Pitta Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 Maybe Jauron thought the offense should be simplified until sufficient execution could be proven as a foundation or stable base from which to systematically layer in additional complexities?? and Turk maybe wanted to add complexity on a week foundation which obviously wont be successful? It's possible Turk's system would work with his talent, but he wasn't a good enough teacher to get his schemes installed or the repetitions were lacking to get the synronization and execution where it needed to be to be successful. Either way, since jauron has a defensive background, how did he not know when he is looking at an offense that sucks and cant execute? From a defensive standpoint he studied offenses his whole life and as a player played defense in the NFL! How do you not figure this out until now one week before the start of the season when you're there at practice everyday? He must be clueless. The incompetency is mindboggling.
nodnarb Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 From what I've taken of it, the original intent was to keep it Colt-simple. Have about a dozen plays that you execute very well, and error-free. Use different formations to disguise them, and go play. That's simple. If Turk wants to call that "Pop Warner" in a feeble attempt to save face, fine. But the more you think about it all, and the more you hear the players talk, the clearer the picture becomes. Turk was not listening, and he let his ambition steer the offense, rather than the team-focused design of the offense. The no-huddle doesn't work unless you can execute your plays consistently. That requires simplicity, especially in the first year. Turk wanted both, and the result was horrific.
BuffaloBill Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 From what I've taken of it, the original intent was to keep it Colt-simple. Have about a dozen plays that you execute very well, and error-free. Use different formations to disguise them, and go play. That's simple. If Turk wants to call that "Pop Warner" in a feeble attempt to save face, fine. But the more you think about it all, and the more you hear the players talk, the clearer the picture becomes. Turk was not listening, and he let his ambition steer the offense, rather than the team-focused design of the offense. The no-huddle doesn't work unless you can execute your plays consistently. That requires simplicity, especially in the first year. Turk wanted both, and the result was horrific. Excellent post. Clearly none of us (now that Skooby has left to terrorize others)has insight into what really went on at OBD. However, Turk's outburst through the local media shows that he is anything but a team guy. His calling out of DJ was without class (not defending DJ - just saying Turk's statements were not appropriate to share with the public). I believe it is also telling that not one player has come forward to object to the action taken. Evans expressed surprise but that is all. My guess is that they really did not like the guy.
Special K Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 Either way, since jauron has a defensive background, how did he not know when he is looking at an offense that sucks and cant execute? From a defensive standpoint he studied offenses his whole life and as a player played defense in the NFL! How do you not figure this out until now one week before the start of the season when you're there at practice everyday? He must be clueless. The incompetency is mindboggling. In Turk's little rant, he also said that Jauron was on his back all off-season...sounds like DJ was aware of the offense's suckitude......not a DJ supporter or anything, but Turk's comments just sound like "sour grapes" to me.
TheChimp Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 How do you not figure this out until now one week before the start of the season when you're there at practice everyday? He must be clueless. The incompetency is mindboggling. I just finished reading that CBS Sports article by that Ratta guy, and he summed it up perfectly. Most of the article was admonishing Turk for his stupid way of voicing his opinions and how he basically ruined his own future in the NFL because of his comments. But this part of the article is my favorite: "......On the grander scale, coaches canning offensive coordinators this close to showtime is a bad and cowardly idea, as it shows (a) that the head coach is under fire from up the know-littles and cowards upstairs and doesn't have the stones to stand up for his guy, (b) that the head coach wasn't paying attention and/or [c) needs a scapegoat. In all cases, it is a sign of weakness that players understand and use when things go bad to deflect blame from their own failings. You start that circle, you go 4-12, and everyone's out the door......" http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/12171445
AJ1 Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 I just finished reading that CBS Sports article by that Ratta guy, and he summed it up perfectly. Most of the article was admonishing Turk for his stupid way of voicing his opinions and how he basically ruined his own future in the NFL because of his comments. But this part of the article is my favorite: "......On the grander scale, coaches canning offensive coordinators this close to showtime is a bad and cowardly idea, as it shows (a) that the head coach is under fire from up the know-littles and cowards upstairs and doesn't have the stones to stand up for his guy, (b) that the head coach wasn't paying attention and/or [c) needs a scapegoat. In all cases, it is a sign of weakness that players understand and use when things go bad to deflect blame from their own failings. You start that circle, you go 4-12, and everyone's out the door......" But the next paragraph expresses the heart of the matter. But Schonert's case is different because it sounds mostly like he and Jauron couldn't agree on Jauron's offense, and that last adjective is the key. "Jauron's." This isn't even a matter of who knows more about offense, because we assume Schonert is the better versed of the two. It's about who has the say, and in no NFL operation, not even in Dallas, do the assistants dictate terms to the head coach
transient Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 I just finished reading that CBS Sports article by that Ratta guy, and he summed it up perfectly. Most of the article was admonishing Turk for his stupid way of voicing his opinions and how he basically ruined his own future in the NFL because of his comments. But this part of the article is my favorite: "......On the grander scale, coaches canning offensive coordinators this close to showtime is a bad and cowardly idea, as it shows (a) that the head coach is under fire from up the know-littles and cowards upstairs and doesn't have the stones to stand up for his guy, (b) that the head coach wasn't paying attention and/or [c) needs a scapegoat. In all cases, it is a sign of weakness that players understand and use when things go bad to deflect blame from their own failings. You start that circle, you go 4-12, and everyone's out the door......" http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/12171445 It may be your favorite, but don't take it out of context as he goes on to say, rightly so, that "Schonert's case is different because it sounds mostly like he and Jauron couldn't agree on Jauron's offense, and that last adjective is the key. "Jauron's." This isn't even a matter of who knows more about offense, because we assume Schonert is the better versed of the two. It's about who has the say, and in no NFL operation, not even in Dallas, do the assistants dictate terms to the head coach." This is also why I think that it was DJ's call on the firing, and not RW as some seem to think. Edit: Slow typer, AJ1 beat me to it!
GrudginglyOptimistic Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 Maybe Jauron thought the offense should be simplified until sufficient execution could be proven as a foundation or stable base from which to systematically layer in additional complexities?? and Turk maybe wanted to add complexity on a week foundation which obviously wont be successful? It's possible Turk's system would work with his talent, but he wasn't a good enough teacher to get his schemes installed or the repetitions were lacking to get the synronization and execution where it needed to be to be successful. Either way, since jauron has a defensive background, how did he not know when he is looking at an offense that sucks and cant execute? From a defensive standpoint he studied offenses his whole life and as a player played defense in the NFL! How do you not figure this out until now one week before the start of the season when you're there at practice everyday? He must be clueless. The incompetency is mindboggling. I find your analysis on what they were trying to do a bit simplistic as you seem to boil it down to it either being one way or the other way. I think reality is a bit more complex than it being a simple case of one or the other option. Fir example, it struck me that the problem here probably was not a lack of talent, but a general difference in offensive philosophy for running a no-huddle based attack. Turk seemed to want to run his plays out a particular offensive set and thus to run multiple types of plays a team needed multiple offensive sets. The problem with this approach which my sense was Jauron wanted to simplify is that he wanted the Bills to be able to run different plays from the same offensive set. If not, then the set the Bills chose wouldtip off the opposition to what play they were going to run. The no-huddle when it ran well under Kelly was a pretty simple set-up. The Bills would line up the same way virtually each time, but they might go with a run or a pass from the same set. The WR or the RB might be going deep or might be cutting off the route from the same set. The defender had to read the individual player but the Bills had talent in a number of areas that if the D bit on one fake or had one misread then someone was going to be open for a TD or big gain. My sense is that you are right that limitations in Turks teaching ability and his ability to take input were big factors in this not working out, but my guess is that Jauron was getting pressure from Ralph to do something to make it work and Turk did not show the ability to make any progress or to make it look different enough that he was at least trying and it was an interpersonal breakdown rather some inability to see what was happening which did Turk in. Your explanation seems a bit too simplistic.
TheChimp Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 I quoted THAT paragraph because it states a point not being talked about by anyone, except the person whose post I tagged with my comment, and that is, Jauron waiting as long as he did to make the decision only goes to show that he's a terrible head coach who either can't make his own decisions or doesn't know WTF is even going on, and both are bad for players who need toughness instilled in them, not excuses.
oak tree 12 Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 Maybe Jauron thought the offense should be simplified until sufficient execution could be proven as a foundation or stable base from which to systematically layer in additional complexities?? and Turk maybe wanted to add complexity on a week foundation which obviously wont be successful? It's possible Turk's system would work with his talent, but he wasn't a good enough teacher to get his schemes installed or the repetitions were lacking to get the synronization and execution where it needed to be to be successful. Either way, since jauron has a defensive background, how did he not know when he is looking at an offense that sucks and cant execute? From a defensive standpoint he studied offenses his whole life and as a player played defense in the NFL! How do you not figure this out until now one week before the start of the season when you're there at practice everyday? He must be clueless. The incompetency is mindboggling. your thought process is mind boggling. players were going to DJ and voicing concerns about Turk. secondly Turks comments after getting fired probably cost him a career in the NFL!
Bill from NYC Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 Maybe Jauron thought the offense should be simplified until sufficient execution could be proven as a foundation or stable base from which to systematically layer in additional complexities?? and Turk maybe wanted to add complexity on a week foundation which obviously wont be successful? It's possible Turk's system would work with his talent, but he wasn't a good enough teacher to get his schemes installed or the repetitions were lacking to get the synronization and execution where it needed to be to be successful. Either way, since jauron has a defensive background, how did he not know when he is looking at an offense that sucks and cant execute? From a defensive standpoint he studied offenses his whole life and as a player played defense in the NFL! How do you not figure this out until now one week before the start of the season when you're there at practice everyday? He must be clueless. The incompetency is mindboggling. Starting wth, and including Levy in 06, this team has been managed and coached by people that no other franchise would possibly want. April and McNally are certainly exceptions, but who else?
AJ1 Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 Starting wth, and including Levy in 06, this team has been managed and coached by people that no other franchise would possibly want. April and McNally are certainly exceptions, but who else? I especially agree on Levy being a very poor judge of coaching horseflesh. I would make the case that Marchibroda (sp) solely made the Levy regrime look good and his choice and availability to Marv must have been luck.
TheChimp Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 I especially agree on Levy being a very poor judge of coaching horseflesh. I would make the case that Marchibroda (sp) solely made the Levy regrime look good and his choice and availability to Marv must have been luck. YUP
Bill from NYC Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 I especially agree on Levy being a very poor judge of coaching horseflesh. I would make the case that Marchibroda (sp) solely made the Levy regrime look good and his choice and availability to Marv must have been luck. Tread lightly. Levy has a fanatical cadre on this board. I happen to like him as a person but not as a football man and I have got raked over the coals for this.
Sisyphean Bills Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 I find your analysis on what they were trying to do a bit simplistic as you seem to boil it down to it either being one way or the other way. I think reality is a bit more complex than it being a simple case of one or the other option. Fir example, it struck me that the problem here probably was not a lack of talent, but a general difference in offensive philosophy for running a no-huddle based attack. Turk seemed to want to run his plays out a particular offensive set and thus to run multiple types of plays a team needed multiple offensive sets. The problem with this approach which my sense was Jauron wanted to simplify is that he wanted the Bills to be able to run different plays from the same offensive set. If not, then the set the Bills chose wouldtip off the opposition to what play they were going to run. The no-huddle when it ran well under Kelly was a pretty simple set-up. The Bills would line up the same way virtually each time, but they might go with a run or a pass from the same set. The WR or the RB might be going deep or might be cutting off the route from the same set. The defender had to read the individual player but the Bills had talent in a number of areas that if the D bit on one fake or had one misread then someone was going to be open for a TD or big gain. My sense is that you are right that limitations in Turks teaching ability and his ability to take input were big factors in this not working out, but my guess is that Jauron was getting pressure from Ralph to do something to make it work and Turk did not show the ability to make any progress or to make it look different enough that he was at least trying and it was an interpersonal breakdown rather some inability to see what was happening which did Turk in. Your explanation seems a bit too simplistic. The situation sounds like a completely lubricated cluster. The OC wanted to run his own offense and the HC wanted a different offense. The HC kept having to change and limit what the OC wanted to do. The OC says he tried to simply things but could never get it simple enough to suit the HC. Is the problem wanting it complex? Or is the problem removing sets, formations, and plays from the offense? Does it even matter? The result was a ridiculously conservative offense that played it safe above all else, limited mistakes, couldn't score, and couldn't get first downs. It's quite possible that neither Turk's system nor Jauron's philosophy were the problem, but trying to blend the two diametrically opposed approaches was a disaster. At any rate, we will find out quite a bit about what a Dick Jauron offense is all about soon enough.
BuffaloBill Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 Starting wth, and including Levy in 06, this team has been managed and coached by people that no other franchise would possibly want. April and McNally are certainly exceptions, but who else? Wade Phillips What you miss is that success breeds success. The Bills had coaches and front office people placed around the league during the Polian / Levy era. They have not since because who wants coaches from a mediocre (at best) franchise? The other underlying issue is that RW does not highly compensate coaches. Theefore he will not attract "hot pick" coaches to Buffalo.
Bill from NYC Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 Wade Phillips What you miss is that success breeds success. The Bills had coaches and front office people placed around the league during the Polian / Levy era. They have not since because who wants coaches from a mediocre (at best) franchise? The other underlying issue is that RW does not highly compensate coaches. Theefore he will not attract "hot pick" coaches to Buffalo. I was talking about after 06. Wade is clearly superior to Jauron, and is one of the best defensive minds in football.
hb123 Posted September 8, 2009 Posted September 8, 2009 I was talking about after 06. Wade is clearly superior to Jauron, and is one of the best defensive minds in football. This whole thing is a cluster f#$K.......Jauron's offenses over the years here and chicago have been bad. There are a bunch of problems that all have us at the train wreck we see now..... 1) revamp the oline....... all guys in new positions and several new/rookies. I like some of the moves but we knew they were going to struggle. The running backs pick up of blitzes has also been horrible. 2) overly complicated playbook/sets/formations etc. - with #1 we should be trying to make it simple.......I gotta agree w/ Jauron to a degree. Back when Kelly was running the k-gun, we only had 3-4 running plays, but we executed those plays very very well. By this point, Turk should have had installed those 3-4 plays and had the offense and oline mastered them. Sometimes less is more. I can't recall our o running screens, slants or even guys across the middle the past few years and never in motion. Why is lee evens or any receiver never put in motion to be put in a better position to make a play based upon the read of the d?? Its not a surprise then when Trent is constantly dumping the ball off/checking down. Talent - the line, searching for a viable TE and the play calls all factor here. 3) Does anyone else think our training camp was a joke? These guys should have been putting in tons of reps in training camp to get a modified offense down and working well. It seems like Trent is shell shocked/confused and the line looks ok on some plays and just as confused on others. 4) Turk having NO answer for the 3-4 is also horrific..... his 1000 play playbook had no answer for this? This offense looked like a high school team out there alot of preseason. This whole thing just reeks of no one taking charge and being a leader and organizing the team to put the players in the best position to win/succeed. That is squarely on Jauron and Brandon. Jauron and Turk should have had a plan and known every detail of it. If there was disagreement on style, philosophy it should have been discovered 6 mos ago.
Special K Posted September 8, 2009 Posted September 8, 2009 4) Turk having NO answer for the 3-4 is also horrific..... his 1000 play playbook had no answer for this? This offense looked like a high school team out there alot of preseason. Don't you mean Pop Warner?
rpcolosi Posted September 8, 2009 Posted September 8, 2009 I know I'm still relatively new to OBD but I don't get how so many people on here hate, or think so poorly of Levy. It really doesn't make much sense. Is it because he never won the big one and got outcoached by Parcells, Jimmy Johnson and Joe Gibbs? Because if thats the case, he's still one of the top coaches to ever play those games. I'd certainly put those 3 ahead of him all time, and thus, losing to them seems somewhat understandable. To go a step further, he was part of the reason Bill Polian was ever even discovered. For nothing else, he deserves credit for the start that the best modern day GM had into the NFL, not to mention the coaches and players from under him that are working in and around the league. I agree Marv is not Landy, Lombardi, Gibbs or Parcells. He's probably not even one of the top 10 or 15 HCs of all time. But he is a HOF coach, and deservedly so. I think everyone here, regardless of their view, should acknowledge as much of him. Whether Saban was better or not, I have no idea, I'm only 28. But from an NFL wide perspective of the past 25 years, there aren't many coaches that have his track record.... and if you say it was the players, well last I checkd, he had an impact of most of those guys getting drafted outside of Kelly. And say what you will, but Kelly isn't even a top 10 QB of the past 25 years, so you can't say we won just beacuse he came from the USFL...
Recommended Posts