John Mackey's solution to the health care "crisis"

[Gene Frenkle]

(Wonders whether it's worth discussing facts and science with you. Decides it is not.)

 

Thanks for steering me straight. I'm going to go buy some petroleum-fertilized produce now. And also get me some corn-fed and chemically-immunized cow meat.

No matter how intelligent or knowledgeable, everyone has their sacred cows...which is why clear-cut facts always win out with me. I generally agree with a lot of what you say, but the science is clear on this issue and you're unfortunately wrong in this case. No big deal.

[Gene Frenkle]

Ok, here's a really good glance at the issue. Notice that there is also mp3 audio if you'd prefer to listen to the action podcast. Skeptoid is great, has relatively short episodes with a long list of topics to read about/listen to.

 

article: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4166

 

podcast: http://skeptoid.com/audio/skeptoid-4166.mp3

[Chef Jim]

That's not the way that it's marketed.

 

It's marketed as organic and sustainable. Have never seen it marketed as more healthy. What/who do you think they're sustaining. Not you. It's not their fault you don't understand what it means.

[Chef Jim]

The only real real reasons why a rational person might buy organic food on a regular basis is the taste, shopping experience, etc... If you're banking on the nutritional difference or overall health of organic vs. non-organic, you're only fooling yourself and paying for a misinformed lifestyle. As was pointed out, like many "processed" foods, corn syrup is not necessarily the evil substance that it is made out to be.

 

The one that I really have to laugh at is "GM" foods. Every food we eat today has been genetically modified over many many years by way of artificial human selection. Even the "organic" foods. You probably wouldn't recognize half of the fruits and vegetables at Whole Foods if you saw them in their natural state, say 200 or 300 years ago.

 

Read my posts about organics. It has nothing to do with healthy eating.

[Fingon]

It's marketed as organic and sustainable. Have never seen it marketed as more healthy. What/who do you think they're sustaining. Not you. It's not their fault you don't understand what it means.

Come on, don't be so ignorant. Do you really think the whole "no pesticide, hormones, anti-biotics, etc.." sh-- is put there to make people think about farm sustainability?

[John Adams]

Good for you! Industrial farming techniques = increased yield per acre = less people go hungry.

Although if you want to be really responsible, you'd cut out beef entirely.

 

I do but that's besides the point. IF you want to eat beef, there are better farms out there that don't shovel corn down their throats (cows are not made for corn-eating) and make them live in their own sh--....and what they do to pigs is perhaps worse. Pigs get so stressed in the big hog farm kennels that they eat each other's tails. And those are not the really bad stories--just the day to day stuff.

 

I don't advocate getting rid of big farms but things can be done much, much better. The corn industry is an abomination. It's driving farmers into the ground and forces massive and overproduction of a single product that then gets forced down people's gullets at a prodigious rate. And those corn fields are fed petroleum--that of course runs off into feed and water.

 

There are ways to industrially farm that aren't as barbaric as we do them now--and that won't drive prices through the roof. It's hard to change the system though because the consumer just sees the end product (ooh look, Lucky Charms!) and not the process.

[Gene Frenkle]

Read my posts about organics. It has nothing to do with healthy eating.

Well you're right, but it appears to me that most people believe it's healthier.

[Chef Jim]

Come on, don't be so ignorant. Do you really think the whole "no pesticide, hormones, anti-biotics, etc.." sh-- is put there to make people think about farm sustainability?

 

No the whole "no pesticides, hormones, anti-biotics is done for the good of the planet. The fact that most people are ignorant of that is their fault. See even a die hard, cold hearted, passionless, bastard, conservative like myself can still care about the planet. And the cool thing is all the organic/sustainable farmers did it on their own without government mandates.

 

Well you're right, but it appears to me that most people believe it's healthier.

 

Because it is healthier because when was the last time you saw an organic burger and shake at McDonalds.

 

Healthy eating is the result not the purpose.

[Gene Frenkle]

No the whole "no pesticides, hormones, anti-biotics is done for the good of the planet. The fact that most people are ignorant of that is their fault. See even a die hard, cold hearted, passionless, bastard, conservative like myself can still care about the planet. And the cool thing is all the organic/sustainable farmers did it on their own without government mandates.

 

 

 

Because it is healthier because when was the last time you saw an organic burger and shake at McDonalds.

 

Healthy eating is the result not the purpose.

Not really...sacred cows...

[Chef Jim]

Not really...sacred cows...

 

Sacred cows?

[John Adams]

Come on, don't be so ignorant. Do you really think the whole "no pesticide, hormones, anti-biotics, etc.." sh-- is put there to make people think about farm sustainability?

 

You're mixing things up here. There is probably little difference between the organic apple and the pesticided one.

 

But as Chef says, there are different ways of farming. We may be so !@#$ing overrun with people that the only way to farm and feed all the mouths is to keep pumping the farms full of petroleum and grow corn out the ass. If that's true, then thank you very much, I will continue to shop at the better and less industrial farms and pay the premium. First, I find the produce to be better by far. Second, it's just a right thing to do, like turning off unused lights, recycling, and picking up trash.

 

As far as hormones and antibiotics, those are meat issues and they are very real. What happens in the mass-produced meat system in the US is horrific. Everyone with half a brain knows they couldn't really stomach seeing what happens in that machine. We can all hide behind a flip remark ("As long as it tastes good, I don't care") or more likely ignore the stories, but I'm quite sure it would plague anyone to see the system in action. But, as I said before, there are much better ways. Is it really necessary to pump cows full of antibiotics? No--they need them because they are being fed corn (which they are not ideally suited to digest--cows are grass-eaters) and live in their own feces--and live in tiny pens with nowhere to move....so they get sick all the time without all the drugs?

 

I'd rather eat a grass-fed cow that lived for a while on an actual range of grass instead of a dirt or blacktop cage. It just strikes me as humane and decent. Not in a PETA thumping whacko way--just in a "Look we can do better than this" way.

 

Not a lecture. Just some choices. If everyone went "organic," whatever that means but just assume for a second that it means something like buying food from people who farm with a conscience, maybe there wouldn't be enough organic food to go around. At the moment, that question is not/has not been put to the test because although it's a growing industry, organic foods are still in a vast minority.

[Magox]

Sacred cows?

basically means that you ignore the facts, you probably already knew that

[Chef Jim]

Sacred cows?

 

[Gene Frenkle]

You guys have a lot of good intentions that are really misplaced. Instead of clinging to your strongly-held beliefs, maybe you should do some reading. Sorry if that comes off in an arrogant way - it's not meant to.

 

Incidentally, the humane treatment of animals argument is a good one. Industrial farms would do well to improve their treatment of livestock. The 'organic foods are better for me and my environment' argument simply does not hold up under any amount of real scrutiny.

[Gene Frenkle]

[John Adams]

You guys have a lot of good intentions that are really misplaced. Instead of clinging to your strongly-held beliefs, maybe you should do some reading. Sorry if that comes off in an arrogant way - it's not meant to.

 

Incidentally, the humane treatment of animals argument is a good one. Industrial farms would do well to improve their treatment of livestock. The 'organic foods are better for me and my environment' argument simply does not hold up under any amount of real scrutiny.

 

You are talking to Chef and I on this topic. We're not liberals. I can't speak for him but I've done a lot of reading. I am comfortable with my decision to try to, as best I can, avoid the artificial chemical-ing of food/earth. Are organic farms perfect? No. Some organic farms are inefficient as balls. The lack of certain chemicals may promote less healthy produce, especially by the time it gets to a shelf. And in some cases, an organic farm may have a larger carbon footprint.

 

That said, I am more comfortable buying outside the food machine. It's a comfort level born of both facts and conscience. I try to buy local produce from the local inefficient farm. I try to buy at least US-grown produce during the winter--passing up Argenine strawberries in February.

 

That doesn't mean that on a road trip, I never buy fast food or processed eats. I merely try to do better.

[DC Tom]

That doesn't mean that on a road trip, I never buy fast food or processed eats. I merely try to do better.

 

That's the real key, I think - the argument seems to be less "organic vs. industrial farming" than "organic farming vs. processed foods".

 

My biggest beef isn't with people who say "organic foods are healthier" (hey, some people believe in crystals...what do I care), but the hypocrites like my sister-in-law who eat organically and simultaneously want to feed the planet. Yeah, good luck with that when your yields drop by a third per acre, BEFORE the insects devour everything because you don't use pesticides.

[Magox]

The 'organic foods are better for me and my environment' argument simply does not hold up under any amount of real scrutiny.

You know that this argument that you are making is not entirely true. It is fact that inorganic fertilizers affects the waterways which of course kills fish. It is also fact that inorganic fertilizers sterilize nutrients that are grown in land.

 

it is also fact that Nitrous Oxide is a green house gas and if you believe in that Global Warming thingy then you would also believe that it does negatively affect the stratosphere.

 

When Nitrous Oxide is used in high amounts, such as many of the processed meats producers, these fertilizers and animal manures create problems for the stratosphere.

 

The argument for 'Organic' meats and vegetables is that Nitrous Oxide is either not used, or not used in large amounts.

 

So, directly speaking your argument is somewhat true, but in practical terms, it doesn't hold water.

[John Adams]

That's the real key, I think - the argument seems to be less "organic vs. industrial farming" than "organic farming vs. processed foods".

 

Yes: I'm not advocating that the world only eat hand-picked food. What I am saying is that the food-producing machine needs some fundamental changes and the reason they are not made is because the consumer just sees the box of Luck Charms, a shiny apple, and a lb of ground beef--not all the sh-- done beforehand. If consumers shopped with a touch more thought, the food-producing machine would produce better (in more ways than just taste) food.

 

By going to Whole Foods, do I guarantee that the farmer who grew the corn didn't dump a gallon of pesticide into the local river? Nope. But I put some faith in the brand's attempt to do better. And yes, I know that in some ways, they do not do better. And the same goes for my local farms--when I go to them, I can't gaurantee that they are injecting their chickens and cows with hormones but at least it seems they aren't and I can see the cows and chickens.

 

I have seen and read about much of what happens to produce and livestock in our current system. I know I want no part of that when I can avoid it.

[Chef Jim]

You guys have a lot of good intentions that are really misplaced. Instead of clinging to your strongly-held beliefs, maybe you should do some reading. Sorry if that comes off in an arrogant way - it's not meant to.

 

Incidentally, the humane treatment of animals argument is a good one. Industrial farms would do well to improve their treatment of livestock. The 'organic foods are better for me and my environment' argument simply does not hold up under any amount of real scrutiny.

 

And we can also tell you that you're not doing your reading or research as well. I know that when I buy sustainable food (produce, meat etc) that it is truly what it says it is. You just don't go to the market and because it's in the "Organic" aisle assume that they follow true organic/sustainable farming. But when you go to a farmers market and you know where that food is coming from and have done your research on that farm you know what you're getting.

 

When I buy meat from this guy or produce from this guy or my wine from this winery I know I'm getting what they're advertising. So what reading should we be doing?