Twenty Years Ago Today...

[buckeyemike]

The picnic in Hungary that allowed East Germans to flee to the West.

 

One part of this I would like to note:

 

Laszlo Nagy, one of the organizers of the picnic, was startled by the East Germans' actions, who left behind hundreds of cars and other possessions near the border for the chance to make the short walk to a new life in the West.

 

"Some of them were waiting for this moment for 20 or 30 years," Nagy said. "They left behind everything ... because freedom has the greatest value."

 

Please remember this in the health care debate. Do we really wish to give our right to choice to the government? I don't trust government to fix potholes, much less fix health care.

 

I think I'm becoming more libertarian as I speak.

 

Freedom is the greatest gift. Let's not squander it.

[Gene Frenkle]

Health Care Reform = Communism now? Even you can do better than that.

[DC Tom]

Health Care Reform = Communism now? Even you can do better than that.

 

I think he meant health care reform = people trying to esacpe public health care programs via picnics in Hungary.

 

I disagree. I think health care reform is more like Robert Fulton's invention of the steam engine...

[Gene Frenkle]

I think he meant health care reform = people trying to esacpe public health care programs via picnics in Hungary.

 

I disagree. I think health care reform is more like Robert Fulton's invention of the steam engine...

We could hold picnics in Texas and let overzealous border patrol agents try to run down low information voters while they make a break for the Mexican border and the health care utopia that can only be found there.

 

I'm sensing a new reality show here!

[buckeyemike]

Actually, my point was freedom of choice > health care reform.

 

But, I do like Gene's idea! Maybe we can spread it to Cuba as people leave on boats, 1959 Buicks, or wooden crates for Florida.

 

Hey, they have to be crazy if they want to leave the land of free health care, free education, and full employment for life.

[Gene Frenkle]

Actually, my point was freedom of choice > health care reform.

 

But, I do like Gene's idea! Maybe we can spread it to Cuba as people leave on boats, 1959 Buicks, or wooden crates for Florida.

 

Hey, they have to be crazy if they want to leave the land of free health care, free education, and full employment for life.

Well if they wait a couple more years this country will be just like Cuba, so they'll have even more reason to come here.

[Steely Dan]

Actually, my point was freedom of choice > health care reform.

 

But, I do like Gene's idea! Maybe we can spread it to Cuba as people leave on boats, 1959 Buicks, or wooden crates for Florida.

 

Hey, they have to be crazy if they want to leave the land of free health care, free education, and full employment for life.

 

What makes you think you won't be able to choose in Obama's health care proposal. Well other than right wing zealotry lies.

 

Just to letya know. There are no death squads in the plan.

[Steely Dan]

The picnic in Hungary that allowed East Germans to flee to the West.

 

One part of this I would like to note:

 

Laszlo Nagy, one of the organizers of the picnic, was startled by the East Germans' actions, who left behind hundreds of cars and other possessions near the border for the chance to make the short walk to a new life in the West.

 

"Some of them were waiting for this moment for 20 or 30 years," Nagy said. "They left behind everything ... because freedom has the greatest value."

 

Please remember this in the health care debate. Do we really wish to give our right to choice to the government? I don't trust government to fix potholes, much less fix health care.

 

I think I'm becoming more libertarian as I speak.

 

Freedom is the greatest gift. Let's not squander it.

 

Yeah, if they only had waited three months they could have taken everything with them.

[Magox]

What makes you think you won't be able to choose in Obama's health care proposal. Well other than right wing zealotry lies.

 

Just to letya know. There are no death squads in the plan.

That's not entirely true Steely, in regards to not being able to choose, if I'm understanding you correctly.

 

This is part of the transcript from John Kings interview with Sebelius over the weekend:

 

KING: We're back talking with the secretary of health and human services, Kathleen Sebelius. Madam Secretary, before the break, you talked about the scare tactics. You don't like some of these issues being raised or criticisms being raised that you think are misleading or out of bounds. The president himself used the term, and I'm holding up "The Bozeman Daily Record" here -- the "Roswell Daily Record" I'm sorry -- he said on the death panel debate, simply dishonest things have been said in that debate, simply dishonest. I want to ask you, if we're going to have that standard and try to hold everybody to it in the health care debate, that what you say must be factual, how about this statement the president said earlier this week at Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

OBAMA: Under the reform we're proposing, if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

KING: Now, the president uses those exact same words in this essay published today in the New York Times. He can't say that, though, with great certainty, can he, that in a changed marketplace, my employer or any employer that provides me benefits might say it's cost-effective in this new marketplace to change things, maybe take the public option, maybe go look for another plan. And if there are changes, I might not get to keep my doctor, I might not get to keep my plan. Isn't that factually correct?

 

SEBELIUS: Well, what I think, John, what the president is saying that he wants to start with the employer-based insurance coverage that we've had in this country since the 1930s...

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

KING: Forgive me, forgive me, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but that's not what he's saying. He says if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care. That's very specific, what he's saying, and many have said that that's not exactly true.

 

SEBELIUS: (inaudible). Well, clearly, he can't prevent employers from dropping coverage, and it happens all the time, although health reform will stabilize that marketplace. That's what I was trying to get at. It provides tax incentives for small employers who now are dropping coverage year in and year out to get into the market. It provides help for lower-income employees to take their employer-based health coverage.

 

So I think at the end of the day, what he's saying is, you're going to have a stronger employer-based system, encourage more employers to stay where they are and encourage more doctors to actually participate in the system.

 

Clearly, he can't mandate that a doctor not retire or that an employer not switch a plan that might have a different network of doctors. But strengthening the existing platform that serves 180 million Americans well, making sure that employers have incentives to stay in and really putting up some firewalls so that we don't have employers dumping coverage, which we have day in and day out today. 12,000 Americans a day are losing their health coverage. And what the president is talking about doing with health reform is actually stabilizing that marketplace, not dismantling the marketplace.

[yall]

Sgt. Peppers taught the band to play?

[buckeyemike]

What makes you think you won't be able to choose in Obama's health care proposal. Well other than right wing zealotry lies.

 

Just to letya know. There are no death squads in the plan.

 

I don't believe their are death squads in the plan. Choice, however, is another matter. Do I have a choice whether I want to opt out of Social Security? How about taxation? I just don't trust the government in this one.

 

And to yall, .

[Gene Frenkle]

That's not entirely true Steely, in regards to not being able to choose, if I'm understanding you correctly.

 

This is part of the transcript from John Kings interview with Sebelius over the weekend:

So we should take away an employer's ability to switch the health care plan it is currently providing its employees.

 

That's what you're saying, right?

[Gene Frenkle]

I don't believe their are death squads in the plan. Choice, however, is another matter. Do I have a choice whether I want to opt out of Social Security? How about taxation? I just don't trust the government in this one.

 

And to yall, .

Your logic is flawless.

[Steely Dan]

That's not entirely true Steely, in regards to not being able to choose, if I'm understanding you correctly.

 

This is part of the transcript from John Kings interview with Sebelius over the weekend:

 

KING: We're back talking with the secretary of health and human services, Kathleen Sebelius. Madam Secretary, before the break, you talked about the scare tactics. You don't like some of these issues being raised or criticisms being raised that you think are misleading or out of bounds. The president himself used the term, and I'm holding up "The Bozeman Daily Record" here -- the "Roswell Daily Record" I'm sorry -- he said on the death panel debate, simply dishonest things have been said in that debate, simply dishonest. I want to ask you, if we're going to have that standard and try to hold everybody to it in the health care debate, that what you say must be factual, how about this statement the president said earlier this week at Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

OBAMA: Under the reform we're proposing, if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

KING: Now, the president uses those exact same words in this essay published today in the New York Times. He can't say that, though, with great certainty, can he, that in a changed marketplace, my employer or any employer that provides me benefits might say it's cost-effective in this new marketplace to change things, maybe take the public option, maybe go look for another plan. And if there are changes, I might not get to keep my doctor, I might not get to keep my plan. Isn't that factually correct?

 

SEBELIUS: Well, what I think, John, what the president is saying that he wants to start with the employer-based insurance coverage that we've had in this country since the 1930s...

 

(CROSSTALK)

 

KING: Forgive me, forgive me, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but that's not what he's saying. He says if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care. That's very specific, what he's saying, and many have said that that's not exactly true.

 

SEBELIUS: (inaudible). Well, clearly, he can't prevent employers from dropping coverage, and it happens all the time, although health reform will stabilize that marketplace. That's what I was trying to get at. It provides tax incentives for small employers who now are dropping coverage year in and year out to get into the market. It provides help for lower-income employees to take their employer-based health coverage.

 

So I think at the end of the day, what he's saying is, you're going to have a stronger employer-based system, encourage more employers to stay where they are and encourage more doctors to actually participate in the system.

 

Clearly, he can't mandate that a doctor not retire or that an employer not switch a plan that might have a different network of doctors. But strengthening the existing platform that serves 180 million Americans well, making sure that employers have incentives to stay in and really putting up some firewalls so that we don't have employers dumping coverage, which we have day in and day out today. 12,000 Americans a day are losing their health coverage. And what the president is talking about doing with health reform is actually stabilizing that marketplace, not dismantling the marketplace.

 

I'm not sure what you think says that. If it's talking about doctors not being in the system of public health care that's nothing new. When I've switched jobs I've gotten different health care companies some have accepted my doctor others haven't. I've had to play musical doctors.

 

Also, the decision to make life and death decisions has fallen into the hands of private insurers for since I've been alive. There are stories of insurance companies refusing to cover transplants and other medical orders by doctors.

 

A public option will lower health care costs because it will add a large health care company to compete with BC/BS. If you don't want the public option you don't have to take it. JMO based on things I've seen and read.

[Magox]

So we should take away an employer's ability to switch the health care plan it is currently providing its employees.

 

That's what you're saying, right?

Gene, where do you come up with this stuff? This is the 2nd time in the last two days that you claimed that I said something, when in actually, I didn't say anything that even remotely came close to implying what you said.

 

Where did I say that?

 

I responded to Steely's assertion that you will be able to choose under the proposed plan, where I replied

 

That's not entirely true Steely,

 

Then I provided the transcript of the interview over the weekend that shows that, well....

 

that it isn't entirely true.

[Live&DieBillsFootball]

Actually, my point was freedom of choice > health care reform.

 

But, I do like Gene's idea! Maybe we can spread it to Cuba as people leave on boats, 1959 Buicks, or wooden crates for Florida.

 

Hey, they have to be crazy if they want to leave the land of free health care, free education, and full employment for life.

 

Where do you see freedom of choice in today's health care market? Almost every employer that offers health care benefits now offers only one plan. Whoever provides the best or cheapest plan gets selected by a company for all employees. Even municipals and school boards are moving to just one plan.

 

And the individual insurance market is even worse. I've been looking for an individual plan for my healthy 19 yr old son in WNY and have found exactly one plan. There are lots of other plans but all are just discount plans. Go in the hospital for surgery and they pay a whopping $500 per day plus supposedly negotiate discounts for you. Sounds like a great plan.

 

Adding a public plan or co-ops to the existing landscape will only INCREASE choice, because right now there is none.

[IDBillzFan]

Adding a public plan or co-ops to the existing landscape will only INCREASE choice, because right now there is none.

So will opening up competition on a national level and not only a statewide level, plus you get the added benefit of eliminating the need for the government to be involved in your life any more than it already is.

 

The panacea? No. But a good first place to start without more government intrusion.

[Live&DieBillsFootball]

So will opening up competition on a national level and not only a statewide level, plus you get the added benefit of eliminating the need for the government to be involved in your life any more than it already is.

 

The panacea? No. But a good first place to start without more government intrusion.

 

There are probably a lot of things that can be done without government intrusion. But the GOP doesn't appear to want to put forward anything other than opposing everything. They've spent more time perpetuating lies about "Death Panels" than in proposing anything to reform the current system.

 

Don't look now but the Dems may try to ram it through without any need for Republican support by splitting it into 2 bills. There may be a lot more government intrusion than if the repubs had played ball.

[IDBillzFan]

There are probably a lot of things that can be done without government intrusion. But the GOP doesn't appear to want to put forward anything other than opposing everything. They've spent more time perpetuating lies about "Death Panels" than in proposing anything to reform the current system.

 

Don't look now but the Dems may try to ram it through without any need for Republican support by splitting it into 2 bills. There may be a lot more government intrusion than if the repubs had played ball.

First of all, why does the left need the GOP in order to come up with reform ideas that have no more government intrusion? (So thank you for proving my point about the left and its incessant need for more power.) Next, the GOP has been one half of the six-pack trying to put a bipartisan plan together. But no one in DC is giving that any attention, are they? Only HR3200 in on the radar these days.

 

And for the record, the choice between a gargantuan crapload of government intrusion with no Republican input versus a slightly smaller gargantuan crapload of government intrusion with some GOP input only shows that you don't understand the problem with being a conservative right now.

 

But that's okay. The dems can own this garbage. My only concern is that once an entitlement this large is in place, it's virtually impossible to undo it.

[Gene Frenkle]

First of all, why does the left need the GOP in order to come up with reform ideas that have no more government intrusion? (So thank you for proving my point about the left and its incessant need for more power.) Next, the GOP has been one half of the six-pack trying to put a bipartisan plan together. But no one in DC is giving that any attention, are they? Only HR3200 in on the radar these days.

 

And for the record, the choice between a gargantuan crapload of government intrusion with no Republican input versus a slightly smaller gargantuan crapload of government intrusion with some GOP input only shows that you don't understand the problem with being a conservative right now.

 

But that's okay. The dems can own this garbage. My only concern is that once an entitlement this large is in place, it's virtually impossible to undo it.

How is the proposed plan an entitlement?