Red Posted August 30, 2009 Posted August 30, 2009 Then again, he might drop the flag on his way to midfield...
cale Posted August 30, 2009 Posted August 30, 2009 I believe RW is a good man and as far as the NFL/AFL is concerned he has made some great contributions. However he comes from a generation where wealth presumes entitlements. Also see the Bengals and Raiders. A real franchise GM/Coach would want power and latitude to run a team without having to worry about said entitlements - namely owners, children of owners and nepotism overriding the needs of a franchise in terms of culture and QC of how the team is run. Good owners give that right up to people whom they believe can accomplish what the team needs to accomplish. The two times Wilson ceded control - once the GM had much success but didn't respect the owners entitlements and was run out of town (Polian). The second time, the GM made an awful mess of things by hiring bad coaches and living in paranoia. To make matters worse the team regressed. So I think given how old school Ralph is, he believes that he's been burned twice. Therefore unless he gets really desperate this/next season I don't see him ceding control again under circumstances that would make it appealing for a coach or GM with a successful track record to come help this franchise. So I see the same sad cycle repeating itself because of a insecure old school owner and a paranoid GM. Unfortunately. C
Endzone Animal Posted August 30, 2009 Posted August 30, 2009 --Sigh-- was I just like two decades late in coming to the realizations, or does my insight defy me? Welcome to Zion, Neo.
May Day 10 Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 i agree. this team has almost no chance of a turnaround until Wilson is no longer the owner. Maybe if the power switches back to the NFC, the Bills could luck out into a playoff spot. the problem is, if Wilson isnt the owner, there is a decent chance we wont have a team. Sucky reality we have.
dave mcbride Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Butler refused to meet with Ralph to discuss a new contract. His contract was up, Ralph just got rid of him a couple months early because he knew he was leaving anyway. When Butler did leave, he left the Bills a MESS to clean up. By pretty much all accounts, Ralph was tossing out feelers of around $1+ million to Butler because in his world, you don't pay GMs or coaches (he will pay players). Butler considered it a joke, which it was given that he received $3 million from San Diego. I suspect you would have done the same. As for Wilson's philosophy, obviously nothing has changed. He got Donohoe for around $1 million/year, and we all know why Jauron is still the coach. I doubt Brandon is making much either, relatively speaking.
dave mcbride Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 In light of RW's ownership of a NFL franchise since 1970, one must seriously doubt his ability to find AND retain the top football people. Eventually, every single football person left on their own volition or was fired. Saban, Knox, Polian, Butler (AJ Smith). IIRC, Levy had some issues with RW at the end as well. This track record is manifested in an entire decade of losing, with no end in sight. RW may be in the HOF for work done 40-50 years ago, but he never excelled at allowing good people to work for him. I think most people applauded hiring TD, but even though that didn't work, RW's reaction to this failure is almost as worse. He hired people not capable of performing the jobs they were brought in for that could be controlled. Neither Levy or Brandon are capable personnel people, and were set up to fail. The on-field product is a direct reflection of RW's and Littman's stewardship of the franchise. If memory serves, Levy left because he wouldnt' fire Dan Henning. He thought Henning was unfairly blamed by Wilson, and was willing to fall on his sword for him. Turns out Marv was right. Henning has been gold everywhere he's been since Buffalo. After the Bills beat the Jets twice in 97, I remember Parcells marveling about the backdoor screen calls for Timmy Tindale that racked up big yardage. After he was fired at the end of that season, he was working for Parcells the next year on a 12-4 team with a QB with a 29-6 td/int ratio. He then went to Carolina and OC'ed a super bowl, and he kicked the Bills' collective ass twice last year while coordinating for Parcells/Sparano in Miami.
davefan66 Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 If memory serves, Levy left because he wouldnt' fire Dan Henning. He thought Henning was unfairly blamed by Wilson, and was willing to fall on his sword for him. Turns out Marv was right. Henning has been gold everywhere he's been since Buffalo. After the Bills beat the Jets twice in 97, I remember Parcells marveling about the backdoor screen calls for Timmy Tindale that racked up big yardage. After he was fired at the end of that season, he was working for Parcells the next year on a 12-4 team with a QB with a 29-6 td/int ratio. He then went to Carolina and OC'ed a super bowl, and he kicked the Bills' collective ass twice last year while coordinating for Parcells/Sparano in Miami. I don't know if another owner would have kept the Bills in Buffalo this long. That said, my respect for Ralph kinda came crashing down this offseason with the handling of Jauron. Respect him for keeping the team in town, but have little respect for how he's handled the team in the last decade. Problem is, if we keep filling the seats, status quo rules. If you could spend $50 to make $200, or spend $100 to make $200, what would you do?
dave mcbride Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 I don't know if another owner would have kept the Bills in Buffalo this long. That said, my respect for Ralph kinda came crashing down this offseason with the handling of Jauron. Respect him for keeping the team in town, but have little respect for how he's handled the team in the last decade. Problem is, if we keep filling the seats, status quo rules. If you could spend $50 to make $200, or spend $100 to make $200, what would you do? I basically agree with you (and everyone else here, for that matter) about the Jauron decision. That said, one part of me does agree with Wilson that there has been no continuity in the coaching and for once it might be worth letting a guy get into his fourth year (as opposed to Wade, Williams, and Mularkey). It might prove to be a bad decision, but I'm willing to wait it out. I'm no fan of Jauron, but his teams do have strengths - they're fairly disciplined, and he's a good coach at the uber-tactical level - the sort of guy who can eke out 17-13 wins regularly against teams of equal talent. Lest anyone forget, the Bills record the past three seasons hasn't been worse than the team's collective talent level. And while the preseason games have been underwhelming to say the least, I still don't put much stock in them, particularly since their best player has decided to rest up for the season and not play. The point is, let's hold off on the firing squad until after week 8. Judging from the schedule, the Bills have a pretty good shot to be 4-4 going into the second half. If they're 2-6, the coaches will be fired (if not then, then at the end of the season).
ThereIsNoDog Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 I wish I came from a family with money to burn. I didn't. But they were always there for me and I'll miss them terribly when they're gone. Because while the inheritance I do get may seem great, it won't necessarily make things better.
Sisyphean Bills Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 and he's a good coach at the uber-tactical level - the sort of guy who can eke out 17-13 wins regularly WTF is "uber-tactical"? Do you mean like running it 3 times into the pile to set up a long field goal attempt that sails wide? Or going into a prevent and letting the other team marching it down the sidelines in the last 2 minutes? The tactical blundering loses as many close games as the team may win = mediocrity.
iinii Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 i agree. this team has almost no chance of a turnaround until Wilson is no longer the owner. Maybe if the power switches back to the NFC, the Bills could luck out into a playoff spot. the problem is, if Wilson isnt the owner, there is a decent chance we wont have a team. That is the twisted fate that we may have been handed as Bills fans. Forced to live with a rich uncle who forces us to live on bread and water or moved to a foster home where we don't belong.
BillsVet Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 I basically agree with you (and everyone else here, for that matter) about the Jauron decision. That said, one part of me does agree with Wilson that there has been no continuity in the coaching and for once it might be worth letting a guy get into his fourth year (as opposed to Wade, Williams, and Mularkey). It might prove to be a bad decision, but I'm willing to wait it out. Who the heck is advising Wilson on football matters? Or could it be that he's calling the shots and Littman is providing the financial implications of those choices? We know after the retention of DJ that Brandon is a front-man for the organization. And while this isn't as bad as Cincinnati or Detroit during the Millen years, Wilson has no football people in the inner circle. Jauron's greatest failing has been an inability to find good coordinators, particularly on offense. None of his former OC's are even in the NFL anymore. I read last year that Wilson directly negotiated the contract extension with DJ. After all, RW couldn't fire someone he had re-signed just two months previous. Dave, I'm not directing this rant completely at you. I just want someone to show me where sensible football people are actually allowed in the decision making process at OBD. Because from where I stand, it's not happening and the 91 year old owner is making decisions with his CFO.
DarthICE Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Be careful what you wish for... Sorry but that has to stop. That is the same terror that WNY'ers have had for years now and Ralph knows it. All this talk about the franchise moving isn't reality at all. It is not easy to uproot an NFL franchise these days. There are so many factors involved, this team is going no where for a long time. Hell Ralph really hasn't fully tapped the existing market that fills the stands for a crappy team. Sell naming rights, increase ticket costs and luxury box costs to the NFL average. Fans will gripe about it, but if we can field a team with an established HC and a competitive team, you can bet the butts will be in the seats and the NFL isn't going to ok a move from a fan base that keeps selling like the Bills do. Esp. when you have Jacksonville stating all of their home games may be blacked out this year.
The Big Cat Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Uhmm..ever see old pics of ralph?? He was a pretty tough looking guy.Hes not a geek.-That being said he has been a mediocre owner. Yeah, dude. It was the 20's everyone looked tough then. If you weren't tough, you'd die of [insert funny disease modern medicine has since eradicated.] And I always thought you were a "Cheerio, chaps!" sort of guy. I am. I'd never in a million years sit down to watch a game with you doom-and-gloomers. I enjoy the Bills and do my best to not get in the way of that. But the comment struck me the wrong way, crystallized a lot of suspicions I had about the man and his motives, confirmed that it's more about him than anything else. Welcome to Zion, Neo. ...I know...Kung Fu.?. <-- Keanu being the only man alive able to state this line so it would have to be punctuated thusly.
dave mcbride Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 WTF is "uber-tactical"? Do you mean like running it 3 times into the pile to set up a long field goal attempt that sails wide? Or going into a prevent and letting the other team marching it down the sidelines in the last 2 minutes? The tactical blundering loses as many close games as the team may win = mediocrity. I'm talking about beating a physically superior Green Bay team in 06 and hanging around for a very long time against a vastly superior Colts team in 06 (the Bills weren't talented that year). "Playing not to lose" and all of that -- not giving up big plays, controlling the clock, fighting field position battles, and protecting the football by not gambling. Jauron is good at that. However, that tactical approach means that you're more than likely to lose against less flawed teams because you're not attacking. Against teams with equal or worse flaws -- see the Rams game in 2008 -- you'll hang around and beat them in the end by letting them make more mistakes than you. Even in the Jets debacle at the end of the season last year, I felt that Jauron thoroughly outcoached Mangini aside from the Losman fumble (a big aside, mind you). The Jets were at home and probably a better team player by player, yet the Bills were in a position to win. I realize you think he sucks, but Jauron has a ton of respect around the league. Do I think he should be coach of the Bills? No. But I do think that a healthy dose of realism and objective observation would make this board a lot better. Lately, it's all "the Bills suck"; "Wilson sucks"; "Edwards sucks"; etc. etc. It's not only extremely tiresome, it's factually wrong. The Bills have been mediocre of late, and I suspect they will be again this year too (6-8 wins).
Bill from NYC Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 If memory serves, Levy left because he wouldnt' fire Dan Henning. He thought Henning was unfairly blamed by Wilson, and was willing to fall on his sword for him. Turns out Marv was right. Henning has been gold everywhere he's been since Buffalo. After the Bills beat the Jets twice in 97, I remember Parcells marveling about the backdoor screen calls for Timmy Tindale that racked up big yardage. After he was fired at the end of that season, he was working for Parcells the next year on a 12-4 team with a QB with a 29-6 td/int ratio. He then went to Carolina and OC'ed a super bowl, and he kicked the Bills' collective ass twice last year while coordinating for Parcells/Sparano in Miami. Great post dave. And to further emphasize what the problems were even back then, have a look at that offensive line. For untold reason(s), this team just wasn't built from the trenches. This is why I can't really can't get mad at the early part of the 09 draft. You know.....the part before Jauron lost his mind and started taking all defensive backs. At least our best resources were used on the lines which are the victims of long term neglect. Still, it will take at least another year to solidify the OT and DT positions, that is if they are so inclined to do so.
JohnC Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Butler refused to meet with Ralph to discuss a new contract. His contract was up, Ralph just got rid of him a couple months early because he knew he was leaving anyway. When Butler did leave, he left the Bills a MESS to clean up. You are correct that Butler was leaving whether he was going to get fired or not. But you didn't get at why he was leaving. When his contract was coming to a conclusion and he was negotiating a new contract with the organization the offer was so paltry compared to the market rate that he decided he wasn't going to stay. When the owner was asked why he lowballed his offer to Butler the clueless owner replied that he was "merely" a personnel guy. Soon after John Butler left he made some illuminating comments about Wilson. He said that no one understands what it is like to work for a boss like him. He is constantly interfering and there is the constant battle over player salaries. John Butler had a very difficult job as a GM because he took over for Polian and had to deal with the downside cycle and bloated cap of a SB run team. That is the challenge of the cap cycle that all GMs have to negotiate with. There is an addendum to the Butler getting fired. When Wilson fired Butler he then told A.J. Smith, Butler's subordinate, to take over. Out of loyalty to Butler he said no. He was then summarily fired by Wilson. Butler and A.J. Smith quickly rebounded with jobs in San Diego. It is probable that this San Diego deal was in the making even before Butler left the Bills. What is really sad about the behavior of our goofy owner is that it didn't take Butler/A.J. Smith long to retool the losing Chargers into a winning organization. Butler died shortly after of cancer, but A.J. Smith was instrumental in building a SB caliber team in San Diego. Does anyone want to compare the Bills roster with the Charger roster? No one can doubt that the owner is the prime reason for the organization's demise. The loyal fans who have supported the franchise don't deserve this fool. It is sad. So sad.
JohnC Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Dave, I'm not directing this rant completely at you. I just want someone to show me where sensible football people are actually allowed in the decision making process at OBD. Because from where I stand, it's not happening and the 91 year old owner is making decisions with his CFO. Bill Polian was a talented football executive who knew what he was doing, his results speak for itself. Even during his successful stint he was constantly battling Ralph's CFO, Littman, over finances. There really is no surprise that Ralph Wilson fired Polian because it was inevitable. The franchise is the owner's cash cow. Extracting money out of the operation was more of a priority than winning. Does anyone really expect a stubborn 90 yr. old who has owned a business for half a century to change his ways? Let's get real here. It is what it is, and has always been.
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