It all starts at the top...

[Delete This Account]

I won't deny that there's room for debate about both Wilson's decision-making and his legacy. The vitriol is what's getting tiresome for me, and it's just not on this topic -- or this board, for that matter. Goes back to the thoughts you typed the other night in your riff about the decline and fall of civilization ...

wow, you got all that out of what i wrote. i was simply unhappy with certain posters calling me names ...

but we are doomed, you know. doomed!

 

 

jw

[Sisyphean Bills]

Which is why he told Russ Brandon to go out and spend $6+ million on a 35-year-old WR?

Not a strong point, as Owens is a player. The Bills have to make the minimum salary cap somehow.

[DarthICE]

New Hampshire, with all due respect, the numbers are somewhat skewed. remember that the NFL had the distinct advantage of having been established in much larger markets. and the Dallas Cowboys Super Bowls should, in some ways, count in favor of the AFL because Lamar Hunt was forced out of Dallas after the NFL moved into Dallas after turning down Lamar for a franchise there.

 

that said, you're right, it's difficult to reconcile Mr.Wilson's football knowledge with the record of his team. and yet, i'll raise this: for the most part he's been a hands-off owner in the sense of allowing his football people to do their job without too much meddling while asking mostly for loyalty in return. much of that loyalty has not been returned and i'll specifically point to the Tom Donahoe era, which is why this team is in the mess it's been in for so long.

 

Mr. Wilson trusted TD for doing the right thing and yet feels as if that trust had been taken for granted.

 

i won't go back to the Bill Polian years or before that because I wasn't here for that. but i'll say this, when Al Davis tells me he respects Ralph Wilson for the position he took against the Raiders relocation from Oakland to L.A., then i think there's something to that.

and when Roger Goodell references Mr. Wilson as a person he leans on for advice, then I'm guessing there's something to that beyond mere lip service.

and remember, it ain't easy getting into the Hall of Fame, which is why i truly believe that honor has raised the respect Mr. Wilson now carries around the NFL.

 

no, not everything has gone right with the Bills. but if anyone dimisses Mr. Wilson for his mistakes, then i think they should also credit him for what he's done for the franchise, the city and the NFL. and to suggest the team or the NFL would've done as well or better without him, well, that's mere fantasy in my opinion.

 

jw

 

Absolutely incorrect! He has been the most meddling owner in the NFL. This was well documented by AJ Smith, John Butler and Tom Donahoe. I remember after TD was canned how it made it out Ralph would call daily (sometimes many times a day) to check in on the franchise and see what all was going on. AJ Smith really let a lot come out when he and JB were out of here.

 

You say you can't include Polian, I can. Try to understand this, BILL POLIAN is the reason we went to 4 straight superbowls. He is the man that talked Ralph out of taking Doug Flutie (when we still had the rights to Jim Kelly) and to take Bruce Smith #1 overall in 85'. If Ralph had his way, he would have had Flutie, and we wouldn't' have TWO Hall of Famers on this team! Bill Polian built this team into a winner, unfortunately he let his hot head get the best of him and he called Ralph's daughter a not so nice word which lead to his firing. Reality is, that was just the last nail in the coffin. Polian battled with Ralph over personnel, coaching and money decisions. Ralph and Littman didn't want to open up the purse strings when free agency started in about 1993 and Bill knew it would take money to compete in this new NFL.

 

17 winning seasons out of 49 is pathetic. You can thank Polian for about 8 of those himself.

 

He is too egotistical (Get your name off the stadium Ralph and sell the naming rights), too scared (Hire another qualified GM like Ron Wolf and get out of his way) and too Cheap (hire a REAL, established HC and pay him the 6+ million he would command to coach this team) for this team to ever truly be successful.

 

Now look, I can't speak for the character of the MAN per say, I have only met and talked to him twice very briefly, but as an owner he has been horrible and the record and dismay of this team speaks for its self.

[DarthICE]

Plus, while Donahoe is no longer employed at One Bills Drive, Tom Modrak and John Guy (along with quite a few of his other hires) are still heavily involved in the football side of the business. In particular, everyone listed under "pro personnel" in the media guide was hired between 2001-2003.

 

 

Which is why he told Russ Brandon to go out and spend $6+ million on a 35-year-old WR?

 

Marketing. 6.5 million to sell....20,000 more season tickets? To bring the fanbase back to the seats, vendors, parking, proshop etc? It was a marketing ploy my friend. I never said ralph was stupid, just egotistical, scared and cheap

[jwws9999]

who's cowert? and what's he ever done?

get your facts straight and your spelling right. and we realize you have some kind of a hate-on in regards to Mr. Wilson which seems to be blinding you of all perspective. come back with another song when you get a chance, because this is getting absolutely dull.

 

jw

 

 

well, you keep defending one of the worst owners in the league with no evidence to back it up.

[DarthICE]

Sorry, but I just cannot buy this. Levy/Jauron had 4 drafts, 3 full seasons and a ton of cap space to turn this thing around. Have they drafted star players? Were most of their free agents utter nightmares?

With the draft picks they spent on the secondary, we should be seeing guys like Mel Blount and Ronnie Lott back there. Instead, we are looking at Donte Whitner and his lack of big plays.

TD screwed up by drafting Losman, Williams and perhaps even Lee Evans. Jauron/Levy didn't help by flushing nice early draft picks down the sewer, let alone paying big money to bad free agents such as Tripplett, and the 49 million dollar fat guard with the clean uniform (Dockery).

 

I am NOT trying to say that we are losing because Ralph is a bad man, or that I in any way dislike him. I am merely stating that after TD, he brought in an unqualified GM, who hired a proven, perpetual loser to coach the football team. THIS imo is why we are losing, not TD.

 

Which is why I refer to him as scared and cheap. So what TD didn't work out. Go hire Ron Wolf who has been a drafting genius and worked in a small market. Quit being scared. Then quit being cheap. A few years ago (I think mularkey or williams era) ESPN or USAToday or someone put out coaches salaries and shockingly we were dead last. It is just known Ralph has NEVER put a priority on coaching. There are established, winning coaches sitting out there right now that we can have, but not for what Ralph pays.

 

What I don't get is this, if I love this team so much and I am about 92 years old, I am gonna spend out the butt for one more shot. Cowher wants 7 mill per? So what? Pay the man and his staff! Bring in Ron Wolf and tell them both 'go buy what you need, here is the checkbook'. Man I would want to reward the fans with their loyalty, and hell even myself with one more realistic run. And when my butt meets my final reward then I can rest peacefully, and know my legacy was....I gave EVERYTHING I could to try and build a winner.

[Sisyphean Bills]

in my many conversations with Mr. Wilson, i don't know him as a person capable or rhetoric or spin.

as to the Tom Donahoe legacy, this is still an extension of that era, in part because the team got here due to Mr. Wilson's stated reticence to go outside the organization when promoting Russ and hiring Marv because he felt snakebit after bringing in Tom.

by doing the math, the Bills are still dealing with the after-effects post 2005 season.

And, that is the problem. Donahoe was an example of "highly centralized decision making," shall we say. When he was being escorted out of the building, there may have been a huge sense of "Whew!" as everyone exhaled and the snake's head was removed, but rumblings of "a rudderless ship" started with Mike Mularkey's resignation and continue to pick up steam and now resonate strongly with the fans.

 

While I can understand Wilson's point of view, I don't believe it is fair to the fans that he has decided to just go into a shell and surrender because he made a bad decision on Donahoe. Honestly, not being able to identify anyone (other than Levy) in the business that he can trust to help him run his own business and put a better product on the field is concerning at the very least.

[Lori]

well, you keep defending one of the worst owners in the league with no evidence to back it up.

"One of the worst owners in the league" is a matter of opinion. Per the TOS, "Courtesy is contagious - Just become someone doesn't share your opinion - doesn't make them an idiot." That's something I wish more people around here would remember.

 

Darth, my friend, Owens' marketing impact is a given ... but there's also no denying that the Bills needed another starting WR badly, and Wilson was willing to take the risk of signing T.O. in return for his on-the-field performance. Remember what he told John: "If he becomes a problem, we cut him. But if he's not, we're ahead of the game." (Sorry if that quote isn't exact, JW.)

[GG]

in my many conversations with Mr. Wilson, i don't know him as a person capable or rhetoric or spin.

as to the Tom Donahoe legacy, this is still an extension of that era, in part because the team got here due to Mr. Wilson's stated reticence to go outside the organization when promoting Russ and hiring Marv because he felt snakebit after bringing in Tom.

by doing the math, the Bills are still dealing with the after-effects post 2005 season.

 

jw

 

I never implied that there has been spin from RW in his tenure here.

 

But it's hard to argue that the people who usually ran his football operations were not competent football people. Shame is one word I can use to describe Pat McGroder's placement on the Wall and Lou Saban's omission.

 

Ralph Wilson is an owner of a buygone era, and it's certainly not fair to compare him to the guys I mentioned before. The newer generation of owners may be motivated by different incentives, yet all of them share the common denominator of the will to win over the will to make a profit. As I said, owning a professional franchise in any sport is more ego driven than profit driven. How each owner responds to his competitive instinct is different, as you have some guys perfectly happy to be patient while others will turn over their teams/coaches with the tides.

 

But having said that, when you put Wilson on a stage with the Rooneys and Maras, the guys who really belong in HoF, he doesn't even come close. All of those guys know more about football than anyone here can imagine. But what separates them from Wilson, they also have a knack of hiring smart football people to run their operations and know when to insert themselves into the football organization and more importantly, not let personal slights affect their business judgments.

 

I don't know Ralph Wilson personally, but picking up tidbits here and there over my 30+ yrs of following the team, make me strongly believe that Wilson is an honorable man who happens to be an awful CEO.

[Delete This Account]

Absolutely incorrect! He has been the most meddling owner in the NFL. This was well documented by AJ Smith, John Butler and Tom Donahoe. I remember after TD was canned how it made it out Ralph would call daily (sometimes many times a day) to check in on the franchise and see what all was going on. AJ Smith really let a lot come out when he and JB were out of here.

i guess you were here in the building during the Donahoe years, which would make you an expert on these things.

and if Mr. Wilson didn't call to check in on his franchise, he would then be accused of not having interest in the franchise.

it's a damned-if-do and damned-if-you-don't argument you present that provides no value.

but then i'm absolutely incorrect.

thanks, Tom.

 

jw

[DarthICE]

i guess you were here in the building during the Donahoe years, which would make you an expert on these things.

and if Mr. Wilson didn't call to check in on his franchise, he would then be accused of not having interest in the franchise.

it's a damned-if-do and damned-if-you-don't argument you present that provides no value.

but then i'm absolutely incorrect.

thanks, Tom.

 

jw

 

Lori can attest I am not Tom Donahe and she can also attest I have had VERY close ties to that organization. I stand by what I know to be fact.

[Delete This Account]

I never implied that there has been spin from RW in his tenure here.

 

But it's hard to argue that the people who usually ran his football operations were not competent football people. Shame is one word I can use to describe Pat McGroder's placement on the Wall and Lou Saban's omission.

 

Ralph Wilson is an owner of a buygone era, and it's certainly not fair to compare him to the guys I mentioned before. The newer generation of owners may be motivated by different incentives, yet all of them share the common denominator of the will to win over the will to make a profit. As I said, owning a professional franchise in any sport is more ego driven than profit driven. How each owner responds to his competitive instinct is different, as you have some guys perfectly happy to be patient while others will turn over their teams/coaches with the tides.

 

But having said that, when you put Wilson on a stage with the Rooneys and Maras, the guys who really belong in HoF, he doesn't even come close. All of those guys know more about football than anyone here can imagine. But what separates them from Wilson, they also have a knack of hiring smart football people to run their operations and know when to insert themselves into the football organization and more importantly, not let personal slights affect their business judgments.

 

I don't know Ralph Wilson personally, but picking up tidbits here and there over my 30+ yrs of following the team, make me strongly believe that Wilson is an honorable man who happens to be an awful CEO.

i think he's done well as a CEO, managing his company.

you made a point earlier that the Bills are reaping the benefits of the TV contracts, fox/direct tv etc. ... well, if not for Mr. Wilson, who played a role in upping the ante in helping negotiate a TV contract that provided AFL teams $900,000 each in the mid-60s, and helping ensure that revenue sharing was part of the merger, perhaps the NFL wouldn't be here as it is today.

 

with all due respect, GG, i'm not saying Mr. Wilson doesn't have faults, and shouldn't be questioned on them. but based on the vitriol on this board in which some posters are openly rooting for Mr. Wilson's demise, i argue his case a little strenously in an attempt to provide balance and some sense of perspective.

but that doesn't stop some posters -- and despite the insights i've provided and arguments made -- accuse me of making no case in supporting "the worst owner in the NFL."

when confronted with that type of over the top baloney, i refuse to sit silent.

 

jw

 

ADD: oh, and GG, you did make reference to rhetoric, when writing that you could not "fully buy into Wilson's commitment & rhetoric" in previous post.

[DarthICE]

"One of the worst owners in the league" is a matter of opinion. Per the TOS, "Courtesy is contagious - Just become someone doesn't share your opinion - doesn't make them an idiot." That's something I wish more people around here would remember.

 

Darth, my friend, Owens' marketing impact is a given ... but there's also no denying that the Bills needed another starting WR badly, and Wilson was willing to take the risk of signing T.O. in return for his on-the-field performance. Remember what he told John: "If he becomes a problem, we cut him. But if he's not, we're ahead of the game." (Sorry if that quote isn't exact, JW.)

 

Love ya sweetie!

[Delete This Account]

Lori can attest I am not Tom Donahe and she can also attest I have had VERY close ties to that organization. I stand by what I know to be fact.

and i stand by what i know, but i'm not accusing you of being "absolutely incorrect."

 

jw

[BillsVet]

I'd be interested in hearing what Sully actually said about the media guides ... because if he'd checked a PFWA bulletin from a couple of months back, he would have known that the Bills are merely following a trend that's taking place across all major sports. MLB stopped printing the Red and Green books this year, Ohio State and Michigan no longer have dead-tree versions of their media guides, and the NBA plans to have everything available only in digital format by 2010.

 

As for the NFL, a lot of teams have hacked the crap out of their print versions, sending a lot of stuff online. I know they were planning to hand out flash drives containing all 32 media guides and the R+F Book to certain writers (the national guys, mostly), and the downloads are available on their Web sites. So, this isn't merely some money-grubbing scheme cooked up by the Bills ...

 

Thanks for the heads-up. Not working in media will leave me using Jerry Sullivan as a source, which I should not have done.

 

in my many conversations with Mr. Wilson, i don't know him as a person capable or rhetoric or spin.

as to the Tom Donahoe legacy, this is still an extension of that era, in part because the team got here due to Mr. Wilson's stated reticence to go outside the organization when promoting Russ and hiring Marv because he felt snakebit after bringing in Tom.

by doing the math, the Bills are still dealing with the after-effects post 2005 season.

 

jw

 

John, there's no doubt the wilderness of the 04 and 05 drafts (save Evans and Parrish) have contributed to the mediocre results from 06-08. However, TD has not been here since the 05 season, and as we've seen, rebuilding doesn't have to be a 5 year plan. Sure, UFA doesn't allow the bigger names to hit, but solid drafting combined with good coaching should facilitate teams improving quickly.

 

Furthermore, the direction we've seen has placed a premium since 06 on skill positions. Poz, McKelvin, Lynch, and others seem to be or will be solid starters. But at OT they've jettisoned their best player (there's much more to that story) and haven't drafted a pass rusher on the first day until Maybin.

 

If RW wants to run the organization, so be it. It's his team at the end of the day. But he's not a personnel evaluator, and the people charged with this aren't all that good. TD may have been responsible for 01-05, but 06-07 when Levy was here weren't stellar, at least not yet.

[DarthICE]

and i stand by what i know, but i'm not accusing you of being "absolutely incorrect."

 

jw

 

Well I respect your opinion and respect the vigor of your stance on this issue. But as I said, I too have heard from direct sources and I know what I have been told and will stand by it as well.

 

I guess my friend we just agree to disagree

 

And for the record I do apologize I feel my initial response WAS a little strong.

[birdog1960]

no, i think this is the new history being provided by young and new posters who fail to even check the intrawebs for facts, because it's easier to make them up to go forward with their own inept agenda. this whole discussion is getting tiresome because the posters making their cases -- GG excluded -- can't seem to deal with reality and history.

 

if that's the case, i can't believe Hank Bullough was dismissed after getting the Bills to the Super Bowl, and how the Bills lost the NFL title in 1958 is beyond me.

 

sheesh!

 

jw

 

ADD: exceptions also to New Hampshire, BillNYC , who have provided relevant arguments in this discussion.

I'll bet these posters are just overjoyed to get your little nod of approval! I'm terribly offended in not being mentioneed (oops, better catch that misspelled word or I'll be disciplined by the master). Pontification is just as offensive as vitriol to many of us. So if you don't like the vitriol, stop the holier than thou crap.

I'm certain that you know much more of the history and inside workings of the NFL than I but I'm even more certain that I know much more about my field of expertise than you. That doesn't mean that every conclusion I make in my field is better than the one you might draw in opposition from the same general evidence. The historical corrections you made to those disagreeing with you do not in any way change the conclusion that Ralph Wilson has been a subpar owner, is unlikely to improve. and is the legitimate target of fan vitriol.

Now, if you could please enlighten me, great one, regarding Ralph's motivation to keep the team in Buffalo all these years, I would greatly appreciate it. While many here would like him beatified for this (much less put in the HOF), I wonder if he is merely keeping his word by not moving the franchise. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong (and do it with vitriol if that pleases you) , but didn't the NFL pledge before congress at the time of the merger that franchises would stay put to avoid anti trust questions. If that's his reason for staying (i.e. keeping his word) then it's certainly honorable relative to some of his colleagues but hardly worthy of adulation.

[GG]

i think he's done well as a CEO, managing his company.

you made a point earlier that the Bills are reaping the benefits of the TV contracts, fox/direct tv etc. ... well, if not for Mr. Wilson, who played a role in upping the ante in helping negotiate a TV contract that provided AFL teams $900,000 each in the mid-60s, and helping ensure that revenue sharing was part of the merger, perhaps the NFL wouldn't be here as it is today.

 

with all due respect, GG, i'm not saying Mr. Wilson doesn't have faults, and shouldn't be questioned on them. but based on the vitriol on this board in which some posters are openly rooting for Mr. Wilson's demise, i argue his case a little strenously in an attempt to provide balance and some sense of perspective.

but that doesn't stop some posters -- and despite the insights i've provided and arguments made -- accuse me of making no case in supporting "the worst owner in the NFL."

when confronted with that type of over the top baloney, i refuse to sit silent.

 

jw

 

You probably are more sensitive to the polarity of posters given your profession, but for most here, the deathwishes are taken as mere Internet posturing.

 

As for league history, I'm also in the camp that even if AFL didn't survive thanks to RW's efforts in the '60s, the NFL would have been just as big and strong today - but maybe without a Buffalo franchise. It's a given that the NBC contract saved the AFL, and enabled it to compete on better footing with the NFL. But if the AFL did not receive the TV money, the league would likely have folded. Still, the NFL would have expanded just like the other professional leagues did at the end of the '60s/early '70s. If the hypothetical expansion was in '68-'72, Buffalo probably gets an NFL franchise. If it happens later, then Buffalo probably doesn't get a franchise, but NFL still grows.

[Delete This Account]

I'll bet these posters are just overjoyed to get you're little nod of approval! I'm terribly offended in not being mentioneed (oops, better catch that misspelled word or I'll be disciplined by the master). Pontification is just as offensive as vitriol to many of us. So if you don't like the vitriol, stop the holier than thou crap.

I'm certain that you know much more of the history and inside workings of the NFL than I but I'm even more certain that I know much more about my field of expertise than you. That doesn't mean that every conclusion I make in my field is better than the one you might draw in opposition from the same general evidence. The historical corrections you made to those disagreeing with you do not in any way change the conclusion that Ralph Wilson has been a subpar owner, is unlikely to improve. and is the legitimate target of fan vitriol.

Now, if you could please enlighten me, great one, regarding Ralph's motivation to keep the team in Buffalo all these years, I would greatly appreciate it. While many here would like him beatified for this (much less put in the HOF), I wonder if he is merely keeping his word by not moving the franchise. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong (and do it with vitriol if that pleases you) , but didn't the NFL pledge before congress at the time of the merger that franchises would stay put to avoid anti trust questions. If that's his reason for staying (i.e. keeping his word) then it's certainly honorable relative to some of his colleagues but hardly worthy of adulation.

from the tone of your post, it's become obvious that you'll find fault with whatever response i provide you, so i don't see a reason for wading in for another round of your accusations and name-calling.

it's quite evident your mind is made up, and you're very much entitled to that.

 

jw

[Delete This Account]

You probably are more sensitive to the polarity of posters given your profession, but for most here, the deathwishes are taken as mere Internet posturing.

 

As for league history, I'm also in the camp that even if AFL didn't survive thanks to RW's efforts in the '60s, the NFL would have been just as big and strong today - but maybe without a Buffalo franchise. It's a given that the NBC contract saved the AFL, and enabled it to compete on better footing with the NFL. But if the AFL did not receive the TV money, the league would likely have folded. Still, the NFL would have expanded just like the other professional leagues did at the end of the '60s/early '70s. If the hypothetical expansion was in '68-'72, Buffalo probably gets an NFL franchise. If it happens later, then Buffalo probably doesn't get a franchise, but NFL still grows.

that's one for the old Marvel Comics "What If?" series.

given the rate of pro sports expansion in the late 60s and 70s and, the flurry in the 1990s, you're more than likely correct.

and who knows about Buffalo?

what i find intriguing, and maybe i'm a sentimentalist or merely an underdog rooter, is how this group of businessmen (and they were rich, no doubt) proudly took on the mantle of The Foolish Club and gave the NFL a run for its money. few upstart leagues -- the World Hockey League and the ABA, are the few that come to mind -- that managed to make a dent.

 

that earns them something. and considering that Mr. Wilson is the only owner still around with the same team in the same market, well there's something more to it than longevity, and that's where the debate begins depending your point of view.

 

jw