Cash for Clunkers goes...thud

[K-9]

Actually the opposite is true. Where did you get this info from Rush or Bill O?

 

That is almost verbatim the Fox talking point from Deucy through Beck trough whomever along with Limbaugh who gets the same talking points from the RNC. No surprise. Cash for clunkers is a success no matter how it is sliced. That is unless you believe that the car industry isn't important in the scheme of things.

[IDBillzFan]

It's not extra money they are asking for, the 2 billion is already allocated in the stimulus package. They would just move it from one place already designed for transportation purposes to the Cash For Clunkers program instead.

 

Now, back to your regularly scheduled rant, feel free to go on a cut-and-paste tirade about the stimulus package.

Ummmm....okay. Do you think they'll cancel one of those kickass shovel-ready infrastructure jobs that will save or create 3.5 million jobs even though the money hasn't been spent yet, or will they put an end to the grape genetics/marsh mouse recovery acts? I hope it's the shovel-ready infrastructure job that gets cut cuz we wouldn't want to piss of a Nancy Pelosi contributor.

[Chef Jim]

That is almost verbatim the Fox talking point from Deucy through Beck trough whomever along with Limbaugh who gets the same talking points from the RNC. No surprise. Cash for clunkers is a success no matter how it is sliced. That is unless you believe that the car industry isn't important in the scheme of things.

 

How is it a success? Do you have some numbers to back that up?

[Kelly the Dog]

I hope it's the shovel-ready infrastructure job that gets cut cuz we wouldn't want to piss of a Nancy Pelosi contributor.

Nope, we'd want an invasion of marsh mice into her house, maybe she'd move out of our state.

[IDBillzFan]

Nope, we'd want an invasion of marsh mice into her house, maybe she'd move out of our state.

I could live with that.

[Chef Jim]

Nope, we'd want an invasion of marsh mice into her house, maybe she'd move out of our state.

 

I don't really need her out of the state, just out of town. I hear she'd fit right into Marina Del Rey.

[Kelly the Dog]

How is it a success? Do you have some numbers to back that up?

I truly don't understand the opposition to it. The country benefits greatly from a revived car industry. We want GM and Chrysler selling cars so they can pay back the bailouts quicker and get back on solid ground (not to mention Ford and others thriving). We want the fuel efficient cars to replace the older cars. We want the dealerships and the salesmen making money and keeping their jobs and not going on the unemployment lines. We want the credit companies to be giving loans to pay for these new cars so that money is out of the banks and fluid throughout the system. We want the immediate impact of the sales to pump money through the system rather than the middle class just putting off major purposes for a year or two. We want more American cars bought than foreign cars right now. We want Americans to get in the habit of buying smaller, more fuel efficient cars.

[DC Tom]

Nope, we'd want an invasion of marsh mice into her house, maybe she'd move out of our state.

 

 

I could live with that.

 

It's nice to see people set aside their differences and find common ground.

 

Even when that common ground is so blisteringly obvious as "Nancy Pelosi is a !@#$ing shrew."

[DC Tom]

I truly don't understand the opposition to it. The country benefits greatly from a revived car industry. We want GM and Chrysler selling cars so they can pay back the bailouts quicker and get back on solid ground. We want the fuel efficient cars to replace the older cars. We want the dealerships and the salesmen making money and keeping their jobs and not going on the unemployment lines. We want the credit companies to be giving loans to pay for these new cars so that money is out of the banks and fluid throughout the system. We want the immediate impact of the sales to pump money through the system rather than the middle class just putting off major purposes for a year or two. We want more American cars bought than foreign cars right now. We want Americans to get in the habit of buying smaller, more fuel efficient cars.

 

We don't want American consumers already heavily in debt taking on yet more debt.

It's environmentally unwise.

And as for the "additional funding" issue...people are taking a short-term view of the auto industry's (okay, Ford's, since they basically are the industry now) needs. I heard this morning someone talking about how additional funding now would help the industry achieve short-term profitability...but isn't taking the short-term view at the expense of the long-term what got the industry so !@#$ed to begin with?

[Kelly the Dog]

We don't want American consumers already heavily in debt taking on yet more debt.

It's environmentally unwise.

And as for the "additional funding" issue...people are taking a short-term view of the auto industry's (okay, Ford's, since they basically are the industry now) needs. I heard this morning someone talking about how additional funding now would help the industry achieve short-term profitability...but isn't taking the short-term view at the expense of the long-term what got the industry so !@#$ed to begin with?

This isn't the short term view, it's the long term view: Selling and driving more fuel efficient cars. This isn't just for any old car and any new car.

 

On the American consumer point, you're right on the basics of it, we don't want people heavily in debt to take on more debt, but we absolutely do want people that can more easily afford these cars because they're 10-20-30% less to buy them. People used to be saving too little and now they are saving too much. People buying on credit is good as long as they don't have 30K a year jobs buying 150K and 300K houses. That's not what's happening here.

[Chef Jim]

This isn't the short term view, it's the long term view: Selling and driving more fuel efficient cars. This isn't just for any old car and any new car.

 

On the American consumer point, you're right on the basics of it, we don't want people heavily in debt to take on more debt, but we absolutely do want people that can more easily afford these cars because they're 10-20-30% less to buy them. People used to be saving too little and now they are saving too much. People buying on credit is good as long as they don't have 30K a year jobs buying 150K and 300K houses. That's not what's happening here.

 

In my mind it's just a short term feel good story that will provide zero furture stability for the US auto industry. Now all those people that bought cars will not buy one for 5-10 years, remember, these were people who drove "clunkers." Same thing that caused the tech bubble to burst. Every person and their grandmother and every company out there spent money to update their computers thinking the turning to the year 2000 was going to cause their system to crash. Ok, 2000 rolls around everyone has a new shiny computer and the need to purchase cycles down and so goes the tech industry. IMO one of the biggest contributors to the tech crash that few talk about.

[IDBillzFan]

In my mind it's just a short term feel good story that will provide zero furture stability for the US auto industry. Now all those people that bought cars will not buy one for 5-10 years, remember, these were people who drove "clunkers." Same thing that caused the tech bubble to burst. Every person and their grandmother and every company out there spent money to update their computers thinking the turning to the year 2000 was going to cause their system to crash. Ok, 2000 rolls around everyone has a new shiny computer and the need to purchase cycles down and so goes the tech industry. IMO one of the biggest contributors to the tech crash that few talk about.

The other interesting part of this program is that they're taking money from the stimulus...err...recovery bill. So while the car buyers are getting a "rebate," they're still paying for the rebate through taxes, as are the rest of us. They take our money from us, then give it back to a quarter million people under the guise of a rebate.

 

It's pretty clever when you stop to think about it.

[Kelly the Dog]

In my mind it's just a short term feel good story that will provide zero furture stability for the US auto industry. Now all those people that bought cars will not buy one for 5-10 years, remember, these were people who drove "clunkers." Same thing that caused the tech bubble to burst. Every person and their grandmother and every company out there spent money to update their computers thinking the turning to the year 2000 was going to cause their system to crash. Ok, 2000 rolls around everyone has a new shiny computer and the need to purchase cycles down and so goes the tech industry. IMO one of the biggest contributors to the tech crash that few talk about.

Oh, so you don't want people buying big ticket items now because they won't be buying them for 5-10 years? I'm glad you're not my economic adviser. We want people to buy American cars. If they get them a little cheaper right now, great. It takes inventory down so the car companies have to start making them again. Oh, the horrors. Maybe we could prevent that for a few years so they don't make more and cause more problems.

 

The computer comparison is a ridiculous example IMO because we're not talking here about people who just bought a car and are now buying a new one, nor are we talking about people buying MORE computers than were bought previously. Car sales went down 15-20% last year, in the millions. All of these Cash for Clunkers are not going to make up for that.

[Chef Jim]

Oh, so you don't want people buying big ticket items now because they won't be buying them for 5-10 years? I'm glad you're not my economic adviser. We want people to buy American cars. If they get them a little cheaper right now, great. It takes inventory down so the car companies have to start making them again. Oh, the horrors. Maybe we could prevent that for a few years so they don't make more and cause more problems.

 

The computer comparison is a ridiculous example IMO because we're not talking here about people who just bought a car and are now buying a new one, nor are we talking about people buying MORE computers than were bought previously. Car sales went down 15-20% last year, in the millions. All of these Cash for Clunkers are not going to make up for that.

 

No I don't want to prod them with tax money we don't have to buy the cars. Those incentives should come from the car companies themselves. Oh that's right car companies never offer incentives. Guess what, when they do, they sell cars. Remember the incentive to pay what the GM employees pay? That's right car sales went up. They want to pull themselves out the shiitter they fund it. I think we've given enough money to corp America. Aren't you libs the ones always bitching about that? And if it's big ticket items you want to sell why not cash for energy inefficient refrigerators, washer, dryers, water heaters? Oh that's right, the government doesn't own those companies.......yet.

[GG]

This isn't the short term view, it's the long term view: Selling and driving more fuel efficient cars. This isn't just for any old car and any new car.

 

On the American consumer point, you're right on the basics of it, we don't want people heavily in debt to take on more debt, but we absolutely do want people that can more easily afford these cars because they're 10-20-30% less to buy them. People used to be saving too little and now they are saving too much. People buying on credit is good as long as they don't have 30K a year jobs buying 150K and 300K houses. That's not what's happening here.

 

It's very much a short term view, because the indications are that the vast majority of the people who rushed out to take advantage of the program were in the car buying market anyway. So all you did was shift demand by a few months, instead of stimulating new demand.

 

It's similar to what go the auto industry into trouble back a few years ago, when they started deep discounting. You knew that the increased sales were taking sales away from the future.

 

As for the long term effect, because so many people bought new cars in the last 4 years, the overall fleet is already pretty good on an average basis, and the net effect from a carbon standpoint of upgrading your clunker is muted.

[DC Tom]

This isn't the short term view, it's the long term view: Selling and driving more fuel efficient cars. This isn't just for any old car and any new car.

 

It's a short-term economic view when they argue that everyone needs to do it NOW, for the benefit of the auto industry. It would be better for the auto industry to fund a $1-2B annual program over ten years, to create some sort of long-term demand for new cars.

[DC Tom]

As for the long term effect, because so many people bought new cars in the last 4 years, the overall fleet is already pretty good on an average basis, and the net effect from a carbon standpoint of upgrading your clunker is muted.

 

Negative, actually. Most of your environmental impact of a car is in manufacture and disposal. Operation only counts for about 40% the environmental cost.

 

If you want to promote environmental responsibility, you'd be better off encouraging people to keep their old cars.

[Chef Jim]

Negative, actually. Most of your environmental impact of a car is in manufacture and disposal. Operation only counts for about 40% the environmental cost.

 

If you want to promote environmental responsibility, you'd be better off encouraging people to keep their old cars.

 

So what you're saying is the put a lot of thought into this one huh? Jesus !@#$ing Christ.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

In my opinion it's a success because the program worked in it's two primary goals.

 

1 - Get gas guzzlers off of the roads - permanently.

2 - Increase New Car sales.

 

IF you choose to call it a "Failure" because it was TOO successful, that is your right. But that doesn't mean you are right.

[IDBillzFan]

If you want to promote environmental responsibility, you'd be better off encouraging people to keep their old cars.

Or consider getting rebates to people in "real" clunkers; "Here's $1500 to get you out of your Ford Pinto and into a used Volvo." Of course, that wouldn't help the car manufacturers.