reddogblitz Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 The Buffalo Bills, defeated in the AFC Championship game by the no-huddle Bengals, soon adopted their approach. With Jim Kelly quarterbacking a no-huddle "K-Gun" offense, the Bills became the only team in NFL history to appear in four consecutive Super Bowls, from 1991-1994."[/i] GO BILLSSS!!!! While this is technically true (pretty good for Wikipedia), there's a little more to it. According to Marv's book it went kind of like this as I remember: In the Cincinnati game, in the second half sometime the Bills went into the 2 minute no huddle offense and had success. It got Ted first to fool around with it in the offseason and then in the off season he proposed it to Marv and they decided to go with it. It wasn't necessarily that they saw Cincy do it and said, he we gotta do that. Actually it was more of a co incidence. GO BILLSSS!!!! indeed !!
tonyjustbcuz Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 Tony, try paragraphs. I don't say that in a snarky way. But I took one look at your post and skipped past it, and a lot of others will too. No that's fine...No offense taken...I have just began to post and I am not to familar with doing so. I usually just read'em once in a while. I'm kind of long winded and detailed as well, and sometimes it's a good thing but not usually for posting...Thanks Thurman and Go Bills!
SouthernMan Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 While this is technically true (pretty good for Wikipedia), there's a little more to it. According to Marv's book it went kind of like this as I remember: In the Cincinnati game, in the second half sometime the Bills went into the 2 minute no huddle offense and had success. It got Ted first to fool around with it in the offseason and then in the off season he proposed it to Marv and they decided to go with it. It wasn't necessarily that they saw Cincy do it and said, he we gotta do that. Actually it was more of a co incidence. GO BILLSSS!!!! indeed !! My god, we've been through this, not that long ago. Marchibroda noticed during film review and while gathering team stats, that the Bills offense was remarkably productive in the 2-minute drills, which up until this time, were largely situational (end of half/game kind of things). I've always thought the pace of the no-huddle just happend to be the one that Kelly felt most comfortable with. It was the gear that he was mentally best suited for. The Cincy "sugar huddle" as it was known, was designed to cluster more than 11 offensive players on the field in a huddle, with the excess players running to the sideline at the last second, keeping defenses from making needed substitutions. Didn't matter if the huddle was 2 seconds or 2 hours, as long as they got into their stance and set quickly enough to not allow defensive subs. It was a sort of sneaky girly thing to doand in my estimation, just poor sportsmanship. The Bills, on the other hand, relied on Kelly's (and Reich's) game smarts and ability to call plays at the line of scrimmage. Again, it shouldn't be confused with a "hurry-up" offense, because there was no real rush to snap the ball, as long as the team was in their set. Today, the QBs have a little extra advantage since they can get plays radioed in from the sidelines. Still, the transmission is cutoff when they get to the line, and Edwards will still be relied upon to read defenses and get his team in a position to create mismatches if an audible is required. Just the fact that the Bills are considering this approach, assuming they actually utilize it, tells me they have a lot of faith in Edwards' intelligence and ability. Now all they have to do is keep him healthy.
The Dean Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 Well, not quite - Marv/Ted/Kelly 'adopted' it after it was 'introduced' to them by Sam Wyche & the Bengals... GO BILLSSS!!!! The Bungles no-huddle was likely an inspiration for the Bills' version, but the two teams used a very different approach. The Bangles used it, illegally, to draw other teams into penalties (too many players on the field). It was a stunt, more or less. The Bills didn't try to draw the other team into penalties, and used it as a legit offensive weapon.
dollars 2 donuts Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 With this offensive line I think its a risky option,they must think they will be fine in their protection schemes,me I am not sold on that. Pitta, this is not a knock on you, hell this isn't a knock on anybody, but, as long as you know the plays and you have a smart center (which we do), whether you have 35 seconds in between plays to digest it, or 15, it really doesn't make a difference to you as an offense lineman, and it DOES put even a good defense on its heels a little bit. Holy crap was that a poorly punctuated sentence?! I've never thought that there was great risk for any team to run the no huddle - line wise. All you really need for it are play makers and a smart QB/C combo. Smart QB: Edwards - Stanford - check Smart C: Hangartner - 47 on the wonderlic - check Play makers: Evans, Owens, Lynch, Jackson, on third downs Reed - check
Chandler#81 Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 The Bungles no-huddle was likely an inspiration for the Bills' version, but the two teams used a very different approach. The Bangles used it, illegally, to draw other teams into penalties (too many players on the field). It was a stunt, more or less. The Bills didn't try to draw the other team into penalties, and used it as a legit offensive weapon. True, but JK -and all of us- had a lot of fun pullin' Smerlas off-sides when he went to the Pats*
stuckincincy Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 The Bungles no-huddle was likely an inspiration for the Bills' version, but the two teams used a very different approach. The Bangles used it, illegally, to draw other teams into penalties (too many players on the field). It was a stunt, more or less. The Bills didn't try to draw the other team into penalties, and used it as a legit offensive weapon. What rule said it was illegal? Were they assessed penalties?
scribo Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 An excellent article from Lindsay Carucci today regarding the no-huddle and how one new Bill will have some insight to share... Rhodes knows no huddle
VJ91 Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 sounds like music to my ears The Bills conducted Tuesday's training camp practice exclusively out of the no-huddle offense. Clearly, this is going to be a staple of Buffalo's attack. The up-tempo scheme will encourage Trent Edwards to be more aggressive after playing very conservatively in his first two seasons. Only time will tell how he responds. Great. I hope Fewell has his guys doing extra conditioning work every day. One minute 3 and outs will have our defense sucking into oxygen on the sidelines real fast. Personally, I would rather see the Bills heading in the opposite direction. I would like to see them building up a run-first offense around their new road graders on the O-Line, and pound the hell out of their opposing defenses first, and then blow past them with Evans and T.O. second. What would you rather see more of: A second and 10 out of the no-huddle, after a first down incompletion, or a second and 3 out of a nice deliberate paced regular huddle, after a Freddy Jackson run off tackle? I bet Evans, T.O, Reed, Edwards and Nelson would rather see the second and 3, if truth be told! Sure the Colts and Pats can run no-huddle and/or shot gun all day. But last I checked, the Colts and Pats have Manning and Brady. Last year, the Pats didn't even need Brady for their shot gun offense to work, becuase of their excellent O-Line giving Cassells all day. Anybody want to call our new O-Line excellent yet?? However, our O-line looks to be bigger and stronger up the middle, and that should translate to a better RUNNING GAME immediately.
The Dean Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 What rule said it was illegal? Were they assessed penalties? I don't recall the exact rule at the time, Cincy. I know there is now an explicit substitution rule that came (I believe) as a result of the Bungles tactics. In general though, I believe t is against the rules to try to bait the other team into a penalty. There are times this rule is overlooked...and then the NFL has to make an explicit rule for the specific situation, when one gets out of hand. You will even notice the NFL calling penalties on QBs for hard counts that are too obvious (head movement and such), when they feel the sole purpose of the play was to create a penalty. I'm sure one of the better versed posters can give us the exact details.
stuckincincy Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 I don't recall the exact rule at the time, Cincy. I know there is now an explicit substitution rule that came (I believe) as a result of the Bungles tactics. In general though, I believe t is against the rules to try to bait the other team into a penalty. There are times this rule is overlooked...and then the NFL has to make an explicit rule for the specific situation, when one gets out of hand. You will even notice the NFL calling penalties on QBs for hard counts that are too obvious (head movement and such), when they feel the sole purpose of the play was to create a penalty. I'm sure one of the better versed posters can give us the exact details. IIRC, there was a BUF-CIN game where Wyche and Levy got into a phony injury battle - I believe that eventually resulted in an "injured" player having to leave the field for at least one play. I think you are right - in general, about baiting to induce a penalty. I see it get called occasionally, on linemen that "flinch", so to speak. And QBs as you mention.
thewildrabbit Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 Great. I hope Fewell has his guys doing extra conditioning work every day. One minute 3 and outs will have our defense sucking into oxygen on the sidelines real fast. Personally, I would rather see the Bills heading in the opposite direction. I would like to see them building up a run-first offense around their new road graders on the O-Line, and pound the hell out of their opposing defenses first, and then blow past them with Evans and T.O. second. What would you rather see more of: A second and 10 out of the no-huddle, after a first down incompletion, or a second and 3 out of a nice deliberate paced regular huddle, after a Freddy Jackson run off tackle? I bet Evans, T.O, Reed, Edwards and Nelson would rather see the second and 3, if truth be told! Sure the Colts and Pats can run no-huddle and/or shot gun all day. But last I checked, the Colts and Pats have Manning and Brady. Last year, the Pats didn't even need Brady for their shot gun offense to work, becuase of their excellent O-Line giving Cassells all day. Anybody want to call our new O-Line excellent yet?? However, our O-line looks to be bigger and stronger up the middle, and that should translate to a better RUNNING GAME immediately. I agree, I'll be happy when the Bills learn how to run the ball again. If you can't convert a 3rd and short running, you will not win many games, JMO. The Bills are still lacking a 3rd down back, a great blocking FB and TE. 3 words,protection, protection, protection. The reason Payton Manning is able to put up the numbers he does is because he is one of the least sacked QB's in the NFL. It is not just his quick release,the game plan or the passing scheme. It is the line calls and protection by the O line. '
thewildrabbit Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 I don't recall the exact rule at the time, Cincy. I know there is now an explicit substitution rule that came (I believe) as a result of the Bungles tactics. In general though, I believe t is against the rules to try to bait the other team into a penalty. There are times this rule is overlooked...and then the NFL has to make an explicit rule for the specific situation, when one gets out of hand. You will even notice the NFL calling penalties on QBs for hard counts that are too obvious (head movement and such), when they feel the sole purpose of the play was to create a penalty. I'm sure one of the better versed posters can give us the exact details.I can recall the Bengals even faking injuries during that 88 Championship game to slow the Bills 2 min drill. Then there was that mysterious clock problem that went away after the Bills left the field. The Bills and Marv Levy didn't try and cheat to win games,like other teams have done, perhaps that was their downfall. The old adage, "if your not cheating, your not trying hard enough" Something Bill Belichick can tell you about.
john Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 Great. I hope Fewell has his guys doing extra conditioning work every day. One minute 3 and outs will have our defense sucking into oxygen on the sidelines real fast. Personally, I would rather see the Bills heading in the opposite direction. I would like to see them building up a run-first offense around their new road graders on the O-Line, and pound the hell out of their opposing defenses first, and then blow past them with Evans and T.O. second. What would you rather see more of: A second and 10 out of the no-huddle, after a first down incompletion, or a second and 3 out of a nice deliberate paced regular huddle, after a Freddy Jackson run off tackle? I bet Evans, T.O, Reed, Edwards and Nelson would rather see the second and 3, if truth be told! Sure the Colts and Pats can run no-huddle and/or shot gun all day. But last I checked, the Colts and Pats have Manning and Brady. Last year, the Pats didn't even need Brady for their shot gun offense to work, becuase of their excellent O-Line giving Cassells all day. Anybody want to call our new O-Line excellent yet?? However, our O-line looks to be bigger and stronger up the middle, and that should translate to a better RUNNING GAME immediately. Why do people keep confusing the no-huddle offense with the hurry up offense? You can run the no-huddle offense at the exact same pace you run a normal, huddled offense. The point of the no-huddle is to get the players lined up a bit quicker to create doubt in the mind of the defense and to give the QB a chance to read the defense and audible if he sees mismatches he beleives he can take advantage of. You can still use up the entire play clock, no matter how quickly the players line up. Payton Manning, who I am NOT comparing to Trent Edwards, does this all the time..... The hurry up is something you use in the last few minutes of a half or game when you need to score quickly. I thought this debate had been hammered out already.....Not trying to knock anyone, just trying to clean up what has become a mess of the term "no-huddle"
john Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 Why do people keep confusing the no-huddle offense with the hurry up offense? You can run the no-huddle offense at the exact same pace you run a normal, huddled offense. The point of the no-huddle is to get the players lined up a bit quicker to create doubt in the mind of the defense and to give the QB a chance to read the defense and audible if he sees mismatches he beleives he can take advantage of. You can still use up the entire play clock, no matter how quickly the players line up. Payton Manning, who I am NOT comparing to Trent Edwards, does this all the time..... The hurry up is something you use in the last few minutes of a half or game when you need to score quickly. I thought this debate had been hammered out already.....Not trying to knock anyone, just trying to clean up what has become a mess of the term "no-huddle" This may sound stupid, but I'm sure most of you Madden geeks out there will understand. If you have ever played against the Colts, Manning will line up quickly and then lots of time use the entire playclock OR run it down to around 10 seconds or less before having the ball snapped. It's maddening becasue he keeps calling audibles and the recievers/running backs keep changing positions. Trying to play defense against this type of offense, at least in Madden, is very frustrating. I can only imagaine how it must frustrate a 'real' defense if it is executed correctly.
plenzmd1 Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 Why do people keep confusing the no-huddle offense with the hurry up offense? You can run the no-huddle offense at the exact same pace you run a normal, huddled offense. The point of the no-huddle is to get the players lined up a bit quicker to create doubt in the mind of the defense and to give the QB a chance to read the defense and audible if he sees mismatches he beleives he can take advantage of. You can still use up the entire play clock, no matter how quickly the players line up. Payton Manning, who I am NOT comparing to Trent Edwards, does this all the time..... The hurry up is something you use in the last few minutes of a half or game when you need to score quickly. I thought this debate had been hammered out already.....Not trying to knock anyone, just trying to clean up what has become a mess of the term "no-huddle" Exactly! Also, lets not forget the Bills were always either at or near the top in rushing yards when they used the no huddle as their base offense. Also, they really went to the no huddle after the Ronnie Harmon Cleveland playoff game as they were nearly unstopable..till Ronnie remebered he was in on the fix (still my most hated Bill of all time, I am absolutely convinced he dropped that ball to pay off a bet)
Captain Caveman Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 Exactly! Also, lets not forget the Bills were always either at or near the top in rushing yards when they used the no huddle as their base offense. Also, they really went to the no huddle after the Ronnie Harmon Cleveland playoff game as they were nearly unstopable..till Ronnie remebered he was in on the fix (still my most hated Bill of all time, I am absolutely convinced he dropped that ball to pay off a bet) Anybody who tried to fix a game by bribing Ronnie Harmon is a
VJ91 Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 ... Also, they really went to the no huddle after the Ronnie Harmon Cleveland playoff game as they were nearly unstopable..till Ronnie remebered he was in on the fix (still my most hated Bill of all time, I am absolutely convinced he dropped that ball to pay off a bet) That Cleveland playoff game was the best Bills road game I ever attended. In fact, it was one of the best Bills games I ever watched live, home or away. It felt like I was on a roller coaster ride the entire second half. Neither defense was able to stop either offense, and it came down....literally...to the Bills stopping themselves with the football last. We sat with nothing but Browns' fans all around us, and when the game finally ended on Jimbo's unfortunate interception with less then 10 seconds left on the Brown's 15 yard line or so, we were all high fiving eachother - Bills and Browns fans, because we knew we had just witnessed and amazing football game played on a frozen dirt field spray painted green at the big old Cleveland Stadium rock-pile. As far as Harmon dropping that ball on purpose? Who knows. Watching live, I was on the opposite corner away from that end zone, and I did not have a good view of the play. But even from my distance, it sure looked like Jimbo laid that ball exactly where only Harmon would catch it, with plenty of room to get his feet down inside the corner of the end zone. Anybody remember Don Beebe holding onto the football for a vital first down after being flipped completely upside down and landing on the top of his helmet?? What guts that guy had for a smurf sized receiver. That second half of that 1989 - 90 playoff game was truly the beginning of the Bills no-huddle K-Gun run, and I'm glad we decided to make the trip to Cleveland to watch it up close and personal.
thewildrabbit Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 That Cleveland playoff game was the best Bills road game I ever attended. In fact, it was one of the best Bills games I ever watched live, home or away. It felt like I was on a roller coaster ride the entire second half. Neither defense was able to stop either offense, and it came down....literally...to the Bills stopping themselves with the football last. We sat with nothing but Browns' fans all around us, and when the game finally ended on Jimbo's unfortunate interception with less then 10 seconds left on the Brown's 15 yard line or so, we were all high fiving eachother - Bills and Browns fans, because we knew we had just witnessed and amazing football game played on a frozen dirt field spray painted green at the big old Cleveland Stadium rock-pile. As far as Harmon dropping that ball on purpose? Who knows. Watching live, I was on the opposite corner away from that end zone, and I did not have a good view of the play. But even from my distance, it sure looked like Jimbo laid that ball exactly where only Harmon would catch it, with plenty of room to get his feet down inside the corner of the end zone. Anybody remember Don Beebe holding onto the football for a vital first down after being flipped completely upside down and landing on the top of his helmet?? What guts that guy had for a smurf sized receiver. That second half of that 1989 - 90 playoff game was truly the beginning of the Bills no-huddle K-Gun run, and I'm glad we decided to make the trip to Cleveland to watch it up close and personal. I was at that game also, not only did the fans have plastic trumpets, the guy behind me had a car battery with a diesel air horn, the nose was unbelievable. Thurman Thomas had the most incredible game I've ever seen, I can only liken it to the Kellen Winslow / Charger game at Miami. "The Epic in Miami" 1981 div playoff
spartacus Posted July 31, 2009 Posted July 31, 2009 Watch Peyton Manning. He is so proficient at reading the defense, the Colts long ago decided it was a better to give those seconds normally spent in the huddle to Manning to work his magic at the line. Yes, the D can substitute, but try getting a defensive lineman off the field and a linebacker on the field without getting caught out of position. "Setting" early is not required. The linemen are not "set" until they put a hand down, and in the no-huddle, they often play without putting a hand down at all. Of course, receivers and backs can move around, as long as you don't have more than one in motion as the ball is snapped. But a no-huddle team has to be able to run a large percentage of its plays from any one set. since most of the teams we play utilize the 3-4, they will have much more flexibility in deploying their players which will greatly reduce the advantage of the no huddle against standard 4-3 teams who substitute alot. I would guess that the no huddle will create more confusion with our rookie OL and our mensa thug RB than with the 3-4 defensive coordinators we will face.
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