What made you think that 7-9 was underachieving?

[thebandit27]

Because talking about the Pats greatness gets boring when everyone agrees with you. We have very few positional battles and theres not much to say about the rookies until the season starts, the most exciting topic on our boards right now is Julian Edelman one of our 7th rounders a.k.a. Wes Welker 2.0, you guys should check out some of this highlights from our first preseason game, this kid rules. Returned a punt for a TD and cought 5 passes for 37 yards. He was a QB at Kent State, my guess is he's going to be our wildcat extraordinaire.

 

Ah yes, Luke Warm Pisswater rears his septic-laden head...

 

So talking about the "greatness" of the team that (1) failed to make the playoffs last year (cue: "yeah but our QB was hurt"), (2) had the biggest post-season let-down in league history 2 years ago (cue: "yeah but we went 18-0 before that"), (3) was found guilty of cheating for almost a decade (cue: "yeah but everyone was doing it"), and (4) has become well-known for being unable to hold a 4th quarter lead when it matters in each of the past 5 seasons (cue: "yeah but we won 3 superbowls before that") got boring for you?

 

Curious...still, that doesn't answer the question that members of this board asked you time and again: why are you here, on a Bills' fans' board? Can't you go some place where you're wanted?

[GG]

Curious...still, that doesn't answer the question that members of this board asked you time and again: why are you here, on a Bills' fans' board? Can't you go some place where you're wanted?

 

Giants boards kicked out the bandwagoneers a long time ago.

 

Is it true that if Stanley Morgan walks through Foxboro, he wouldn't be recognized?

[Wagon Circler]

For me it's less about the talent base and more about the mind boggling decision making when it comes to playcalling and game/clock management.

 

The games against the Jets, Clev and SF could have all been wins. And the debacle at the end of the half against the Pats* was just the icing on the cake for this inept coaching staff.

Nice avatar too

[1billsfan]

I've hinted at this in several threads previously but I decided it deserved its own thread. The question is in respect to the continuing criticism of the coaching staff - so what exactly made you guys expect to win more than seven games in each of the previous seasons? To my sensibilities, 7-9 seemed like overachieving when I looked at the teams on paper, and thus I have no complaints with our current coaching situation. Personally I could care less what someone's coaching style is as long as the results speak for themselves, and in regards to the DJ situation it just seems like given the personnel he has to work with, he has far exceeded reasonable expectations. So I ask again - did I miss the boat on why the Bills *should* have won 9 or 10 games in any of those season, or even 7? Because I certainly didn't see any awe inspiring levels of talent on those teams.

 

Your sensibilities are nonexistent. The results spoke for themselves. You did miss the boat. Here's the rundown (for all of those with the memory span of a crackhead) as to why Dick Jauron should have been fired on the spot after the season ended...

 

0-6 vs the division

losing to the 49ers at home

losing to the Browns at home

2-8 record to finish out the season

 

This was his seventh attempt at his futile quest for a second winning season and he was given the easiest schedule the Bills had had since forever to finally get it done. Dick Jauron sucks monkey balls as a coach. I wouldn't even want him as a defensive coordinator. The only silver lining is that, quite possibly, my constant nonstop ragging on him during this past year helped to pry open his "tighter than a Ted Cottrell in jordache jeans" coaching style with the no huddle attacking style offense. Let's all hope this dope has seen the light and will coach his team to win and that he's thrown away the "play not to lose" gameplans.

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

Your sensibilities are nonexistent. The results spoke for themselves. You did miss the boat. Here's the rundown (for all of those with the memory span of a crackhead) as to why Dick Jauron should have been fired on the spot after the season ended...

 

0-6 vs the division

losing to the 49ers at home

losing to the Browns at home

2-8 record to finish out the season

 

This was his seventh attempt at his futile quest for a second winning season and he was given the easiest schedule the Bills had had since forever to finally get it done. Dick Jauron sucks monkey balls as a coach. I wouldn't even want him as a defensive coordinator. The only silver lining is that, quite possibly, my constant nonstop ragging on him during this past year helped to pry open his "tighter than a Ted Cottrell in jordache jeans" coaching style with the no huddle attacking style offense. Let's all hope this dope has seen the light and will coach his team to win and that he's thrown away the "play not to lose" gameplans.

 

So your entire argument is based on insulting me without providing a shred of supporting evidence, which is about what I expect from the likes of you.

 

Ahem. Bill "he is so great and DJ sucks" Belichick, as I pointed out before, amassed a super-impressive 36-44 record in five years with the talentless Browns, which is about exactly on pace with what DJ has done in Buffalo since he arrived. So why don't you refute that statement rather than sling insults because you are too feeble-minded to add a coherent and lucid dynamic to this conversation.

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

Ok, since you won't accept valid responses about the coach's shortcomings, let's follow this line.

 

Tell me, who had the final say, next to RW, on that inferior roster composition since 2006? Who sat Fred Jackson on the bench in favor of ATrain? Kiwaukee Thomas/Jason Webster or Jabari Greer? Mario Hagan or Tedy Lehman?

 

A player here, a player there. A first down here, a first down there. It's all about players executing, because we all know it's hard to win in the NFL. Right?

 

I accept valid responses. You show me one and I will accept it. Second guessing from fans with as little or less knowledge of football as myself does not constitute a valid response. Simply put, there is no valid response and that is my point. You idiots are witch hunting because you cannot accept that the Bills just aren't good, and that is also my point. There IS NO VALID RESPONSE, because every one of your arguments are hind-sighted speculation and opinion. There is no valid response because you have no valid opinion. I cannot put it any simpler than that. The Bills were a 7-9 team last year. Not 9-7 team that botched wins. When your kicker misses a 47 yard game winner, the team loses. Not the coach or the kicker, but the team. But my god, when you have a 47 yard kick (every NFL kicker is expected to make those BTW) and you lose because of that, but want to use that as justification for calling for the coach's job, you are witch hunting.

 

What amazes me is how many of you honestly seem to believe you know more about football than DJ. I mean seriously you cannot even offer a lucid argument against the likes of me, a random forum poster, but you think your opinion regarding the Bills head coaching position is in any way valid? That is down right delirious.

 

I also love how you assume that DJ has all the people he wants on the roster. "Uh yea Ralph...there is nobody in the league I'd rather have playing LT than Langston with my job on the line. Wow we really have all the tools now! Down, set, w00t!"

 

I guess we should have been blaming Marv all along for being a sh------- coach after Norwood missed that 37 yarder.

[2003Contenders]

I've said it before. I actually agree that these Bills overachieved in 2006 and 2007. I give Jauron major props for dealing with an undermanned roster led by an uncoachable tool at QB and managing not only to get to a 7-9 record -- but to keep the team very close in the games they lost. In 2007 especially with the rash of injuries, the 7-9 record was exceptional. Last year after the team jumped out to a 5-1 record, I was very disappointed that the wheels came off in the manner that they did. Certainly Jauron deserves some criticism for what transpired -- but, again the team was hit with some unfortunate injuries and I now suspect that Trent was playing more hurt than we realized. Still, DJ made his share of questionable calls, so he does deserve to be on the hot seat -- but not as vilified as many on this board would suggest.

 

Looking back, that 5-1 start was probably a mirage, given the horrible teams that we played: Seattle picked 4th in the April draft, Jacksonville 8th, Oakland 7th, ad the Rams 2nd -- and we caught the Chargers at the perfect time after the Bills bye and while they were traveling cross the globe. Also, the Bills were winless in any game in which Losman appeared. So I am not even sure that 7-9 was evidence of underachieving. I tend to believe that the team has drafted pretty well the last 2-3 years, and we should start reaping some rewards this season. However, given the tough schedule, 7-9 this year would probably be more impressive than 7-9 last year.

[1billsfan]

So your entire argument is based on insulting me without providing a shred of supporting evidence, which is about what I expect from the likes of you.

 

Ahem. Bill "he is so great and DJ sucks" Belichick, as I pointed out before, amassed a super-impressive 36-44 record in five years with the talentless Browns, which is about exactly on pace with what DJ has done in Buffalo since he arrived. So why don't you refute that statement rather than sling insults because you are too feeble-minded to add a coherent and lucid dynamic to this conversation.

 

Sorry, but you've insulted yourself by comparing Dick Jauron to Bill Belichick. Belichick was perhaps the best defensive coordinator in NFL history BEFORE he became an NFL head coach. He had already proven his NFL coaching metal. Jauron had one good season as the Jags defensive coordinator and one good (lucky) season with the Bears out of five total. Both guys had one good season out of five in their first stints as an NFL head coach. THAT'S where the similarities abruptly end. They went in polar opposite career directions after that time period. Dick Jauron is at retirement age dude, the time to prove himself was these last three years as the Bills head coach. You act as if he's still an up and coming coach. In terms of losing longevity, Jauron's one of the biggest NFL head coaching failure of all time. Belichick will go down as one of the best NFL head coaches ever. I listed the glaring reasons why the guy is getting it with both barrels and those reasons are STILL not good enough for you???? I have NO patience with Dick Jauron sympathizers. But I digress, you need to seriously wake up and realize how completely off the mark you are in comparing these two guys.

[GG]

Since you don't want to answer the question on who was largely responsible for building the crappy team, making the decision on who to play and the game plan that was put in place for each opponent, let's continue the game.

 

The only surprise you can conjur up is Dick's first 7-9 season. But in reality, Mularkey's 5-11 team wasn't really as bad as the record indicated and was a play removed from playoffs in 2004.

 

Still it's not a stretch to imagine that the 2008 Bills were better than the 2004 Bills, yet managed 2 less wins. Are the better players responsible for that?

 

Ps - valid criticism involves pointing out specific deficiencies of a coaching staff, relative to normal expectations of an NFL coaching staff, such as managing the game clock in critical situations.

 

It doesn't matter what you think of Jauron. The bottom line is that his teams stink and usually underperform expectations. You could be more liberal with the Belichick analogy if Jauron had a modicum of success in his second job. But here in his third, he's still mediocre.

 

Pss - if you're going to compare Cleveland FG to SB XV you should at least get the facts straight.

[vincec]

Dick Jauron has been a head coach for all or part of 10 NFL seasons. That's a career for most coaches. His career record is 57 - 76. He has had 1 winning season and 9 losing seasons. He made the playoffs once and lost in the first round.

 

He is a loser, by definition.

 

I don't understand what magical evolution his supporters are waiting for. Chances are that if he does have a winning season, then that is the aberration not the 10 seasons before. It always amazes me how much having been a head coach before counts when teams are looking at HC candidates. It doesn't really seem to matter if you are successful or not... but I digress.

[2003Contenders]

Dick Jauron has been a head coach for all or part of 10 NFL seasons. That's a career for most coaches. His career record is 57 - 76. He has had 1 winning season and 9 losing seasons. He made the playoffs once and lost in the first round.

 

He is a loser, by definition.

 

I don't understand what magical evolution his supporters are waiting for. Chances are that if he does have a winning season, then that is the aberration not the 10 seasons before. It always amazes me how much having been a head coach before counts when teams are looking at HC candidates. It doesn't really seem to matter if you are successful or not... but I digress.

 

Some valid points there. Certainly mitigating circumstances abound with some of those losing seasons but 9 losing season out of 10 is what it is.

[billsfan89]

Its an interesting conversation to have. In 2006 the team was a mismosh of left overs from the TD era and the early stages of the Marv 2 era. The D was a pretty good bunch I would say about average (Takeo, London, and Schobel in top form as well as Nate, Whitner and Mcgee in the secondary but no DT quality play). The O had Mcgahee, Evans, and Losman but not a good o-line or secondary targets so it was a subpar but not terrible bunch.

 

For the 06 season I would say 7-9 was about right (Maybe we should have been 8-8 but about was the key word). For the 07 season we had a team that wasn't good and I would say 7-9 was an over achieving season. In that year we cleaned house on the TD era and installed Marv/Russ players. The problem was too many players left (Nate, Takeo, London, and Mcgahee all left) and not enough were brought in to replace them (Lynch, Dockery, and Poz). On top of that we were ravaged by injury

 

In 07 we lost Losman (Who at the time was coming off of a promising season) we also lost Poz and a bunch of defensive players. Now to DJ's credit we played hard and considering the circumstances we did well going 7-9 (With that Dallas game being the one that got away )

 

Now so far DJ isn't doing too bad. 06 about right at expectations and in 07 above expectations. But 08 is where you loose me. The team added Stroud, Poz off of injury, McKelvin, and Michell. You had Edwards entrenched as a starter and a 5-1 start. The team on paper was a 8-8/9-7 team but those expectations changed with the 5-1 start. DJ blew the Cleveland game and the Jets game right there we go 9-7 which even with the 5-1 start isn't terrible (Not good either but understandable due to the harder schedule)

 

Last year 7-9 was a terrible outing for Jauron and he should have been fired. To me retaining DJ is retaining a culture of losing. The best argument of keeping DJ was well there wasn't anyone out there with a big name to replace them (Rex Ryan and Steve Spagnolo and a bunch of other coordinators). While next year there are going to be more names available but you loose me with the fact that Ralph is likely to not spend big money on a coach. if he fires Jauron we are likely going to go with a no name coordinator as the new coach.

[Lori]

I accept valid responses. You show me one and I will accept it. Second guessing from fans with as little or less knowledge of football as myself does not constitute a valid response. Simply put, there is no valid response and that is my point. You idiots are witch hunting because you cannot accept that the Bills just aren't good, and that is also my point. There IS NO VALID RESPONSE, because every one of your arguments are hind-sighted speculation and opinion. There is no valid response because you have no valid opinion. I cannot put it any simpler than that. The Bills were a 7-9 team last year. Not 9-7 team that botched wins. When your kicker misses a 47 yard game winner, the team loses. Not the coach or the kicker, but the team. But my god, when you have a 47 yard kick (every NFL kicker is expected to make those BTW) and you lose because of that, but want to use that as justification for calling for the coach's job, you are witch hunting.

 

What amazes me is how many of you honestly seem to believe you know more about football than DJ. I mean seriously you cannot even offer a lucid argument against the likes of me, a random forum poster, but you think your opinion regarding the Bills head coaching position is in any way valid? That is down right delirious.

 

I also love how you assume that DJ has all the people he wants on the roster. "Uh yea Ralph...there is nobody in the league I'd rather have playing LT than Langston with my job on the line. Wow we really have all the tools now! Down, set, w00t!"

 

I guess we should have been blaming Marv all along for being a sh------- coach after Norwood missed that 37 yarder.

Not on a cold (wind chill below freezing) and breezy November night at the Ralph, kicking toward the scoreboard.

 

And as previously noted, Norwood's kick was 47, not 37 ... but on that night, Levy had no other options. Jauron did, but CHOSE to run the ball into the middle of the line on three consecutive plays.

[Ramius]

Not on a cold (wind chill below freezing) and breezy November night at the Ralph, kicking toward the scoreboard.

 

And as previously noted, Norwood's kick was 47, not 37 ... but on that night, Levy had no other options. Jauron did, but CHOSE to run the ball into the middle of the line on three consecutive plays.

 

Thank you. And that "play not to lose" mentality is always going to inevitably going to sink the Bills and jauron. The Bills and the jauron supporters can say what they want about things changing, but (and i'm sure it didn't elude you, Lori) in the first quarter of last weekend's Bears game, i saw the Bills face a 3rd and G from the 12? yard line and what did jauron do? Run the ball into the middle of the line and settle for the FG. Then didn't even consider going for the endzone. That scaredy cat coaching is going to cost us every time.

 

What does it say about the coach when he only uses 2 downs to try and advance the ball?

[Lori]

Thank you. And that "play not to lose" mentality is always going to inevitably going to sink the Bills and jauron. The Bills and the jauron supporters can say what they want about things changing, but (and i'm sure it didn't elude you, Lori) in the first quarter of last weekend's Bears game, i saw the Bills face a 3rd and G from the 12? yard line and what did jauron do? Run the ball into the middle of the line and settle for the FG. Then didn't even consider going for the endzone. That scaredy cat coaching is going to cost us every time.

 

What does it say about the coach when he only uses 2 downs to try and advance the ball?

Did you get to watch the Bears game? Could you hear the boos as Lindell trotted onto the field? I'm still swearing about it three days later. It's PRESEASON, for cryin' out loud. A shot at the end zone? Please?

 

(Add: I should probably apologize to Tim G. here. Because it's easier to send an e-mail than post on TBD from the CrackBerry, he got the brunt of my displeasure with both that playcall and Langston Walker's performance. A quote from same: "After a nice drive, 3rd-and-long handoff into the line to set up the first Bills FG: Jauronball 101.")

[Sisyphean Bills]

Ahem. Bill "he is so great and DJ sucks" Belichick, as I pointed out before, amassed a super-impressive 36-44 record in five years with the talentless Browns, which is about exactly on pace with what DJ has done in Buffalo since he arrived. So why don't you refute that statement rather than sling insults because you are too feeble-minded to add a coherent and lucid dynamic to this conversation.

The comparisons to Belichick are supremely naive. Bill Belichick won Super Bowls as a defensive coordinator before he became a head coach. His scheme was the primary reason the Giants upset the Bills in the Super Bowl. He's won Super Bowls in his second stint as a head coach. In between, he helped resurrect the Jets from the dead with Parcells.

 

Saying Jauron is just like Belichick on nothing more than Belichick's record in Cleveland is a lame single data point with no weight that holds no water. I mean it is flat out ignorant of the fact that Belichick came into Cleveland when it was a veteran team with a ton of holdover talent from Schottenheimer's era 3 years earlier and that talent was getting long in the tooth. It's wasn't until his third year that he even really started to overhaul the roster in earnest. In his 4th season, Belichick had the Browns in the playoffs and they actually won a playoff game against a team with a winning record. Jauron has been a head coach for 8 years and never done that.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

The comparisons to Belichick are supremely naive. Bill Belichick won Super Bowls as a defensive coordinator before he became a head coach. His scheme was the primary reason the Giants upset the Bills in the Super Bowl. He's won Super Bowls in his second stint as a head coach. In between, he helped resurrect the Jets from the dead with Parcells.

 

Saying Jauron is just like Belichick on nothing more than Belichick's record in Cleveland is a lame single data point with no weight that holds no water. I mean it is flat out ignorant of the fact that Belichick came into Cleveland when it was a veteran team with a ton of holdover talent from Schottenheimer's era 3 years earlier and that talent was getting long in the tooth. It's wasn't until his third year that he even really started to overhaul the roster in earnest. In his 4th season, Belichick had the Browns in the playoffs and they actually won a playoff game against a team with a winning record. Jauron has been a head coach for 8 years and never done that.

Sisyphus, you overstate your case therefore weakening your argument.

 

I agree with you completely that the difference between Belichick and Jauron is vast. But to say that Belichick's "scheme was the primary reason the Giants upset the Bills in the Super Bowl" is absurd. We did not win that game because our defense couldn't wrest the ball away from their offense, because we missed on a few offensive opportunities, and because we missed a field goal attempt at the end.

 

Our offense outperformed their defense by a wide margin in the Super Bowl. Belichick was a great coordinator and is an excellent coach but to me he gets no credit for the Giants victory over the Bills.

[BillsVet]

Many fans who follow the Bills fail to watch what happens across the rest of the league, save for major transactions like Favre and Vick. They therefore do not realize that most teams do not miss the playoffs 9 seasons running and aren't a clinch in their 10th try.

 

If anyone doubts that DJ stinks, ask yourself how many times the Bills have won games against teams they weren't favored to beat. And then ask how many times they've lost to teams they should have beat.

 

Buffalo's HC has been bested by HOF coaches, mediocre coaches, and rookie coaches. He rarely beats better teams, and finds ways to lose to bad teams.

 

I am most concerned that DJ's close to the vest try to win on the last possession mindset is setting into the mind of the QB. Trent gets ripped for being a checkdown QB, but I'm beginning to wonder if it's what the coaches are feeding a young guy starting his 2nd full season. I wouldn't say that if DJ had such a fine record with his other QB's.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Sisyphus, you overstate your case therefore weakening your argument.

 

I agree with you completely that the difference between Belichick and Jauron is vast. But to say that Belichick's "scheme was the primary reason the Giants upset the Bills in the Super Bowl" is absurd.

OK, I can go with that, actually. I think his scheme did limit the damage, and kept the Giants in the game from that standpoint. The Bills had been destroying people. But it wasn't the only reason and I did overstate that. Thanks for the spot-on.

We did not win that game because our defense couldn't wrest the ball away from their offense, because we missed on a few offensive opportunities, and because we missed a field goal attempt at the end.

I think those missed offensive opportunities and being forced to attempt a long kick with an average-legged kicker had quite a bit to do with the Giants defense under the direction of Bill Belichick, however. The Bills offense wasn't handcuffing themselves.

Our offense outperformed their defense by a wide margin in the Super Bowl. Belichick was a great coordinator and is an excellent coach but to me he gets no credit for the Giants victory over the Bills.

I have to disagree with this last bit. He gets a ton of credit in my book. Holding the Bills offense to 19 points was huge. The Giants defense was #1 in the NFL that year, so even if you quibble about the Super Bowl itself, I think you'd be deluding yourself to say the Giants defense didn't carry that team to the big show on its back. Hostetler didn't do it, that's for darn sure. We'll have to agree to disagree on that, I guess.

 

(Edited)

[BillsVet]

OK, I can go with that, actually. I think his scheme did limit the damage, and kept the Giants in the game from that standpoint. The Bills had been destroying people. But it wasn't the only reason and I did overstate that. Thanks for the spot-on.

 

Wasn't it Belichick who told his defense that Thurman Thomas needed to run for 100+ yards for them to win? If I'm not mistaken, that was mentioned on the Super Bowl program NFL Network runs.