I'd like your thoughts

[_BiB_]

It still bothers me that you folks are praising Kerry like he were Audie Murphy, and he used three purple hearts that he never missed any duty over to get his ass out of the line of fire four months after he got there. Then he comes back and trashes the very people he abandoned. A true combat leader, and it has been my great priveledge to know several-wouldn't have considered a purple heart unless they were in the hospital. Their first priority would be to get out of the hospital, and back to their men.

 

3 PH's in four month's? How does this compare with the rate for the rest of the unit? Has this guy ever heard of the word duck?

 

I posted the same thought, more or less in a few places-but it gets lost. Have any of you trying to convince the others that Kerry is this magnificant war hero thought about this? This is something that truly bothers me about Kerry's character. I imagine that many of you have not worn the uniform, let alone have been shot at in one. It's just my experience, maybe some of you know different-that anyone fitting the scenario described above would be considered at best, a slacker and at worst, a coward. This could maybe be expected of a private draftee, but not of an officer who swore an oath and supposedly lives by the principle of "Know your men and always look out for their welfare". He not only abandoned his command, he returned home and assaulted the honor and dignity of those he abandoned. I am reminded of a story I heard on NPR, of all places of a young Army Sergeant recently seriously wounded in Iraq. He was brought back to Walter Reed, received treatment and therapy and was being interviewed from-guess where? Iraq. As soon as he were able he returned to his unit because (paraphrasing, I don't recall the exact words) "This is my unit, these are my buddies-and I don't feel right sitting there in the states while they continue the fight. We went there together, and we'll come home together".

 

This from a 20 something junior NCO. An infantry team leader.

 

That, my friends is the band of brothers. That is reporting for duty. Not this charade being argued about day after day after day.

 

Will you please, at least consider this? I don't know how many of you out there have-but I've been in these types of situations and have witnessed myself the quiet courage that doesn't make the headlines, never gets heard about at all. People who did their jobs, looked out for their fellow soldiers, sometimes paying a price-but for the most part doing it in quiet dignity. It would never have occurred to these men in a thousand years to come home and throw their medals, go on TV and talk about the atrocities their brothers committed...it just wouldn't happen.

 

End of rant. End of plea. I just ask that you at least consider this.

[stuckincincy]

It was, is, and with hope will remain, BiB...unlikely we shall ever meet, but if so, I've got your six.

 

The below doesn't directly relate, I know, but I'd like to think it imparts some insight why some act as you say..

 

"A week before the battle of Bull Run, Sullivan Ballou, a Major in the 2nd

Rhode Island Volunteers, wrote home to his wife in Smithfield.

 

July 14th, 1861

 

My dear Sarah.

The indications are very strong that we shall move in a few days -- perhaps tomorrow. Lest I should not be able to write you again, I feel impelled to write lines that may fall under your eye when I shall be no more.

 

Our movement may be one of a few days duration and full of pleasure -- and it may be one of severe conflict and death to me. Not my will, but thine 0 God, be done. If it is necessary that I should fall on the battlefield for my country, I am ready. I have no misgivings about, or lack of confidence in, the cause in which I am engaged, and my courage does not halt or falter. I know how strongly American Civilization now leans upon the triumph of the Government, and how great a debt we owe to those who went before us through the blood and suffering of the Revolution. And I am willing -- perfectly willing -- to lay down all my joys in this life, to help maintain this Government, and to pay that debt.

 

But, my dear wife, when I know that with my own joys I lay down nearly all of yours, and replace them in this life with cares and sorrows -- when, after having eaten for long years the bitter fruit of orphanage myself, I must offer it as their only sustenance to my dear little children -- is it weak or dishonorable, while the banner of my purpose floats calmly and proudly in the breeze, that my unbounded love for you, my darling wife and children, should struggle in fierce, though useless, contest with my love of country?

 

I cannot describe to you my feelings on this calm summer night, when two thousand men are sleeping around me, many of them enjoying the last, perhaps, before that of death -- and I, suspicious that Death is creeping behind me with his fatal dart, am communing with God, my country, and thee.

 

I have sought most closely and diligently, and often in my breast, for a wrong motive in thus hazarding the happiness of those I loved and I could not find one. A pure love of my country and of the principles have often advocated before the people and "the name of honor that I love more than I fear death" have called upon me, and I have obeyed.

 

Sarah, my love for you is deathless, it seems to bind me to you with mighty cables that nothing but Omnipotence could break; and yet my love of Country comes over me like a strong wind and bears me irresistibly on with all these chains to the battlefield.

 

The memories of the blissful moments I have spent with you come creeping over me, and I feel most gratified to God and to you that I have enjoyed them so long. And hard it is for me to give them up and burn to ashes the hopes of future years, when God willing, we might still have lived and loved together and seen our sons grow up to honorable manhood around us. I have, I know, but few and small claims upon Divine Providence, but something whispers to me -- perhaps it is the wafted prayer of my little Edgar -- that I shall return to my loved ones unharmed. If I do not, my dear Sarah, never forget how much I love you, and when my last breath escapes me on the battlefield, it will whisper your name.

 

Forgive my many faults, and the many pains I have caused you. How thoughtless and foolish I have oftentimes been! How gladly would I wash out with my tears every little spot upon your happiness, and struggle with all the misfortune of this world, to shield you and my children from harm. But I cannot. I must watch you from the spirit land and hover near you, while you buffet the storms with your precious little freight, and wait with sad patience till we meet to part no more.

 

But, O Sarah! If the dead can come back to this earth and flit unseen around those they loved, I shall always be near you; in the garish day and in the darkest night -- amidst your happiest scenes and gloomiest hours -- always, always; and if there be a soft breeze upon your cheek, it shall be my breath; or the cool air fans your throbbing temple, it shall be my spirit passing by.

 

Sarah, do not mourn me dead; think I am gone and wait for thee, for we shall meet again.

As for my little boys, they will grow as I have done, and never know a father's love and care. Little Willie is too young to remember me long, and my blue-eyed Edgar will keep my frolics with him among the dimmest memories of his childhood. Sarah, I have unlimited confidence in your maternal care and your development of their characters. Tell my two mothers his and hers I call God's blessing upon them. O Sarah, I wait for you there! Come to me, and lead thither my children.

 

 

Major Ballou was killed a week later at the 1st Battle of Bull Run."

[BRH]

In a vacuum, your points have some validity.

 

I think the reason your argument isn't stronger is that, by any measure, when John Kerry's service to this nation during Vietnam is stacked up against George W. Bush's, there is absolutely no contest at all.

 

So Kerry came home from Vietnam after four months of combat. Not only did George Bush not set foot outside this country, he got a transfer to another state's Guard so he could work on a political campaign, then missed his flight physical, then didn't show up for drills, and finally was released early so he could go to business school. And while Kerry has produced several witnesses who attest not only to his presence but his bravery in Vietnam, Bush has yet to produce one credible witness who can attest to his PRESENCE at drills in Alabama. Who can be fairly said to have done his duty? Certainly not Bush.

 

If Bush had done a full year's combat tour in Vietnam, don't you think his supporters would be on a teeny bit stronger ground criticizing Kerry's four months there?

 

With regard to Kerry's anti-war activities, I think the majority of this country today thinks our involvement in Vietnam was a mistake and needlessly wasted the lives of over 57,000 Americans. It's unfortunate and tragic that the civilian portion of the anti-war movement included the returning soldiers in its wrath. Most of the returning veterans who were against the war -- including John Kerry -- did not do this. The Winter Soldier Investigation and Kerry's subsequent testimony to the Senate FRC were intended to expose the wrongheaded policies that our government was forcing the troops to effectuate in Vietnam, not as an indictment of the troops themselves.

 

I disagree that he "assaulted the honor and dignity of those he had abandoned." His target clearly was the government that put them in such an untenable situation. I.e.,

 

We are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country?  Where is the leadership?  We are here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatric, and so many others.  Where are they now that we, the men whom they sent off to war, have returned?

I do understand the rage of the veterans who think Kerry was attacking them. Some of them -- many of them, maybe -- didn't participate in such "atrocities." Others probably did, but feel that Kerry violated some code by reporting it -- and maybe they just didn't want to be reminded of it. Whatever the reason, I understand their anger.

 

But that is no reason to do what they have done in 2004, which is to spread lies and other baseless smears across the factual record of John Kerry's service in combat.

[_BiB_]

Somehow I knew this could be turned into "But Bush..."

 

You know, even taking the darkest interpretations who's right here? Bush. At least he sat home sniffing coke and puking up his Jack Daniels. He didn't get himself into the middle of something and then toss it when it was expedient to do so and not of his liking. And the post "four months" period definitely would lead at least some to consider an agenda for the whole thing. everyone is so caught up in the fervor that no one is actually asking the right questions.

 

I've said before, that this could and should be a non-issue, from either side. It certainly wasn't important when Clinton (or Gore, who didn't finish his tour as a REPORTER) ran. It's important to you now. I haven't made it an issue. Mr. Kerry did when he "reported for duty" at the DNC.

 

And, I've seen that letter. They sure had a way with words back then, didn't they?

I (flame me if you like) understand duty and honor. I've seen it. I've tried to live by it. I understand it. And loyalty both to and from the people under my watch.

 

I wasn't there, so I can never truly know. But from 30 years of being around this stevestojan- I know what's not right.

[_BiB_]

And. BRH-what I wrote has NOTHING to do with Bush. At best, you just don't understand what I'm trying to say-and why I say it. At worst, you do and it doesn't matter. Why is it such a stretch to think there was a manipulative agenda here? People take risks sometimes to attain certain "goals". The truth of the matter is, although a lot of people are killed or wounded in combat, most aren't. I know a guy who actually won the Medal of Honor and never got so much a a scratch.

 

At least not one he got a purple heart for.

[Captain America]

The libber lefty losers will aways say , but Bush , because Komrade Kerry is shallow and empty and he(Kerry) is glad about the Viet Nam controversy because if it wernt for that nobody would even know who he is .I myself could care less about his service in Viet Nam ,good for him, but when he came home , his conduct was traitorious , and this will be the next episode on Komrade Kerry.

[IDBillzFan]

So Kerry came home from Vietnam after four months of combat. Not only did George Bush not set foot outside this country, he got a transfer to another state's Guard so he could work on a political campaign, then missed his flight physical, then didn't show up for drills, and finally was released early so he could go to business school. And while Kerry has produced several witnesses who attest not only to his presence but his bravery in Vietnam, Bush has yet to produce one credible witness who can attest to his PRESENCE at drills in Alabama. Who can be fairly said to have done his duty? Certainly not Bush.

 

This is off topic, perhaps, from BiB's point, but I still fail to see why this is what makes Kerry the best choice for president given the fact that this is the very foundation of his campaign.

 

More to BiB's point, and taking Bush out of the equation...just for one second, if possible...Kerry is trying to paint a portrait of how admirably he served this country. Methinks BiB's trying to say that 'relatively speaking,' his time in Vietnam pales in comparison to the people who truly served their country in this war; not the Kerry's of the world who popped in, got some quick medals, and popped out.

 

To the untrained eye, yes, Kerry served his country. But to the trained eye with Vietnam experience, he skirted the war, got out, came home, and began his run.

 

It should have nothing to do with Bush because Bush already has a record as serving as President. Don't want him anymore? Tell us why Kerry will be better. But in doing so, drop the Vietnam crap because no one cares, and while you guys are at it, give up on the 'Bush is a coke fiend and a drunk and a VN dodger' because none of that is relative to what he has done in office. None of it.

 

To me, the Dems' inability to stay on point is what is going to ultimately cost Kerry the election. And riding his four months in Vietnam will be viewed, in due time, much as Gore was viewed for keeping his distance from Clinton during his election campaign; a very costly mistake.

[BRH]

To the untrained eye, yes, Kerry served his country. But to the trained eye with Vietnam experience, he skirted the war, got out, came home, and began his run.

8282[/snapback]

 

 

Now he didn't even serve his country, according to you.

 

You guys have got to be kidding me.

[KRC]

 

Now he didn't even serve his country, according to you.

 

You guys have got to be kidding me.

8309[/snapback]

 

 

Where did he say that?

[DC Tom]

 

Now he didn't even serve his country, according to you.

 

You guys have got to be kidding me.

8309[/snapback]

 

I think he's trying to say that he served...just not very well.

 

All I know is that he served a damn sight more than I have.

[_BiB_]

 

Now he didn't even serve his country, according to you.

 

You guys have got to be kidding me.

8309[/snapback]

 

No, you have to be kidding me. How much shrapnel do you have in YOUR leg? I work with a guy I take smoke breaks with. Have to walk slow as we go down the hall to the door. It bothers him. I haven't personally met too many people here, maybe DC Tom can attest to the scars I have on my forehead. He didn't get to see the ones on my hip.

 

Do what you are going to do. Your right, as is mine to not like what I'm seeing.

[DC Tom]

He didn't get to see the ones on my hip.

8320[/snapback]

 

And may I just add: thank God for that.

[BRH]

And may I just add: thank God for that. 

8332[/snapback]

Damn! Stole my line.

[BRH]

I think he's trying to say that he served...just not very well. 

 

All I know is that he served a damn sight more than I have.

8316[/snapback]

Ditto here, and maybe that's why I respect it more than do those who served more than he did.

[Alaska Darin]

Ditto here, and maybe that's why I respect it more than do those who served more than he did.

8334[/snapback]

I think you pretty much nailed it.

[_BiB_]

And may I just add: thank God for that. 

8332[/snapback]

 

There's always time...

 

Anyway, said more than I should. It bothers me. I've said my piece.

[BRH]

I think you pretty much nailed it.

8335[/snapback]

I thought so. I'm just hoping Bush's service record gives the same or more pause to those who served more.

[Alaska Darin]

I thought so.  I'm just hoping Bush's service record gives the same or more pause to those who served more.

8340[/snapback]

I didn't vote for him the first time around and I ain't this time either, so I'm not a very good gauge.

 

However, he's been pretty good to us military guys (not perfect, so I don't want to see a bunch of links to screwing veterans and no body armor, thanks very much). My wife's pay has bumped significantly over the last few years - much better than it was the previous 8.

[DC Tom]

Ditto here, and maybe that's why I respect it more than do those who served more than he did.

8334[/snapback]

 

And from that let me segue to: I've read a hell of a lot of military history (serious stuff. PhD-dissertation level stuff), enough to have some idea of what does and does not make a decent combat leader. I lack the empirical experience that people like BiB or AD bring to the table, so I'm not nearly as certain in my judgements...but I have enough questions of my own about Kerry's qualities as a combat leader. (And the caveat to that is: a good/bad combat leaders does not necessarily a good/bad President make. Kennedy was a war hero, too...and he !@#$ed up plenty his first couple years. The whole "I served in Vietnam" issue - from both sides - is a load of crap, as far as I'm concerned.)

[VABills]

And from that let me segue to: I've read a hell of a lot of military history (serious stuff.  PhD-dissertation level stuff), enough to have some idea of what does and does not make a decent combat leader.  I lack the empirical experience that people like BiB or AD bring to the table, so I'm not nearly as certain in my judgements...but I have enough questions of my own about Kerry's qualities as a combat leader.  (And the caveat to that is: a good/bad combat leaders does not necessarily a good/bad President make.  Kennedy was a war hero, too...and he !@#$ed up plenty his first couple years.  The whole "I served in Vietnam" issue - from both sides - is a load of crap, as far as I'm concerned.)

8416[/snapback]

To add on, Grant was a huge war hero, bigger then Kennedy, Kerry and anyone else out there, that ever considered being president. But he honestly was a !@#$ed up president.