It all starts at the top...

[thebandit27]

so he works for the media huh, I guess that makes him an expert on everything

 

Way to twist my words when I call you out on your crappola.

 

No dude, it doesn't make him an expert on everything, but I'd say his knowledge regarding the inner-workings of the franchise are probably superior to the folks on this board, considering he speaks with the brass regularly.

 

Why is that so hard to understand?

[thewildrabbit]

The invention is the spin you put on the stories to make it solely the fault of Wilson, when there were extenuating circumstances where blame should reside with other people.

 

As for Cousineau, I'll let history be the judge if he would have become a better NFL player under Kay Stephenson, or Jim Kelly became under Marchibroda and who would have benefited the Bills more.

 

As for other #1 picks bolting to another league - check the AFL/NFL draft wars and the impact that USFL had on signings - and all that was before free agency.

 

And if you are going to make a case that nothing like Cousineau happened after '79 it doesn't help that you also bring up John Elway. I have pictures of him wearing pinstripes.

I did post this, Ralph Wilson hired an ex Buffalo Bill to be his GM in 1979, Stew Barber. He had a reputation for being hard headed and played hardball with some players. So I didn't throw all the blame at the owner, although he should be to blame for anything his employees do in his name.

 

Sorry, you just can't equate the AFL/ NFL and USFL to the CFL, the CFL is a joke and is not even considered a decent farm league for the NFL. Has any player, not to mention the very first overall pick in the draft, opted to head to the CFL rather then the play in NFL like Cousineau did? Has any CFL team offered them 2x what the NFL team was offering, what message did that send to you?

 

The 79 Bills had Chuck Knox as the head coach, this same coaching staff had Shane Nelson-Fred Smerlas-Jim Haslett among others. I'd have to say that the coaching Cousineau would have received in Buffalo would have far exceeded what he learned in the CFL and could have conceivably made him a much better player. His bad choice cost him dearly IMO.

[Delete This Account]

Sorry John. I know you don't need me to defend you, but as a former AP guy myself, I can't take this garbage.

no problem, bandit. was waiting to see how long this would go. but, as made apparent by the poster's response to this revelation, it's apparent he/she is impervious to facts, something that has been in clear evidence throughout this thread.

 

and jwww999, no, i make no claims to be an expert on anything. never have and never will. i merely attempt to provide perspective and relay what is told to me and what i observe. and from what i've read from your posts, you come off as rude and obtuse, with a clear willingness to pick fights without realizing how far in over your head you are.

 

but please, proceed and continue this circus of amusement.

 

jw

[thewildrabbit]

And if you are going to make a case that nothing like Cousineau happened after '79 it doesn't help that you also bring up John Elway. I have pictures of him wearing pinstripes.

The case I was making about John Elway has nothing to do with the fact he signed to play baseball for the Yankees,that was common knowledge and just a ploy. He wanted to play in the NFL,just not for the Colts and Robert Irsay.

 

My statement was, The fact is that Wilson and the Bills refused to sign the first overall draft pick in 1979 and the CFL paid him 2x what the Bills offered him, you don't think that had ramifications for years for other players? Has that EVER happened before or since, that one instance made me think that the Buffalo Bills and Ralph Wilson were the cheapest team at the time.Even worse then Paul Brown, Bill Bidwell and Robert Irsay. You know the latter right? The guy John Elway choose not to play for...

 

The reason Elway opted to play baseball rather then play for the Colts was because of how Robert Irsay treated Elway's favorite QB, Bert Jones. It wasn't about the money, it wasn't about baseball. It was about an NFL owner and his reputation of how he treated his players.

[GG]

I did post this, Ralph Wilson hired an ex Buffalo Bill to be his GM in 1979, Stew Barber. He had a reputation for being hard headed and played hardball with some players. So I didn't throw all the blame at the owner, although he should be to blame for anything his employees do in his name.

 

Sorry, you just can't equate the AFL/ NFL and USFL to the CFL, the CFL is a joke and is not even considered a decent farm league for the NFL. Has any player, not to mention the very first overall pick in the draft, opted to head to the CFL rather then the play in NFL like Cousineau did? Has any CFL team offered them 2x what the NFL team was offering, what message did that send to you?

 

Yes, the message is that the CFL owner wanted to make a splash by making Cousineau the highest paid player in the league. That has little to do with whether Bills' offer was insulting or not. I'm guessing that it was on the lower end, but not out of market.

 

 

The 79 Bills had Chuck Knox as the head coach, this same coaching staff had Shane Nelson-Fred Smerlas-Jim Haslett among others. I'd have to say that the coaching Cousineau would have received in Buffalo would have far exceeded what he learned in the CFL and could have conceivably made him a much better player. His bad choice cost him dearly IMO.

 

A talented LB could still be a force despite the coaching, a bum LB will be a bum no matter who the coach is. By your logic Andy Katzemoyer would have been a star had he had the luck to play for Bill Belichick.

 

Oh wait.

[birdog1960]

no problem, bandit. was waiting to see how long this would go. but, as made apparent by the poster's response to this revelation, it's apparent he/she is impervious to facts, something that has been in clear evidence throughout this thread.

 

 

jw

If you're referring to me, I think you've misinterpreted my reconsideration of tone. I still think Ralph Wilson is an awful owner based on a lifetime of overseeing football losses and bad decisions who deserves the vast majority of criticism thrown his way. And in the most civil tone possible, I still feel your condescension and arrogance are neither becoming nor deserved.

[thewildrabbit]

Yes, the message is that the CFL owner wanted to make a splash by making Cousineau the highest paid player in the league. That has little to do with whether Bills' offer was insulting or not. I'm guessing that it was on the lower end, but not out of market.

 

 

 

 

A talented LB could still be a force despite the coaching, a bum LB will be a bum no matter who the coach is. By your logic Andy Katzemoyer would have been a star had he had the luck to play for Bill Belichick.

 

Oh wait.

Lawrence Taylor was going to be a star no matter who he played for, other players need help making the transition from college to the pro's

 

If your stating that good coaching can't make a player better, then your just dense and foolish.

[thewildrabbit]

Yes, the message is that the CFL owner wanted to make a splash by making Cousineau the highest paid player in the league. That has little to do with whether Bills' offer was insulting or not. I'm guessing that it was on the lower end, but not out of market.

My question to you was has any other college player been offered 2x the money that the NFL offered by the CFL? Cousineau was mistreated by Stew Barber wasn't even made a decent offer by the Bills, why select him #1 overall if you don't want to pay him.

 

Did you even read the link I posted?

 

“I was incredibly flattered to have been drafted by the Bills and I looked forward to playing with them,” the now 47-year-old Cousineau said. “Chuck Knox, the coach there at that time, was a great coach. He was what they call a players’ coach. I just looked upon it as a great opportunity.” But that feeling lasted for only a few fleeting hours – if that.

 

“My relationship with the Bills got off into the weeds, and it happened almost immediately,” he said.

 

When Cousineau went to fly on draft day from New York, where he had been for the draft, to Buffalo for a press conference with the local media, he found when he got to the airport that there was no seat for his agent, Jimmy Walsh. On top of that, the flight was sold out.

 

After that matter was finally cleared up and Cousineau and Walsh arrived in Buffalo, they were supposed to go to dinner that night with Bills owner Ralph Wilson and general manager Stew Barber.

 

“We waited down in the hotel lobby for them, but they never showed up. They didn’t even call,” Cousineau said.

 

“I didn’t need to have my rear end kissed by the Bills, but the way they treated me was about as rude as it gets. For whatever reason, the Bills were playing hardball with me right out of the gate.

 

“Barber had played with the Bills, and I found out later that he didn’t treat any players very well. This was at a time when a lot of players were leaving Buffalo.”

 

Feeling insulted and with his and his client’s pride hurt, Walsh quickly called the Alouettes to see if they were interested in having Cousineau play for them. They did.

 

“By that evening, we had a deal,” Cousineau said.

 

“Buffalo went ballistic when they heard that. They were very unhappy. They thought I was bluffing.

 

“I wanted to play in Buffalo. I really did. I didn’t expect them to match the offer I got from Montreal, because it was very good. We told the Bills that if they were just close to that offer, I’d stay.

 

“But the Bills came back with an offer that was less than half that of Montreal’s. I didn’t want to make it about money. I really didn’t. Like I said, though, the thing just got off in the weeds right away and never came back out.”

 

http://www.geocities.com/cfl_historical/CousineauTom.htm

 

The guy was a star in the CFL

[bills_fan]

if you don't have the energy to look up facts, then i don't have a reason to post them. stick by your theories and i'll stick with what i've been told by Tom Donahoe, Pat Willliams, Jim Kelly and Ralph Wilson.

 

jw

 

 

OK, I'll ask because I was (and still am) confounded by the Pat Williams thing. At the time, I thought it was the worst move possible for the team. Here's a career Bill, with a wife and businesses in WNY, who just played the game of his life against Pittsburgh (one of the few who showed up) and was posied to excel even further after a consistent and honorable career. He should have been re-signed and retired a Bill and I was angry that Donahoe did not even try to re-sign Pat.

 

Is there anything you can tell as to why Pat was not re-signed? If not (and not in a public forum), then thats OK too.

[JohnC]

if you don't have the energy to look up facts, then i don't have a reason to post them. stick by your theories and i'll stick with what i've been told by Tom Donahoe, Pat Willliams, Jim Kelly and Ralph Wilson.

 

jw

 

John W, You are very correct that the cap and contracts are as much as factors in retaining or letting players go. That is the nature of the business that all teams have to contend with. All teams have to make personnel decisions within this very challenging and complicated system. There are a lot of player decsions, which in hindsight can be criticized. The fairest way to judge the performance of an organization is the overall body of work. In the primary mesurement (record) the Bills are one of the worst performing organizations.

 

There is nothing wrong in believing that there should be a degree of accountability for performance. It is the owner who has assembled a very mediocre staff, including the front office and coaching staff, and the negative results should not come as a surprise to anyone. It is the owner who has created the Bills' organizational structure because he is comfortable with. it. As the owner he can handle his business any way he wants. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be held accountable for the product and how it performs.

 

The performance of the team has been bad for a very long time. I watch most of the games on the dish. Putting aside whether the team wins or loses their performance is putrid. The product on the field is almost unwatchable. There is little entertainment value in watching the Bills.

 

It is my personal opinion that nothing substative will change the losing dynamic of the team until there is an ownership change. Some people believe that the owner is benevolent. I don't. I consider him to be a terrific businessman and an incompetent owner. The loyal fans deserve much better treatment.

[Delete This Account]

If you're referring to me, I think you've misinterpreted my reconsideration of tone. I still think Ralph Wilson is an awful owner based on a lifetime of overseeing football losses and bad decisions who deserves the vast majority of criticism thrown his way. And in the most civil tone possible, I still feel your condescension and arrogance are neither becoming nor deserved.

no, i was not referring to jwsss, who i noted in the next paragraph. my apologies if you took offense, they were not meant toward you birdog1960.

 

jw

 

EDIT.

[Rico]

ESPN reports Ralph Wilson the driving force in Shonerts dismissal

[GG]

My question to you was has any other college player been offered 2x the money that the NFL offered by the CFL? Cousineau was mistreated by Stew Barber wasn't even made a decent offer by the Bills, why select him #1 overall if you don't want to pay him.

 

Did you even read the link I posted?

 

“I was incredibly flattered to have been drafted by the Bills and I looked forward to playing with them,” the now 47-year-old Cousineau said. “Chuck Knox, the coach there at that time, was a great coach. He was what they call a players’ coach. I just looked upon it as a great opportunity.” But that feeling lasted for only a few fleeting hours – if that.

 

“My relationship with the Bills got off into the weeds, and it happened almost immediately,” he said.

 

When Cousineau went to fly on draft day from New York, where he had been for the draft, to Buffalo for a press conference with the local media, he found when he got to the airport that there was no seat for his agent, Jimmy Walsh. On top of that, the flight was sold out.

 

After that matter was finally cleared up and Cousineau and Walsh arrived in Buffalo, they were supposed to go to dinner that night with Bills owner Ralph Wilson and general manager Stew Barber.

 

“We waited down in the hotel lobby for them, but they never showed up. They didn’t even call,” Cousineau said.

 

“I didn’t need to have my rear end kissed by the Bills, but the way they treated me was about as rude as it gets. For whatever reason, the Bills were playing hardball with me right out of the gate.

 

“Barber had played with the Bills, and I found out later that he didn’t treat any players very well. This was at a time when a lot of players were leaving Buffalo.”

 

Feeling insulted and with his and his client’s pride hurt, Walsh quickly called the Alouettes to see if they were interested in having Cousineau play for them. They did.

 

“By that evening, we had a deal,” Cousineau said.

 

“Buffalo went ballistic when they heard that. They were very unhappy. They thought I was bluffing.

 

“I wanted to play in Buffalo. I really did. I didn’t expect them to match the offer I got from Montreal, because it was very good. We told the Bills that if they were just close to that offer, I’d stay.

 

“But the Bills came back with an offer that was less than half that of Montreal’s. I didn’t want to make it about money. I really didn’t. Like I said, though, the thing just got off in the weeds right away and never came back out.”

 

http://www.geocities.com/cfl_historical/CousineauTom.htm

 

The guy was a star in the CFL

 

I think that you understand enough math to know if somebody is willing to pay double what someone else is offering doesn't mean that the original offer was unfair. It just means that the second person is willing to pay double the original price. Doesn't make that person smarter. If Allouettes made Cousineau, a rookie, the highest paid player in the league should also say something that has nothing to do with Buffalo.

 

As if you can have any less credibility in suggesting that Cousineau's problems were bad coaching early in his career. Yet he was a star in CFL. And then was a relative non-factor in Cleveland.

[Delete This Account]

OK, I'll ask because I was (and still am) confounded by the Pat Williams thing. At the time, I thought it was the worst move possible for the team. Here's a career Bill, with a wife and businesses in WNY, who just played the game of his life against Pittsburgh (one of the few who showed up) and was posied to excel even further after a consistent and honorable career. He should have been re-signed and retired a Bill and I was angry that Donahoe did not even try to re-sign Pat.

 

Is there anything you can tell as to why Pat was not re-signed? If not (and not in a public forum), then thats OK too.

Pat was offering a slight home-town discount, though, from what I remember his asking price wasn't too outrageously high to begin with. and i believed he was sincere in his wishes to stay in Buffalo.

I don't know how far negotiations went, but Tom Donahoe was on record as saying he is against signing players over 30 to long-term deals, or something like that.

 

and off Pat went.

 

jw

[JohnC]

Pat was offering a slight home-town discount, though, from what I remember his asking price wasn't too outrageously high to begin with. and i believed he was sincere in his wishes to stay in Buffalo.

I don't know how far negotiations went, but Tom Donahoe was on record as saying he is against signing players over 30 to long-term deals, or something like that.

 

and off Pat went.

 

jw

 

The Tom Donahoe regime was an utter disaster. His drafting was below par. His selections on HCs were misses. The Mularkey pick didn't make sense. The only explanation was that he selected a young, out of depth crony from Pittsburg who would be easy to influence. Two of his top personnel staff, John Guy and Tom Modrak, have been with the organization during the team's struggles. During Donahoe's stint he was never able to stitch together a competent OL which contributed to the offense's sluggishness. There seemed to be little coherency to the way he managed the organization. The team didn't steadily improve; it lurched back and forth.

 

Pat Williams was an anchor in the interior of the line. He was a free agent draft pick who turned out to be a gem. For the past number of years he has played at an all pro level for the Vikings.

 

Ralph Wilson made a big mistake in bringing Marv Levy back into the organization as a GM. The three years he was here didn't do much to advance the rebuilding of the team. One of the major reasons the owner said he brought him back is that he trusted him. Levy stated that his role was to be a facilitator and create an environment of collaboration. Marv Levy is a class person who was not suited to be a GM, at least not at that point in his life.

 

Until the owner installs a competent person as his GM the team will continue to struggle. It seems that RW doesn't want to have a football "strongman" running the football operation. That is the owner's prerogative.

[bills_fan]

Pat was offering a slight home-town discount, though, from what I remember his asking price wasn't too outrageously high to begin with. and i believed he was sincere in his wishes to stay in Buffalo.

I don't know how far negotiations went, but Tom Donahoe was on record as saying he is against signing players over 30 to long-term deals, or something like that.

 

and off Pat went.

 

jw

 

 

Thats what I fgured. Of course, Donahoe did sign Lawyer Milloy (on the wrong side of 30 to a L-T contract), so I think that goes out the window. Just speculating here but I think Pat wasn't one of Donahoe's guys and was a John Butler leftover, perhaps why he got the shaft.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Pat was offering a slight home-town discount, though, from what I remember his asking price wasn't too outrageously high to begin with. and i believed he was sincere in his wishes to stay in Buffalo.

I don't know how far negotiations went, but Tom Donahoe was on record as saying he is against signing players over 30 to long-term deals, or something like that.

 

and off Pat went.

 

jw

That doesn't square real well. Donahoe signed Sam Adams, who played the same position, when he was turning 30.

[Rico]

That doesn't square real well. Donahoe signed Sam Adams, who played the same position, when he was turning 30.

TD's world had to be rocked by the disaster that was the 2003 season, all his plans blown up in his face. He might've changed his approach... though that didn't stop him from extending Brain Dead Drew.

[Delete This Account]

That doesn't square real well. Donahoe signed Sam Adams, who played the same position, when he was turning 30.

i'll stick to answering the question regarding Pat Williams with what i know and not attempt to parse any logic or illogic to it.

 

jw

[Sisyphean Bills]

i'll stick to answering the question regarding Pat Williams with what i know and not attempt to parse any logic or illogic to it.

Didn't expect you to, Mr. Wawrow. Just saying is all.