pours out -- when all the internal tissue loses its integrity and turns into liquid.'"

 

"Having learned about dead fish, the CDU next went looking for information about fresh fish: The call went to Richard Yokoyama, manager of Seattle's famous Pike Place Fish Market, which has been in operation since 1930. 'Before I buy a fish from one of our dealers, I always look at the belly,' says Yokoyama. "On a fish, that's the first thing to go. That's where all the action is -- in the gut. If the belly is brown and the bones are breaking through the skin, I toss the fish out. It's rotten.'"

 

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/25/cdu.html

 

And you know what? Not all problems in organizations come from the head guy either. Basically, every problem is different. The head guy is the problem ... sometimes.

[Sisyphean Bills]

What is it if Jauron is canned that makes folks feel that the problems will be solved or that we will do something different?

You are asking this after what happened last Friday and Saturday? The answer is what I've been saying for 3+ years: leadership. Whether you think the firing of Schonert was 100% Wilson's idea or not, the timing of the move is pure panic and shows a lack of sound and decisive leadership any way one slices it. Jauron either caved to management pressure rather than fight for his guy and something he was committed to implementing; or, he failed in spades to identify the right OC and protracted a lousy working relationship all the way to the brink of the start of the season even after the dismal proof of last season that it was failing to produce, which gives him and the team no time and no way to rethink the approach or hire someone with any experience. This is an epic leadership failure, and a very public display that the Bills are in disarray.

 

"If the head [coach] is not in charge, then you have nothing but chaos and nothing good can come out of a situation like that," Marty Schottenheimer.

 

Outside of general dislike tor Jauron is there any specific reasons to lay the blame for the ineffective O on DJ rather than Turk?

 

I do not think so.

 

Turk said very clearly that Jauron would not let him run the offense he wanted to run. "He limited the formations. He limited the plays." The same course was taken by Fairchild's offense, starting out as one thing and then it all went into a shell complete with training wheels and couldn't get defenses out of the box.

[GrudginglyOptimistic]

Turk said very clearly that Jauron would not let him run the offense he wanted to run. "He limited the formations. He limited the plays." The same course was taken by Fairchild's offense, starting out as one thing and then it all went into a shell and couldn't get defenses out of the box.

DJ deserves a big part of the blame either way in that he either muzzled a good one in Turk or he hired a guy not capable of doing the job. I do not disagree that DJ is worthy of blame, I also disagree with anyone who wants to let Turk escape blame for this debacle.

 

In our history one need only look back at Marchibroda for a perfect example of an OC and HC who were oil and water but the team proved to be successful anyway. Even if it is not reasonable to hold Turk to this lofty standard, the team saw little even hint of consistent success under his term.

 

His results do not make a good case at all to believe his self-serving interpretation of why HE & Jauron failed.

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

I was talking about after 06. Wade is clearly superior to Jauron, and is one of the best defensive minds in football.

 

Really? What metric is that statement based upon? Who has been head coach of a playoff team more recently? DJ. Who had the supposed "most talented team in the league" but failed to make the playoffs? WP. Who had arguably the least talented team in the league and posted a vastly overachieving 7-9 record? DJ. Who has lost more playoff games as head coach of the Bills? Exactly.

[tennesseeboy]

Excellent post. Clearly none of us (now that Skooby has left to terrorize others)has insight into what really went on at OBD. However, Turk's outburst through the local media shows that he is anything but a team guy. His calling out of DJ was without class (not defending DJ - just saying Turk's statements were not appropriate to share with the public).

 

I believe it is also telling that not one player has come forward to object to the action taken. Evans expressed surprise but that is all. My guess is that they really did not like the guy.

A bad offensive line forced oversimplification. A colt style offense is fine but first you have to be able to execute and we haven't executed the simplest iteration of that offense because we can't pass block. It is time to become simpler and send in reinforcements to help what pretty much everyone sees is a bad offensive line.

 

Don't get me wrong. three rookies and everyone in new positions may be WHY the ine is bad and later in the season it may get much better. However we are insane to go into the season expecting this line to perform adequately. two tight ends or a good blocking fullback are going to be essential if we are going to be able to include a vertical passing game into the mix.

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

You are asking this after what happened last Friday and Saturday? The answer is what I've been saying for 3+ years: leadership. Whether you think the firing of Schonert was 100% Wilson's idea or not, the timing of the move is pure panic and shows a lack of sound and decisive leadership any way one slices it. Jauron either caved to management pressure rather than fight for his guy and something he was committed to implementing; or, he failed in spades to identify the right OC and protracted a lousy working relationship all the way to the brink of the start of the season even after the dismal proof of last season that it was failing to produce, which gives him and the team no time and no way to rethink the approach or hire someone with any experience. This is an epic leadership failure, and a very public display that the Bills are in disarray.

 

"If the head [coach] is not in charge, then you have nothing but chaos and nothing good can come out of a situation like that," Marty Schottenheimer.

 

 

 

Turk said very clearly that Jauron would not let him run the offense he wanted to run. "He limited the formations. He limited the plays." The same course was taken by Fairchild's offense, starting out as one thing and then it all went into a shell complete with training wheels and couldn't get defenses out of the box.

 

With the weaponry the Bills have it shouldn't require a complicated system to be effective. Run a simple pass play and someone has to be open. It is that simple. Why make it more complex than it needs to be? Doesn't make any sense. Last year, when we were starved for talent and couldn't create mismatches to exploit, then yea, we should try to confuse the defense. But when few teams in the league are going to be able to match up at the skill positions, why not just shove our simple offense right down their throats? I mean it is pick your poison: Play 8 in the box to stop the run, give up big plays deep. Play 7 in the box to prevent the big play, get run all over. Double team T.O. and Lee burns you, double team Lee and T.O. burns you.

 

Why would any OC in the NFL want to complicate this? It doesn't make any sense and really I have to think DJ made this decision flat out because Schonert pissed him off, not because of pressure or lack of fortitude to do it sooner or anything. They got into an argument, Schonert said the wrong thing, and Jauron told him to hit the bricks on the spot.

[Sisyphean Bills]

With the weaponry the Bills have it shouldn't require a complicated system to be effective. Run a simple pass play and someone has to be open. It is that simple. Why make it more complex than it needs to be? Doesn't make any sense. Last year, when we were starved for talent and couldn't create mismatches to exploit, then yea, we should try to confuse the defense. But when few teams in the league are going to be able to match up at the skill positions, why not just shove our simple offense right down their throats? I mean it is pick your poison: Play 8 in the box to stop the run, give up big plays deep. Play 7 in the box to prevent the big play, get run all over. Double team T.O. and Lee burns you, double team Lee and T.O. burns you.

 

Why would any OC in the NFL want to complicate this? It doesn't make any sense and really I have to think DJ made this decision flat out because Schonert pissed him off, not because of pressure or lack of fortitude to do it sooner or anything. They got into an argument, Schonert said the wrong thing, and Jauron told him to hit the bricks on the spot.

Dude, take a breath. I don't think Mr. Wilson pulled strings to fire Schonert and have argued the exact opposite for days.

[ricojes]

Maybe Jauron thought the offense should be simplified until sufficient execution could be proven as a foundation or stable base from which to systematically layer in additional complexities?? and Turk maybe wanted to add complexity on a week foundation which obviously wont be successful? It's possible Turk's system would work with his talent, but he wasn't a good enough teacher to get his schemes installed or the repetitions were lacking to get the synronization and execution where it needed to be to be successful.

 

Either way, since jauron has a defensive background, how did he not know when he is looking at an offense that sucks and cant execute? From a defensive standpoint he studied offenses his whole life and as a player played defense in the NFL! How do you not figure this out until now one week before the start of the season when you're there at practice everyday? He must be clueless. The incompetency is mindboggling.

I think it makes sense to simplify if there were too many mistakes being made. It makes sense if the WR's are running wrong routes, O Line not getting the blocking schemes correct, or the offense just not being on the same page. What doesn't make sense is the timing. This isn't anything new, Turk did not change over night. If it was too complicated and Turk wasn't willing to budge then get rid of him, but do it in the off-season! I like AVP as OC, but he is stuck with Turk's formations and his hands are tied to a certain extent. Not saying it's impossible to overcome, but he could take a whipping in the media for an offense that isn't truly his...

[reddogblitz]

Outside of general dislike tor Jauron is there any specific reasons to lay the blame for the ineffective O on DJ rather than Turk?

 

I do not think so.

 

Even in the example you site the big difference here between the aggressive go for it O in this example and the team's lack of offensive aggression would actually seem to be the turnover which put the Bills deep in the Seattle side of the field,

 

Who said I don't like Dick Jauron?

 

I base my opinion on several things. The going conservative offense started at the same time as the defensive stopped their aggressive blitzing style and went back to the keep everything in front of you bend but don't break defense. Remember the blitz on Phillip Rivers resulting in the K. Mitcell pick sealing the win in Dan Diego? Again, my speculation is that Dick called off the dogs. We're way ahead in the division, we need to play it safe. Team that makes the fewest mistakes wins. Both offense and defense changed style around week 8.

 

As far as the Seattle game, that was only one example. There was also a long pass to Lee on the sidelines gaining 40 yards or so. I still maintain that throwing the 30 yard pass into the EZ on 1st down is an aggressive side we didn't see at all in the second half of the season even though we had similar opportunities.

 

Turk has responsibility for the O's demise, but Dick has more. He is the HC after all.

[Robert Paulson]

You are asking this after what happened last Friday and Saturday? The answer is what I've been saying for 3+ years: leadership. Whether you think the firing of Schonert was 100% Wilson's idea or not, the timing of the move is pure panic and shows a lack of sound and decisive leadership any way one slices it. Jauron either caved to management pressure rather than fight for his guy and something he was committed to implementing; or, he failed in spades to identify the right OC and protracted a lousy working relationship all the way to the brink of the start of the season even after the dismal proof of last season that it was failing to produce, which gives him and the team no time and no way to rethink the approach or hire someone with any experience. This is an epic leadership failure, and a very public display that the Bills are in disarray.

 

"If the head [coach] is not in charge, then you have nothing but chaos and nothing good can come out of a situation like that," Marty Schottenheimer.

 

 

 

Turk said very clearly that Jauron would not let him run the offense he wanted to run. "He limited the formations. He limited the plays." The same course was taken by Fairchild's offense, starting out as one thing and then it all went into a shell complete with training wheels and couldn't get defenses out of the box.

limiting the formations is good- a casual fan could tell last year what play would be run just by the personnel group and formation- if we could tell why wouldn't the opposing D be able to tell

 

being able to run multiple plays out of a few base sets is one of the keys of keeping Defenses off guard

[Sisyphean Bills]

limiting the formations is good- a casual fan could tell last year what play would be run just by the personnel group and formation- if we could tell why wouldn't the opposing D be able to tell

 

being able to run multiple plays out of a few base sets is one of the keys of keeping Defenses off guard

I'm not sure what you are saying. Formations are not the same as packages. And, you are right that the limited number of plays, packages, and formations that we used telegraphed the offense's intent to the defense to the point that fans knew what was coming. Why is that "good" though?

 

People are jumping to the conclusion here that Schonert ran a complex offense with all sorts of wrinkles and razzle dazzle, but did anyone actually see this offense on the field? Schonert may have coached a ridiculously complex offense, but on the field in the games, his play calling was simple enough that drunk fans were calling the plays before the snap. So, which one was it?

 

I don't disagree with your last statement, btw. The classic West Coast offense was designed so that all the plays could be run out of the same personnel set and formation. That seemed to work OK.