It all starts at the top...

[ThereIsNoDog]

The criticism of Ralph Wilson from the fans and local media in western NY is very tame. If he was the owner of such a pathetic team in Philly, NY, Chicago, Boston etc he would have been run out of town a long time ago. They wouldn't tolerate his shyster behavior the way he is tolerated in Buffalo. In my view I consider him to be an embarrassment.

LMMFAO! "He would have been run out of town?" Care to name any examples of this ever happening? I know that many owners have "run out of town" with their (not the city's, as some people are deluded to believe) team.

 

But who's the bigger fool? Ralph, or you who criticize him, yet continue to watch the team like lemmings?

[JohnC]

LMMFAO! "He would have been run out of town?" Care to name any examples of this ever happening? I know that many owners have "run out of town" with their (not the city's, as some people are deluded to believe) team.

 

But who's the bigger fool? Ralph, or you who criticize him, yet continue to watch the team like lemmings?

 

The point is simple although exagerated. The criticism the owner of the Bills gets from the home town fans and local media is very mild compared to markets such as Philly, NY, Boston, Chicago etc. Do you deny that assessment?

 

As far as continuing to watch their games you are off base again. I used to watch every game on the dish. I don't do it now. Some games I watch and other times I either watch other games or find something else to do. The product on the field has become very unpalatable to watch. It is not the losing as much as the caliber of play that makes it tough to view. The entertainment value is very minimal.

[Rico]

I said this in another thread, but I just wanted to add

Ralph.

[BillsVet]

BillsVet, There is nothing mysterious about Littman. Don't make him out to be a boogeyman. He is acting on the orders of the owner and serving the interest of the owner. When the battles between Littman and Polian became too belligerant the owner sided with the finance man and jettisoned Polian. That was an easy decision for the owner to make: more money over competitiveness.

 

Even when Butler and A. J. Smith tookover the reigns from Polian the constant battles with Wilson's and Littman over money issues resulted in the inevitable: their departure and the continuation of the organizational structure which stressed financial perspectives over football perspectives.

 

Fans of the team get frustrated that the owner has not relied on top shelf football people to guide his miserable team. They are perplexed over the issue, especially when they see the Falcons and the Dolphins quickly turn things around when their respective owners installed quality football executives to run their franchises. There should be no surprise by anyone who has followed the half century ownership of HIS team. He maintains this backward management style simply because it has proved lucrative for him. It is as simple as that.

 

Littman just seems to be in the shadows, hence my terming it "lurking." I think the both of us know this guy tells RW what he wants to hear, as in how to make more money. But you're right, he's there among the inner circle as much as RB.

 

While driving home, Jerry Sullivan noted that the Bills are not printing as many media guides this year to save money. To me, a NFL team doing this is unfathomable. Buffalo may not be raking in the money Jerry Jones or Bob Kraft do, but saving on paper? Sullivan noted that the Bills spend on bad players but cannot use the same amount of paper as last year and it's a valid point. It's not as if the team doesn't spend money, it's on which players. Tripplett, Royal, Kelsay, Schobel, P. Price, Dockery, Walker...the list goes on and on.

 

It's my belief that RW has decided to pack it in. He's not going to make any more long term decisions than he has to given his advanced age. He wants to set up his family as well as he can when the team goes to sale. Littman is merely helping him achieve this end-state. There were reportedly 2 votes for keeping DJ and 2 opposing. I believe it was RW and Littman, and those are the most important votes.

[dave mcbride]

LMMFAO! "He would have been run out of town?" Care to name any examples of this ever happening? I know that many owners have "run out of town" with their (not the city's, as some people are deluded to believe) team.

 

But who's the bigger fool? Ralph, or you who criticize him, yet continue to watch the team like lemmings?

Technically, they weren't run out of town, but practically speaking ...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Braman

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Orthwein

 

EDIT: I forgot this guy:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Behring

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

He can't last much longer. And either way...we get an owner that cares enough to put a winner on the field or the team moves, we'll ALL be better off.

[ThereIsNoDog]

The point is simple although exagerated. The criticism the owner of the Bills gets from the home town fans and local media is very mild compared to markets such as Philly, NY, Boston, Chicago etc. Do you deny that assessment?

Do you think that owners care about the criticism they receive, no matter the market? Really?

 

As far as continuing to watch their games you are off base again. I used to watch every game on the dish. I don't do it now. Some games I watch and other times I either watch other games or find something else to do. The product on the field has become very unpalatable to watch. It is not the losing as much as the caliber of play that makes it tough to view. The entertainment value is very minimal.

Yet here you are, posting on a Buffalo Bills message board.

[ThereIsNoDog]

Technically, they weren't run out of town, but practically speaking ...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Braman

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Orthwein

 

EDIT: I forgot this guy:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Behring

These guys were no more run out of town than Wayne Huizenga was in Miami. Some owners simply want to cash-out and not own the team forever.

[ThereIsNoDog]

He can't last much longer. And either way...we get an owner that cares enough to put a winner on the field or the team moves, we'll ALL be better off.

Quite possibly one of the dumbest statements I've ever read.

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

So many good posts on this thread, especially from long time Bills followers. I was aware of the Bills in the 60's and became a fanatical fan in 1973 at the age of 17. A few points:

 

1.) Although there was a mild threat to move the team to Seattle in the 70's, it was really not that big a deal that Ralph kept the team in Buffalo for at least 3/4 of their 50 year history. The stadium (which the county built) was sold out in the 70's and 80's when the team had any reasonable success on the field. The Bills led the league in attendance many years because they had 80,020 seats in those days, larger than nearly every other stadium. The discrepancy in ticket prices or corporate suites with bigger cities was not that large in those days. In short, Buffalo was a perfectly fine place financially compared to other NFL teams for most of its history. Teams that left, like the Browns or Oilers, often had stadium issues which Buffalo didn't have for a long time after the OP stadium was built.

 

2.) Ralph had and has a bad combination of being both cheap and stubborn when dealing with his coaches and GM's and eventually turns off all the good ones. The bottom line is I don't think it bothers him that he only had 17 winning seasons out of 49. He got his way and saved money and that is his bottom line.

 

3.) The hall of fame selection had really nothing to do with keeping the team in Buffalo. It was that he saved the AFL and helped pave the way for the merger with the NFL. Ralph has been given credit in the past for being concerned about the league and not just his team. I wish he would have been more selfish to worry about his team's success on the field and not care about the league.

[Lori]

Littman just seems to be in the shadows, hence my terming it "lurking." I think the both of us know this guy tells RW what he wants to hear, as in how to make more money. But you're right, he's there among the inner circle as much as RB.

 

While driving home, Jerry Sullivan noted that the Bills are not printing as many media guides this year to save money. To me, a NFL team doing this is unfathomable. Buffalo may not be raking in the money Jerry Jones or Bob Kraft do, but saving on paper? Sullivan noted that the Bills spend on bad players but cannot use the same amount of paper as last year and it's a valid point. It's not as if the team doesn't spend money, it's on which players. Tripplett, Royal, Kelsay, Schobel, P. Price, Dockery, Walker...the list goes on and on.

 

It's my belief that RW has decided to pack it in. He's not going to make any more long term decisions than he has to given his advanced age. He wants to set up his family as well as he can when the team goes to sale. Littman is merely helping him achieve this end-state. There were reportedly 2 votes for keeping DJ and 2 opposing. I believe it was RW and Littman, and those are the most important votes.

I'd be interested in hearing what Sully actually said about the media guides ... because if he'd checked a PFWA bulletin from a couple of months back, he would have known that the Bills are merely following a trend that's taking place across all major sports. MLB stopped printing the Red and Green books this year, Ohio State and Michigan no longer have dead-tree versions of their media guides, and the NBA plans to have everything available only in digital format by 2010.

 

As for the NFL, a lot of teams have hacked the crap out of their print versions, sending a lot of stuff online. I know they were planning to hand out flash drives containing all 32 media guides and the R+F Book to certain writers (the national guys, mostly), and the downloads are available on their Web sites. So, this isn't merely some money-grubbing scheme cooked up by the Bills ...

[Delete This Account]

I said this in another thread, but I just wanted to add

Ralph.

and guess what, it's as meanspirited and wrong now as it was in the other thread. come back when you're able to provide the semblance of an argument that dignifies respectful debate.

 

jw

[Delete This Account]

I'd be interested in hearing what Sully actually said about the media guides ... because if he'd checked a PFWA bulletin from a couple of months back, he would have known that the Bills are merely following a trend that's taking place across all major sports. MLB stopped printing the Red and Green books this year, Ohio State and Michigan no longer have dead-tree versions of their media guides, and the NBA plans to have everything available only in digital format by 2010.

 

As for the NFL, a lot of teams have hacked the crap out of their print versions, sending a lot of stuff online. I know they were planning to hand out flash drives containing all 32 media guides and the R+F Book to certain writers (the national guys, mostly), and the downloads are available on their Web sites. So, this isn't merely some money-grubbing scheme cooked up by the Bills ...

with all due respect to Sully, Lori you're on the right track here. the trend is moving away from printed media guides.

most NHL teams, including the Sabres, did away with them last season. that might be OK when it comes to saving paper, etc. .... but it's a little troublesome and mystifying to us in the business, who rely on an actual printed page to make notes upon and refer at the brink of deadline.

to the Bills credit, at least they've made some media guides available to us in the press box.

my problem with the media guide debate is that there was once a trend by professional sports teams to produce fancy, expansive guides printed on expensive paper. well, teams started realizing the cost to produce these things.

my point is, i can go to a local copy store and have the media guide printed for about $27 a copy, which is what I did with the Sabres guide.

there's no reason why teams can't do this for its beat reporters at a relatively low cost.

 

jw

[Delete This Account]

Littmann has had a very long relationship with Wilson and it extends beyond the Buffalo Bills.

had a long chat with Jeff Littmann at training camp and he struck me as a very good guy. but know this, no one runs this team aside from Mr. Wilson (there i go looking stupid again! god, will i ever learn). he is the one who makes all the decisions, good and bad, however you might perceive them.

he is the one who ordered Russ to sign TO. he is the one, who agreed to the Toronto deal. and if you think Mr. Wilson speaks poorly about the WNY economy, you should hear him discuss Detroit.

the one thing people need to know is that Ralph Wilson is a straight shooter whose word is gold (and that's a noble quality that should be cherished beyond wins and losses), and who has forgotten more about football than I will ever know. yes, there have been some questionable decisions, but this is his team. and those rooting for a new owner, might be bemoaning that wish whenever that sad day happens.

 

jw

[Lori]

with all due respect to Sully, Lori you're on the right track here. the trend is moving away from printed media guides.

most NHL teams, including the Sabres, did away with them last season. that might be OK when it comes to saving paper, etc. .... but it's a little troublesome and mystifying to us in the business, who rely on an actual printed page to make notes upon and refer at the brink of deadline.

to the Bills credit, at least they've made some media guides available to us in the press box.

my problem with the media guide debate is that there was once a trend by professional sports teams to produce fancy, expansive guides printed on expensive paper. well, teams started realizing the cost to produce these things.

my point is, i can go to a local copy store and have the media guide printed for about $27 a copy, which is what I did with the Sabres guide.

there's no reason why teams can't do this for its beat reporters at a relatively low cost.

 

jw

Agreed.

 

Just got the CD in the mail today. I imagine it'll go on a shelf somewhere with the ones from the last couple of years, and I'll hope that the store at OBD still has some books when I get up there Thursday, because a shiny piece of plastic doesn't do me much good unless I drag a computer along with it, which can be inconvenient when settling arguments in a bar or a stadium parking lot. And come to think of it, the Age of Technology didn't have much to say when the lights went out for the first half of the San Diego game. Maybe that's why I enjoyed that game so much ...

[Rico]

and guess what, it's as meanspirited and wrong now as it was in the other thread. come back when you're able to provide the semblance of an argument that dignifies respectful debate.

 

jw

[Delete This Account]

He can't last much longer. And either way...we get an owner that cares enough to put a winner on the field or the team moves, we'll ALL be better off.

mother of god ... do you realize you're referring to an actual human being and not some fantasy player or xbox figure. sheesh, Joe. i know we've had some disagreements, but hoping for what your hoping for is in bad taste.

this is sports, not something all that important in the big scheme of things.

loosen the grip.

 

jw

[Rico]

mother of god ... do you realize you're referring to an actual human being and not some fantasy player or xbox figure. sheesh, Joe. i know we've had some disagreements, but hoping for what your hoping for is in bad taste.

this is sports, not something all that important in the big scheme of things.

loosen the grip.

 

jw

No, this is a message board, welcome to the internet.

[Lori]

No, this is a message board, welcome to the internet.

That makes it acceptable?

 

Bread and circuses, and a faint whiff of smoke in the air while Nero tunes up his fiddle ...

[billsfan89]

Leave Ralph Wilson alone. Any other owner would have let this team leave town by now but Ralph has committed himself to keeping this team in Buffalo. Any other owner would have jumped at the chance to move this team to Toronto or LA but Ralph hasn't. Ralph has won two AFL titles and been to 4 Super Bowls as an owner few can stake claim to that.

 

Now I am not saying Ralph doesn't have his flaws. Yes at times Ralph seems Penny wise and dollar stupid when it comes to things like hiring GM's and coaches but overall I would say a guy that passes up a big dump truck full of money in order to keep a team in Buffalo is a good owner.

 

So be thankful Ralph is our owner because if he wasn't than there might be a Toronto Bills or even worse a LA Bills (Or whatever other stupid name they would take) instead of a Buffalo Bills. So before we jump all over the owner because we haven't had success recently we should remember that he has passed up tons of chances to move the team (Chances that could have netted him big money).