2003 draft. Take a look at this:

[Kelly the Dog]

Now, I am not saying we got the very best, and one year ago we wouldn't have said this, and one or three years from now we may not be saying this, and some of these guys are probably playing better than we know... BUT... at #23 and #48, these are who every team drafted in the first two rounds with their picks. Willis and Kelsay are looking pretty good. Several teams have some good players though.

 

1 Carson Palmer Bengals QB USC

33 Eric Steinbach Bengals G Iowa

 

2 Charles Rogers Lions WR Michigan State

34 Boss Bailey Lions LB Georgia

 

3 Andre Johnson Texans WR Miami (FL)

41 Ben Joppru Texans TE Michigan

 

4 Dewayne Robertson Jets DT Kentucky

53 Victor Hobson Jets LB Michigan

 

5 Terence Newman Cowboys DB Kansas State

38 Al Johnson Cowboys C Wisconsin

 

6 Johnathan Sullivan Saints DT Georgia

37 Jonathan Stinchcomb Saints T Georgia

 

7 Byron Leftwich Jaguars QB Marshall

39 Rashean Mathis Jaguars DB Bethune-Cookman

 

8 Jordan Gross Panthers T Utah

50 Bruce Nelson Panthers C Iowa

 

9 Kevin Williams Vikings DE Oklahoma State

40 E.J. Henderson Vikings LB Maryland

 

10 Terrell Suggs Ravens DE Arizona State

19 Kyle Boller Ravens QB California

 

11 Marcus Trufant Seahawks DB Washington State

42 Ken Hamlin Seahawks DB Arkansas

 

12 Jimmy Kennedy Rams DT Penn State

43 Pisa Tinoisamoa Rams LB Hawaii

 

13 Ty Warren Patriots DT Texas A&M

36 Eugene Wilson Patriots DB Illinois

45 Bethel Johnson Patriots WR Texas A&M

 

14 Michael Haynes Bears DE Penn State

35 Charles Tillman Bears DB Louisiana-Lafayette

22 Rex Grossman Bears QB Florida

 

15 Jerome McDougle Eagles DE Miami (FL)

61 L.J. Smith Eagles TE Rutgers

 

16 Troy Polamalu Steelers DB USC

59 Alonzo Jackson Steelers DE Florida State

 

17 Bryant Johnson Cardinals WR Penn State

18 Calvin Pace Cardinals DE Wake Forest

54 Anquan Boldin Cardinals WR Florida State

 

20 George Foster Broncos T Georgia

51 Terry Pierce Broncos LB Kansas State

 

21 Jeff Faine Browns C Notre Dame

52 Chaun Thompson Browns LB West Texas A&M

 

23 Willis McGahee Bills RB Miami (FL)

48 Chris Kelsay Bills DE Nebraska

 

24 Dallas Clark Colts TE Iowa

58 Michael Doss Colts DB Ohio State

 

25 William Joseph Giants DT Miami (FL)

56 Osi Umenyiora Giants DE Troy State

 

26 Kwame Harris 49ers T Stanford

57 Anthony Adams 49ers DT Penn State

 

27 Larry Johnson Chiefs RB Penn State

47 Kawika Mitchell Chiefs LB South Florida

 

28 Andre Woolfolk Titans DB Oklahoma

60 Tyrone Calico Titans WR Middle Tennessee State

 

29 Nick Barnett Packers LB Oregon State

 

30 Sammy Davis Chargers DB Texas A&M

46 Drayton Florence Chargers DB Tuskegee

62 Terrance Kiel Chargers DB Texas A&M

 

31 Nnamdi Asomugha Raiders DB California

32 Tyler Brayton Raiders DE Colorado

63 Teyo Johnson Raiders WR Stanford

 

44 Taylor Jacobs Redskins WR Florida

 

49 Eddie Moore Dolphins LB Tennessee

 

55 Bryan Scott Falcons DB Penn State

 

64 Dewayne White Buccaneers DE Louisville

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Definitely WMs performance makes or breaks the assessment of this draft for TD. As with most drafts it is still too early to truly assess whether these youngsters contributed to the teams which picked them in the good manner.

 

However, there are a few positive things which can be said about the Bills and TDs work in terms of their 2003 1st round pick:

 

1. All picks are risks, but thanks to some good assessment by the Bills medical staff and appropriate trust in their judgment by the draft brain trust they made the call which allowed them to pick up a likely top talent with the #23 pick. The medical staff looked at the X-rays and poked and prodded WM and made the judgement that his multiple tear injury was devastating but could be rehabbed to something approximating its former level if the team was patient.

 

It is interesting that Larry Johnson is the only other RB on your list so perhaps the kudos to TD are for reading the market wonderfully in seeing that this talent we were ready to take a risk on would be there (he clearly read the market correctly regarding Kelsay as most would have judged this a reasonable first round pick). However, even if something unfortunate happens with a bad hit at the wrong time, WM piling up 37 carries and 132 yards on Sunday means TD deserves kudos for taking a risk which others judged shouldn't be taken.

 

The bonus is that we not only got a top 5 with 23 but have been able to pay him as a #23.

 

2. Kudos to the Bills for ignoring the fans rehab schedule, Many on this board were ready to play WM on crutches (the same folks are now advocating playing JP on crutches) and wanted to rush him along, trade him based on their fears or trade Henry based on their hopes. The Bills have done exactly the right thing in terms of WMs rehab and as best as I can tell having two starting RBs on the roster.

 

One can attempt to make the case that WMs performance is actually proof they could have brought him along sooner. Maybe, but looking at WMs performance where from my view he clearly has an extra gear now that he did not have until the 5th game or so this season I don't think he was ready to go any earlier. Even more exciting for me as a Bills fan is that looking at his slowly increasing yards per carry I think that his rehab is not yet complete and that we may very well see another gear from WM.

 

3. There is a lot more to the plusses of this assessment than a judgement on WMs play. Actually if you want to assess how the Bills handled THEIR 2003 #1 pick it actually was the one traded for Bledsoe. It strikes me as a more rational assesment to really assess how their first pick did so looking at the WM situation is fine. I for one feel good about the decision they made to trade away the future draft pick to get a replcement for RJ given that the replacement acquired merited his Pro Bowl reserve nod that year as he led the team from 3-13 to 8-8. Further in terms of present value at the time it was really a something for nothing trade as the 2003 pick was not going to contribute anything to the 2002 team and Bledsoe did big time. If anyone got raped in this deal it was Belicheck who because of the luck of the draw had the situation where he had to trade one of his QBs (as Marv said if you have two starting QBs you have no starting QB) and the logical to let go caused NE to take a salary cap hit which almost certainly played a significant role in costing them even a trip to the playoffs sandwiched between 2 SB wins.

 

In the end, this deal was a wash in my view because Bledsoe's play stunk so bad once opponents got enough tape on him running the predictable once it was seen Kevin Killdrive offense and BB gave the league a template on hgow to neutralize Bledsoe in that scheme. All in all I think all of this balances out as in exchange for getting a top five draft talent with pick #23, the Bills had to eat a year of WM rehab with no production which balances off the free Bledsoe year.

 

Still all in all I'd say good work by the Bills and TD have brought the team into the position where the scales are balanced and now WMs contributions are simply payoff on getting him.

[Bill from NYC]

Thanks KTD for an informative post, and to FFS for an accurate in-depth analysis.

 

This type of info serves to point out just how hard it is to rate a draft sometimes. For instance, the Bills could have REALLY used Steinbach, but if Tucker develops, passing on him is of less importance. Btw, when was Tucker selected, or was he a free agent? Also, when did the Bills grab MaGee?

 

In any event, info like this makes it a little easier on this Bills fan to walk into a draft in which we will have no 1st round pick. More wins would also serve to ease the pain.

[Mark VI]

Kelly IS Fair and Balanced

 

He's next in line at FoxNews if the O'Reily scandal has merit.

 

Good work, lad.

[_BiB_]

Good work all. If we could all see three years down the road we'd either all be millionaires or suicides. The dynamics of everything change constantly. One can't draft from a constant state, as free agency (and perhaps ganja?) give you an ever evolving shift in priority, not only at position but in the raw capabilities brought to that position. Very complicated affair.

 

Anyone miss the wishbone and student body right? Ain't the same game anymore.

[Simon]

Looks pretty good as is.

But it looks even better when consider we also got TMcGee out of that draft, as well as SamAiken and Sobieski, both of whom were good enough to make very talented Bills' squads. Toss in ST's standouts Crowell and Haggan and it looks almost as good as the great train robbery of 2001.

We got to get rid of this Donahoe clown............

[Alaska Darin]

We got to get rid of this Donahoe clown............

110564[/snapback]

Yeah, he's egomaniacle.

[Bill from NYC]

Looks pretty good as is.

But it looks even better when consider we also got TMcGee out of that draft, as well as SamAiken and Sobieski, both of whom were good enough to make very talented Bills' squads. Toss in ST's standouts Crowell and Haggan and it looks almost as good as the great train robbery of 2001.

We got to get rid of this Donahoe clown............

110564[/snapback]

 

Simon, only a fool could deny that TD has made some smart moves. The thing is that when he does screw up, he does it in a big way.

[Simon]

Simon, only a fool could deny that TD has made some smart moves. The thing is that when he does screw up, he does it in a big way.

 

Every last one of them screws up in a big way at some point or another. However, I would not consider missing a 1stround pick(if MikeW goes bust) to be screwing up in a "big way". I also would not consider the hiring of a head coach who may or may not have cost us a single +.500 season to be screwing up in a big way. My biggest problem with TD is and has been the Bledsoe acquisition, and while I certainly believe it was a mistake, I would not consider it a fireable offense.

When the Bills hired Donahoe, I told you that historically he had two Achilles' heels; 1) he struggled with QB evaluation and 2) he had a habit of rolling the dice on unsuccesful 1stround picks. He combined those weaknesses in dealing a 1strounder for Bledsoe (imo) and he did it again in drafting Losman with a 1strounder. The first hasn't worked out so well and the jury is still out on the second. If Losman busts, then maybe it is time to consider changing TD's job description (i.e. GM with no say over QB or 1strnd of draft:-), until then he should be fairly judged on everything he has done, not just on the handful of mistakles he's made.

Personally I think you've set your expectations for the Bills GM position so high that they are no longer commesurate with reality. The biggest problem with that is going to be that no matter who they hire you are always going to want him gone within a couple years. And no franchise ever wins with a revolving door in its personell dept. Be patient, judge Donahoe on his entire resume instead of just his mistakes and give him a chance to see not only what he can Build, but also what he can Maintain.

Cya

[Thurman's Helmet]

What a draft New England had overall;

 

1. (13) Ty Warren DT - Starter

 

2. (36) Eugene Wilson FS - Starter

 

3. (45) Bethel Johnson WR/KR - Role Player/Occasional Starter

 

4. (117) Dan Klecko DL/LB - Role Player (now on IR)

 

5. (120) Asante Samuel CB - Role Player (Current Starter due to injury)

 

6. (164) Dan Koppen C - Starter

 

7. (201) Kliff Kingsbury QB - Cut

 

8. (234) Spencer Nead - FB - Cut

 

9. (239) Tully Banta-Cain LB - Role Player

 

10. (243) Ethan Kelley DT - On the roster but doesnt dress

[2003]

The Lions one was Bungles 1 was pretty good.

 

 

 

 

**********VOTE**********

http://www.chunky.com/ClickForCans.aspx

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Every last one of them screws up in a big way at some point or another. However, I would not consider missing a 1stround pick(if MikeW goes bust) to be screwing up in a "big way". I also would not consider the hiring of a head coach who may or may not have cost us a single +.500 season to be screwing up in a big way. My biggest problem with TD is and has been the Bledsoe acquisition, and while I certainly believe it was a mistake, I would not consider it a fireable offense.

When the Bills hired Donahoe, I told you that historically he had two Achilles' heels; 1) he struggled with QB evaluation and 2) he had a habit of rolling the dice on unsuccesful 1stround picks. He combined those weaknesses in dealing a 1strounder for Bledsoe (imo) and he did it again in drafting Losman with a 1strounder. The first hasn't worked out so well and the jury is still out on the second. If Losman busts, then maybe it is time to consider changing TD's job description (i.e. GM with no say over QB or 1strnd of draft:-), until then he should be fairly judged on everything he has done, not just on the handful of mistakles he's made.

Personally I think you've set your expectations for the Bills GM position so high that they are no longer commesurate with reality. The biggest problem with that is going to be that no matter who they hire you are always going to want him gone within a couple years. And no franchise ever wins with a revolving door in its personell dept. Be patient, judge Donahoe on his entire resume instead of just his mistakes and give him a chance to see not only what he can Build, but also what he can Maintain.

Cya

110653[/snapback]

 

I still argue trading for Bledsoe was not a mistake, particularly when you factor in the business side of the GMs job, and even on the field it was a wash. TD has made mistakes with Bledsoe's career as a Bill but resigning him instead of saying Aloha this oast off-season is the I'd fault him for (though it ain't over til it's over and though I doubt it will happen I will be overjoyed to eat crow if Bledsoe leads us to victory this Sunday in NE and parleys that win into some totally bizarre roll to a playoff berth which is what needs to happen to make the Bledsoe resigning a worthwhile move).

 

Look, after the 2991 season, the Bills and TD were still dealing with the hand that Butler dealt them. Flutie was a far better QB than RJ and TD was right when he said so in his previous to being a Bils GM incarnation as a media pundit, However, as a GM TD had no reasonable choice but to cut DF and give RJ an exerperimental year in what was going to be a rebuilding year anyway.

 

At any rate we finished 3-13 as RJ and his body flunked the experiment and it was time to cut him. TDs real world choices at QB as the 2002 season approached were the likes of Jeff Blake and Chris Chandler on the waiver wire,

 

However, BB had to move one of his QBs after Brady stepped up and Bledsoe gracefully stepped aside after winning a must win game for the Pats because everyone could see Brady was the answer for the Pats at QB.

 

TD pulled off an unexpected deal with BB when he acquired Bledsoe on the second day of the draft that year for our first rounder the next year. BB was willing to make this move becauseL

 

1. He was desperate and one of these two QBs had to oo. If Bb didn't trade him he ould likely had to have cut him. The Bills offer was a gift for him in that he got a 1st rounder though unfortunately it was not the 2 2002 1st rounders he asked for (you always ask for more than you expect to get, maybe your trade partner turns out to be Arthur Blank with AT, Mike Lynn with MN or some other fool) and actually was not a first rounder until 2003.

2. BB hoped correctly that he would chalk up 3 wins against the Bills because he knew Cledsoe's weaknwesses as well as anybody.

 

However, this is what TD got:

 

1. Instead of going into the 2002 season with AVP, Jeff Blake or Chris Chandler at the QB spot, he went in with a QB who was not be mistaken for a fleet-footrf boy, but on the field it cannot be denied he threw the ball to Moulds for 100 receptions, threw the ball to PP for 94 receptions. transferred in or audubled his way to handing off to Henry for 1200 plus yards and dealt the ball to other receivers so that he merited his Pro Bowl reserve nod in 2002.

2. Not only did he make a huge upgrade at QB moving from RJ/AVP to Bledsoe but it cost the Bills zero, nada, bupkus, nothing in 2002 as the price was for the future consideration of the 2003 #1.

3, If anyone got raped in 2002 it was BB. He was correct that he could chalk up 2 wins for the Pats as he demolished Bledsoe, but these wins were in the context of the Bills improving from 3-13 to 8-8 the second biggest improvement in league history. Meawhike the effects of the necessary trade of Bledsoe came home to roost in the accelerated cap hit of all the remaining Bledsoe bonus to the 2002 salary cap of the Pats.

 

Did trading Bledsoe and absorbing the accelerated hit cause the Pats to miss the playoffs entirely in 2002. Who knows for sure However, i think there is a pretty good case to be made for pointing to this factor. The Pats surprising SB win in the 2001 season was built around acquiring about a third of the team after the cap casualty June 1 deadline. Between resigning players who signed for a year, honoring the second year of contracts for players who produced and dealing with the usual raises wanted by players in a position to ask for them after an SB win, the unplanned for acceleration of the entire remaining Bledsoe bonus hamstrung the Pats that year. They obviously signed up a full team but with the Bledsoe limitation that were unable to spend that extra $250 to $500 K per player to get the better back-up or potential budding star they wanted.

 

The temporary talent drain on the Pats was clear as they bookended wins of the SB last season abs 2 seasons before that around the accelerated Bledsoe cap hit. These factors coinciding does not prove anything in court, but in the logical brain this looks like a pretty good explanation,

 

There would be no question about TD and the Bills profitting greatly from the Bledsoe deal except in my analysis Kevin Killdrive fell in love with Bledsoe's still extraordinary arm and ran a totaly predictable offense which depended too much on him in 2003. Bledsoe did not produce and the results simply sucked.

 

Soes this mean that it is impoesible to win with Bledsoe? No not at all impossible, it is just very very difficult unless you have a smart disciplined HC who will pull off the the just throw the ball discipline of a Bill Parcells when Bledsoe QB'ed his team to an SB berth or he designs a powered down offense which used Bledsoe as a change-up rather than depending upon him to win the game which he (or Trent Dilfer or whatshisname the two time loser QB with TB) he is not going to do,

 

Though I think a Bills team is far more likely to win it all with someone with a skill set other than Bledsoe's at the helm, I STILL think he can win in this league with just the right disciplined HC leading the team and the right teammates around him.

 

If the Bills has let Bledsoe go after last season and thus absorbed no cap hit as NE already did that for this contract, I think that the total deal was at worst a wash for the Bills and actually because TD also raped Arthur Blank to get his first round choice back I think the Bills were ahead on this deal until they chose to resign Bledsoe.

 

At least they did this in the only reasonable way it could be done as the deal was cap friendly, but still I disagree with those who claim this deal was a bad one for the Bills because certainly for 2002 it was a great one for us which only was balanced ou by Killdrive's piss poor management of Bledsoe's weaknwesses and strengths last year.

[Guest leo tolstoy]

^^ too long. no read.

[Simon]

I've read this argument from you many times and while I don't agree with it, I've never really thought of any counterpoint for it. That of course would never preclude me from giving you one ;-)

You'll have to forgive that I'm going to steal your own words in the interest of brevity:

 

particularly when you factor in the business side of the GMs job

By this I assume you mean making oodles of dough for the owner. So the business advantage of acquiring Drew was selling tix. But if you want to factor this in, it shouldn't be factored on its own. Say Drew got him an extra 5K of tix/week, or maybe 50K on the year or about 2.5mil in ticketsales. Also factor in the relative cost of Drew's salary compared to what a journeyman QB may have cost at that time and in the future. Somebody with real numbers could flesh this out if they were inclined, becasue I freely admit this noggin doesn't pass as an abacus, but I'd take a wild guess at a couple mill. Also factor in ticketsales which may have been lost over the next year/two; granted not many but Drew's less-than-aesthetically-pleasing game probably led to a few canceled seasontix. It would only take 10K tix total over a season to lead to a .5 mil in sales losses. Combining all these factors leads to a fiduciary wash as well as an on-field wash.

 

TDs real world choices at QB as the 2002 season approached were the likes of Jeff Blake and Chris Chandler on the waiver wire

Those were the only name guys available, but certainly not the only guys available. Please don't ask me to produce a list of who was available or what the relative tradevalues of what other journeymen may have been at that point in NFL history, but I have no problem with the recognition that various types of QB are always available in an NFL offseason. And what makes any other of those far cheaper QB's the equal of Bledsoe was that they were going to accomplish with the Bills the exact same as Bledsoe has/will: nothing.

There was so little value left to the Bills roster at that point, that there was simply no way in fiery hell that they had any chance of contending for the next couple years until the front offfice could fill that roster out with real ballplayers. Therefore it simply didn't matter on the field whether it was Bledsoe or Joe Hamilton out there because the end result was inevitably going to be the same. What did matter was that the Bills, who needed every tool in the belt in the middle of a building job, had just coughed up a valuable first rounder which may have really helped in their effort to build a solid base of very good players over the coming years.

 

Meawhike the effects of the necessary trade of Bledsoe came home to roost in the accelerated cap hit of all the remaining Bledsoe bonus to the 2002 salary cap of the Pats.

I would remove this point, as it appears to me to only weaken the position because the Pats were going to take the accelerated cap hit whether the Bills had anything to do with it or not. I agree that the dead space probably hurt a defending champeen, but it wasn't because Drew left for Buffalo, simply because he left which was inevitable in any case. The only influence TD had in the equation is that he enabled division-rival Belichik to steal a 1strounder for a guy he may have otherwise got nothing out of. Arthur Blank indeed.

 

 

There would be no question about TD and the Bills profitting greatly from the Bledsoe deal.......Does this mean that it is impoesible to win with Bledsoe? No not at all impossible, it is just very very difficult

Holding the opininon that Drew was one of the worst veteran starters in the league when acquired, I think that there was very much a question on whether the undermanned Bills could profit greatly, regardless of Gilbride or any other bad coaching. Hell they've thrown guys like Wyche(coahc of QB's such as KAnderson,SYoung,BEsiason), Tom Clements(QBmiracleworker in the past) and McNally (what better way to help a QB) at the problem, and Drew still frequently struggles. I think he would have looked like hell the last few years with or without Gilbride providing no advantage whatsoevetr for a team that was bound to lose anyways.

 

{Cliff's} I just think they gave up way too much at the wrong time when no one player was as valuable as the building blocks that would have served their ultimate goal far more effectively. {/Cliff's}

 

And I salute the once-proud notion of brevity.........

 

Cya

[flomoe]

FFS and Simon, you're both always a good read. Thanks for showing differing opinions on this matter. It obviously can be looked at from two different sides and the truth of the matter is, Bledsoe is here now and at the time of the deal, the options were limited. AVP was going into the season as the starter on a team that was mediocre at best. The move, both good and bad, put asses in the seats for the season and gave the Bills hope for the next season since the salary cap stranglehold that was on the Bills was finally being lifted. Who knew that Killdrive would incapicitate Bledsoe and DB would become the statue that he did. This one move can be viewed in so many ways but when you look at the big picture at that point in time, it was one that had to be done for both the team on the field and to put asses in the stands! Obviously, the drafting of JP and the deal to get him shows that even TD probably knew that DB was not the long term answer to the QB problem here but a nice stop gap for the team and financially for the organization. Just my opinion but thanks again for the good read FFS and Simon.

[Kelly the Dog]

Simon, I am quoting myself from another thread that was buried but I believe it has some merit to this very question and something often overlooked. It's just an opinion but I feel strongly about it:

 

Even though Bledsoe may be crappy, and over the hill, and unable to win us a Super Bowl, I don't think people realize the effect that his presence in our line-up has had on the entire roster. Without Bledsoe there, we likely could NOT have signed some or all of Spikes, Adams, Milloy, Vincent, etc. Those guys all mentioned Bledsoe when they first signed here, and if they didn't think that the Bills had a legitimate shot at going to the playoffs and winning this whole thing they would have taken other offers. They all said something to the effect of "It all starts with the quarterback". We didn't just hurl mad money at all of them. Granted, they could have been sold a bag of goods as much as us, thinking he still had it, but that is really not the point. Bledsoe gave the team respectability around the league. He got the fans excited. He got Peerless all those (perhaps inflated) yards which allowed TD to transition him which allowed TD to draft McGahee which has given us all this hope. Just because Bledsoe has let us down on the field doesn't mean that he hasn't helped the team and franchise and roster significantly.

 

Now, if we could just get rid of the bum.

[Rico]

Right now I think Willis may end up being the class of the draft. I know it's only 3 starts but the only players that I like as much as him are Andre Johnson & Terrell Suggs.

GREAT JOB TD!!!

 

As for Kelsay, he was huge against the Jets, but it's only 1 game. I want to see him keep it going for a while longer first. If he keeps improving, it's a definite steal for TD in the 2nd round.

[HarkinBanks]

Did anyone else hear the announcers talking about how McGahee thanked GW for not rushing him back last year when he was really pushing to play? I bash GW every chance I get and can't stand the guy but must give him credit based on McGahee's comments. I thought it was very interesting.