It all starts at the top...

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

had a long chat with Jeff Littmann at training camp and he struck me as a very good guy. but know this, no one runs this team aside from Mr. Wilson (there i go looking stupid again! god, will i ever learn). he is the one who makes all the decisions, good and bad, however you might perceive them.

he is the one who ordered Russ to sign TO. he is the one, who agreed to the Toronto deal. and if you think Mr. Wilson speaks poorly about the WNY economy, you should hear him discuss Detroit.

the one thing people need to know is that Ralph Wilson is a straight shooter whose word is gold (and that's a noble quality that should be cherished beyond wins and losses), and who has forgotten more about football than I will ever know. yes, there have been some questionable decisions, but this is his team. and those rooting for a new owner, might be bemoaning that wish whenever that sad day happens.

 

jw

 

I appreciate the knowledgeable insight you bring to this board. It may be true that RW has forgotten more about football than we or even you know, but then all the more what is his excuse for only 17 winning seasons out of 49? Of that 17, I remember well 13 of those winning years and they were exciting. But how many grueling seasons of despair that went on for years on end between those so few winning years.

 

The sad truth of the situation is that RW is the key person in all of this and RW has found a way to be the head honcho of poor to mediocre teams through many different type of eras of football from the 60's to the 00's.

 

The only thing that makes me feel a little better is that of the 10 AFL teams that merged with the NFL only 6 have ever won SB's. On the other hand of the 16 NFL teams that merged, 11 have won SB's. So the Bills are part of the sizable 40% of AFL teams that have never won a SB. Fun facts to know in this 50 year anniversary.

[Delete This Account]

I appreciate the knowledgeable insight you bring to this board. It may be true that RW has forgotten more about football than we or even you know, but then all the more what is his excuse for only 17 winning seasons out of 49? Of that 17, I remember well 13 of those winning years and they were exciting. But how many grueling seasons of despair that went on for years on end between those so few winning years.

 

The sad truth of the situation is that RW is the key person in all of this and RW has found a way to be the head honcho of poor to mediocre teams through many different type of eras of football from the 60's to the 00's.

 

The only thing that makes me feel a little better is that of the 10 AFL teams that merged with the NFL only 6 have ever won SB's. On the other hand of the 16 NFL teams that merged, 11 have won SB's. So the Bills are part of the sizable 40% of AFL teams that have never won a SB. Fun facts to know in this 50 year anniversary.

New Hampshire, with all due respect, the numbers are somewhat skewed. remember that the NFL had the distinct advantage of having been established in much larger markets. and the Dallas Cowboys Super Bowls should, in some ways, count in favor of the AFL because Lamar Hunt was forced out of Dallas after the NFL moved into Dallas after turning down Lamar for a franchise there.

 

that said, you're right, it's difficult to reconcile Mr.Wilson's football knowledge with the record of his team. and yet, i'll raise this: for the most part he's been a hands-off owner in the sense of allowing his football people to do their job without too much meddling while asking mostly for loyalty in return. much of that loyalty has not been returned and i'll specifically point to the Tom Donahoe era, which is why this team is in the mess it's been in for so long.

 

Mr. Wilson trusted TD for doing the right thing and yet feels as if that trust had been taken for granted.

 

i won't go back to the Bill Polian years or before that because I wasn't here for that. but i'll say this, when Al Davis tells me he respects Ralph Wilson for the position he took against the Raiders relocation from Oakland to L.A., then i think there's something to that.

and when Roger Goodell references Mr. Wilson as a person he leans on for advice, then I'm guessing there's something to that beyond mere lip service.

and remember, it ain't easy getting into the Hall of Fame, which is why i truly believe that honor has raised the respect Mr. Wilson now carries around the NFL.

 

no, not everything has gone right with the Bills. but if anyone dimisses Mr. Wilson for his mistakes, then i think they should also credit him for what he's done for the franchise, the city and the NFL. and to suggest the team or the NFL would've done as well or better without him, well, that's mere fantasy in my opinion.

 

jw

[irishman]

Maybe as a kid I just didn't know any better but when were we going through our "2-14" seasons even then I always thought there was hope but this is the 1st time in watching the Bills for over 25 years that I truely feel completely uninspired. Last seasons strong start then going 2-8 had to have been the most frustrating I've felt as a Bills fan EVER. Now, with basically no changes from the GM right down to the assist coaches is the 1st time in years that I think Buffalo has absolutely no chance.

Even when I would hear the uneducated NFL fan say "The Bills Suck" I would always be able to throw out some players names and explain to them how we have a chance. Whether it was my blind lotalty to Joe Ferguson back in the day or joe Cibbs, thurman Thomas, Kelly, whoever. Now I really can't thik of anyone that even has a slight chance of bailing us out this year. And to think that our best player is probably Owens a.k.a."The rooster" just adds on to the frustration of another futlie Bills season.

[jwws9999]

Maybe as a kid I just didn't know any better but when were we going through our "2-14" seasons even then I always thought there was hope but this is the 1st time in watching the Bills for over 25 years that I truely feel completely uninspired. Last seasons strong start then going 2-8 had to have been the most frustrating I've felt as a Bills fan EVER. Now, with basically no changes from the GM right down to the assist coaches is the 1st time in years that I think Buffalo has absolutely no chance.

Even when I would hear the uneducated NFL fan say "The Bills Suck" I would always be able to throw out some players names and explain to them how we have a chance. Whether it was my blind lotalty to Joe Ferguson back in the day or joe Cibbs, thurman Thomas, Kelly, whoever. Now I really can't thik of anyone that even has a slight chance of bailing us out this year. And to think that our best player is probably Owens a.k.a."The rooster" just adds on to the frustration of another futlie Bills season.

 

after going through the pain of those late 70's teams, and late 80's teams, that it's amazing that Ralph seems to letting it happen again, and maybe he knows alot about football, but he's a terrible football team manager. he never did figure that out.

[dave mcbride]

New Hampshire, with all due respect, the numbers are somewhat skewed. remember that the NFL had the distinct advantage of having been established in much larger markets. and the Dallas Cowboys Super Bowls should, in some ways, count in favor of the AFL because Lamar Hunt was forced out of Dallas after the NFL moved into Dallas after turning down Lamar for a franchise there.

 

that said, you're right, it's difficult to reconcile Mr.Wilson's football knowledge with the record of his team. and yet, i'll raise this: for the most part he's been a hands-off owner in the sense of allowing his football people to do their job without too much meddling while asking mostly for loyalty in return. much of that loyalty has not been returned and i'll specifically point to the Tom Donahoe era, which is why this team is in the mess it's been in for so long.

 

Mr. Wilson trusted TD for doing the right thing and yet feels as if that trust had been taken for granted.

 

i won't go back to the Bill Polian years or before that because I wasn't here for that. but i'll say this, when Al Davis tells me he respects Ralph Wilson for the position he took against the Raiders relocation from Oakland to L.A., then i think there's something to that.

and when Roger Goodell references Mr. Wilson as a person he leans on for advice, then I'm guessing there's something to that beyond mere lip service.

and remember, it ain't easy getting into the Hall of Fame, which is why i truly believe that honor has raised the respect Mr. Wilson now carries around the NFL.

 

no, not everything has gone right with the Bills. but if anyone dimisses Mr. Wilson for his mistakes, then i think they should also credit him for what he's done for the franchise, the city and the NFL. and to suggest the team or the NFL would've done as well or better without him, well, that's mere fantasy in my opinion.

 

jw

Thanks - good points all.

[Bill from NYC]

much of that loyalty has not been returned and i'll specifically point to the Tom Donahoe era, which is why this team is in the mess it's been in for so long.

 

Sorry, but I just cannot buy this. Levy/Jauron had 4 drafts, 3 full seasons and a ton of cap space to turn this thing around. Have they drafted star players? Were most of their free agents utter nightmares?

With the draft picks they spent on the secondary, we should be seeing guys like Mel Blount and Ronnie Lott back there. Instead, we are looking at Donte Whitner and his lack of big plays.

TD screwed up by drafting Losman, Williams and perhaps even Lee Evans. Jauron/Levy didn't help by flushing nice early draft picks down the sewer, let alone paying big money to bad free agents such as Tripplett, and the 49 million dollar fat guard with the clean uniform (Dockery).

 

I am NOT trying to say that we are losing because Ralph is a bad man, or that I in any way dislike him. I am merely stating that after TD, he brought in an unqualified GM, who hired a proven, perpetual loser to coach the football team. THIS imo is why we are losing, not TD.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

much of that loyalty has not been returned and i'll specifically point to the Tom Donahoe era, which is why this team is in the mess it's been in for so long.

 

Mr. Wilson trusted TD for doing the right thing and yet feels as if that trust had been taken for granted.

Hey John. Thanks for engaging in the discussion here. It really raises the level of dialogue and I think I speak for the majority of posters here when I say you are very welcomed on board.

 

As the original poster (and in many previous posts) I have given Ralph Wilson credit for his contributions to the NFL and his stand on certain issues.

 

But as I stated at the top he's been, for whatever reasons, an owner who as a rule delivers a poor product. I don't want to sharpshoot you but I have to take exception to the comment about the Donahoe era. Yes it was a failure. But we are entering year four of the post Donahoe era and the team is still rudderless in the water. I think continuity and loyalty are important qualities to have and to give but to long suffering fans who have been largely patient, I think it's clear that collectively we're near the breaking point.

 

To witness other teams undergo regime changes with some startlingly great results (Miami, Atlanta, Baltimore last year) underscores the point that teams can and do reverse their fortunes rather quickly when the right moves are made. The Bills are seemingly no closer to becoming successful than they were ten years ago or more pointedly, even three years ago.

 

Hopefully we'll be singing a different song soon. I know we are the best fans in all of sports. But with futility comes frustration.

[Delete This Account]

Hey John. Thanks for engaging in the discussion here. It really raises the level of dialogue and I think I speak for the majority of posters here when I say you are very welcomed on board.

 

As the original poster (and in many previous posts) I have given Ralph Wilson credit for his contributions to the NFL and his stand on certain issues.

 

But as I stated at the top he's been, for whatever reasons, an owner who as a rule delivers a poor product. I don't want to sharpshoot you but I have to take exception to the comment about the Donahoe era. Yes it was a failure. But we are entering year four of the post Donahoe era and the team is still rudderless in the water. I think continuity and loyalty are important qualities to have and to give but to long suffering fans who have been largely patient, I think it's clear that collectively we're near the breaking point.

 

To witness other teams undergo regime changes with some startlingly great results (Miami, Atlanta, Baltimore last year) underscores the point that teams can and do reverse their fortunes rather quickly when the right moves are made. The Bills are seemingly no closer to becoming successful than they were ten years ago or more pointedly, even three years ago.

 

Hopefully we'll be singing a different song soon. I know we are the best fans in all of sports. But with futility comes frustration.

things move in cycles, and this, notably, has been a long one, and this era still has ties to the Tom Donahoe era because his dismissal has led to the creation of this current regime.

my guess -- and strictly a guess -- is a reassessment will come at the end of this season depending how the Bills do.

 

jw

[jwws9999]

things move in cycles, and this, notably, has been a long one, and this era still has ties to the Tom Donahoe era because his dismissal has led to the creation of this current regime.

my guess -- and strictly a guess -- is a reassessment will come at the end of this season depending how the Bills do.

 

jw

 

 

Ralph reassessed his things at the end of last season, he determined his pocketbook was all that mattered

[GG]

things move in cycles, and this, notably, has been a long one, and this era still has ties to the Tom Donahoe era because his dismissal has led to the creation of this current regime.

my guess -- and strictly a guess -- is a reassessment will come at the end of this season depending how the Bills do.

 

jw

 

But then it's not totally fair to lay most of the blame on the remnants of the TD era, unless you're hinting that John Guy's and Tom Modrak's presence still haunt this team.

 

A reassessment at the end of this year could simply mean that Hank Bullough will replace Kay Stephenson.

 

Again, there's no questioning Ralph Wilson's footprint in Buffalo and longevity in the league, but there's also no questioning that the results of his football teams would not merit induction into HoF. I can also argue that the main reason he's still in Buffalo is the windfall revenue the league got once Fox network got into the football bidding business, followed by DirecTV & ESPN. If NFL's TV contract was similar to the other leagues, then the nice, sweet Mr. Wilson would have been long gone.

 

Incidentally, I fully agree that there should be revenue sharing in the NFL, because the owners will make a lot more money when the league is viable and competitive, and I applaud Wilson's fight to ensure revenue sharing. He should also be commended for keeping the league afloat in its early days. OTOH, much of the revenues and increases in franchise values over the past two decades have been led by the vocal, freespending, slimy owners like Jones, Snyder, & Kraft.

 

Thus, I cannot fully buy into Wilson's commitment & rhetoric, knowing that he owes a lot of his fortune to the actions of others, including NYS which gave him the stadium. If he were in Golisano's shoes, he'd be gone a lot sooner.

[Lori]

things move in cycles, and this, notably, has been a long one, and this era still has ties to the Tom Donahoe era because his dismissal has led to the creation of this current regime.

my guess -- and strictly a guess -- is a reassessment will come at the end of this season depending how the Bills do.

 

jw

Plus, while Donahoe is no longer employed at One Bills Drive, Tom Modrak and John Guy (along with quite a few of his other hires) are still heavily involved in the football side of the business. In particular, everyone listed under "pro personnel" in the media guide was hired between 2001-2003.

 

Ralph reassessed his things at the end of last season, he determined his pocketbook was all that mattered

Which is why he told Russ Brandon to go out and spend $6+ million on a 35-year-old WR?

[jwws9999]

Plus, while Donahoe is no longer employed at One Bills Drive, Tom Modrak and John Guy (along with quite a few of his other hires) are still heavily involved in the football side of the business. In particular, everyone listed under "pro personnel" in the media guide was hired between 2001-2003.

 

 

Which is why he told Russ Brandon to go out and spend $6+ million on a 35-year-old WR?

 

 

he would have been better off spending 6 million a year on Bill Cowhert, but bill wouldn't suck up to him the way juaron does

[Maddog69]

after going through the pain of those late 70's teams, and late 80's teams, that it's amazing that Ralph seems to letting it happen again, and maybe he knows alot about football, but he's a terrible football team manager. he never did figure that out.

 

Agree 100%. My problem with this organization is that they are bad and nobody in the organization seems to care at all.

[JohnC]

things move in cycles, and this, notably, has been a long one, and this era still has ties to the Tom Donahoe era because his dismissal has led to the creation of this current regime.

my guess -- and strictly a guess -- is a reassessment will come at the end of this season depending how the Bills do.

 

jw

 

When Wilson fired Butler/A.J. Smith (they were going to leave anyway) Wilson hired Levy to be his GM. He was unqualified for the position, but Wilson wanted someone he could trust. The Levy regime was a disaster. He hired Jauron and kept John Guy and Tom Modrak in place as the primary personnel staff. Levy described his role as a facilitator. He said it was his responsibility to create a collaborative environment. Levy also made some cryptic comments that this is the best we can do with the limitations we have to work with.

 

When Levy left Wilson then replaced him by promoting the marketing executive of the organization, Russ Brandon, to be the CEO of the franchise. Wilson's reasoning for the peculiar move of having a person with little experience in football taking over was that he was comfortable with this arrangement.

 

The Bills record over the past decade ranks 29 out of 32 teams. Their record for this period is 60-84. Their winning percentage is .417.

 

The point I'm stressing is that the owner has designed the organizational structure for this franchise. It is a management system that he wants. No one hoodwinked him. There have been many opportunities for Wilson to assess the failings of his inglorious organization and make some corrective changes. The changes he has made have been disasterous. But they are they changes he feels comfortable with. Mr. Wilson is over 90 yrs old. He has owned the franchise for half a century. Does anyone really believe at this stage in his llife that he is going to be innovative and creative and change the way he has always operated?

[Endzone Animal]

after going through the pain of those late 70's teams, and late 80's teams, that it's amazing that Ralph seems to letting it happen again, and maybe he knows alot about football, but he's a terrible football team manager. he never did figure that out.

Actually, to be accurate, it's the pain of the late 60's, early 70's, late 70's, mid '80's, and late 90's ---> present. Pretty nice run, eh?

[Lori]

When Wilson fired Butler/A.J. Smith (they were going to leave anyway) Wilson hired Levy to be his GM.

Might want to check that timeline ...

[Delete This Account]

he would have been better off spending 6 million a year on Bill Cowhert, but bill wouldn't suck up to him the way juaron does

who's cowert? and what's he ever done?

get your facts straight and your spelling right. and we realize you have some kind of a hate-on in regards to Mr. Wilson which seems to be blinding you of all perspective. come back with another song when you get a chance, because this is getting absolutely dull.

 

jw

[Delete This Account]

But then it's not totally fair to lay most of the blame on the remnants of the TD era, unless you're hinting that John Guy's and Tom Modrak's presence still haunt this team.

 

A reassessment at the end of this year could simply mean that Hank Bullough will replace Kay Stephenson.

 

Again, there's no questioning Ralph Wilson's footprint in Buffalo and longevity in the league, but there's also no questioning that the results of his football teams would not merit induction into HoF. I can also argue that the main reason he's still in Buffalo is the windfall revenue the league got once Fox network got into the football bidding business, followed by DirecTV & ESPN. If NFL's TV contract was similar to the other leagues, then the nice, sweet Mr. Wilson would have been long gone.

 

Incidentally, I fully agree that there should be revenue sharing in the NFL, because the owners will make a lot more money when the league is viable and competitive, and I applaud Wilson's fight to ensure revenue sharing. He should also be commended for keeping the league afloat in its early days. OTOH, much of the revenues and increases in franchise values over the past two decades have been led by the vocal, freespending, slimy owners like Jones, Snyder, & Kraft.

 

Thus, I cannot fully buy into Wilson's commitment & rhetoric, knowing that he owes a lot of his fortune to the actions of others, including NYS which gave him the stadium. If he were in Golisano's shoes, he'd be gone a lot sooner.

 

in my many conversations with Mr. Wilson, i don't know him as a person capable or rhetoric or spin.

as to the Tom Donahoe legacy, this is still an extension of that era, in part because the team got here due to Mr. Wilson's stated reticence to go outside the organization when promoting Russ and hiring Marv because he felt snakebit after bringing in Tom.

by doing the math, the Bills are still dealing with the after-effects post 2005 season.

 

jw

[Delete This Account]

Might want to check that timeline ...

no, i think this is the new history being provided by young and new posters who fail to even check the intrawebs for facts, because it's easier to make them up to go forward with their own inept agenda. this whole discussion is getting tiresome because the posters making their cases -- GG excluded -- can't seem to deal with reality and history.

 

if that's the case, i can't believe Hank Bullough was dismissed after getting the Bills to the Super Bowl, and how the Bills lost the NFL title in 1958 is beyond me.

 

sheesh!

 

jw

 

ADD: exceptions also to New Hampshire, BillNYC , who have provided relevant arguments in this discussion.

[Lori]

no, i think this is the new history being provided by young and new posters who fail to even check the intrawebs for facts, because it's easier to make them up to go forward with their own inept agenda. this whole discussion is getting tiresome because the posters making their cases -- GG excluded -- can't seem to deal with reality and history.

 

if that's the case, i can't believe Hank Bullough was dismissed after getting the Bills to the Super Bowl, and how the Bills lost the NFL title in 1958 is beyond me.

 

sheesh!

 

jw

 

ADD: exceptions also to New Hampshire, BillNYC , who have provided relevant arguments in this discussion.

I won't deny that there's room for debate about both Wilson's decision-making and his legacy. The vitriol is what's getting tiresome for me, and it's just not on this topic -- or this board, for that matter. Goes back to the thoughts you typed the other night in your riff about the decline and fall of civilization ...