Black Quarterback

[Offside Number 76]

See! Told you I didn't really remember this!

 

 

I knew this at one time, at this point in life I'm hoping that I'm still learning new things faster than I forget old things. Thanks for correcting.

 

 

No, I'm quite sure Harris started the 1969 opener for the Bills. Harris was a rookie. Kemp was a bit banged up but came in later when Harris was ineffective.

 

That's right, but as above, that 1969 start was not in the NFL; it was in the AFL.

 

Was the Nov. 1971 start the first NFL start by a black QB?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

A site dedicated to black quarterbacks:

 

http://www.bqb-site.com/Timeline.htm

[San Jose Bills Fan]

That's right, but as above, that 1969 start was not in the NFL; it was in the AFL.

 

Was the Nov. 1971 start the first NFL start by a black QB?

That might be right, still trying to confirm. I know Joe Gilliam started games for the Steelers in 1974 but I honestly can't remember any other black QBs of that time.

 

One thing that's adding confusion to this discussion is that the merger agreement between the NFL and AFL was apparently signed in 1966. That's the reason the two teams started playing a World Championship Game in 1967, the first Super Bowl.

 

The merger was completed in 1970.

[Offside Number 76]

A site dedicated to black quarterbacks:

 

http://www.bqb-site.com/Timeline.htm

 

Cool site! It doesn't answer the question--I'm seeing a lot of references on the internet to Briscoe's AFL start and Harris's 1969 AFL season start (I knew about these & I also knew that many of Harris's passes were to Briscoe), but nothing on the actual first NFL start. It's as if the separation of the two leagues was some sort of fiction. I can't think of any other black QBs, besides Harris and Briscoe, at or around the time of the merger, so I'm going to have to conclude for now that Harris's 1971 NFL start is either an overlooked milestone or a "non-milestone" (because the merger is overlooked).

 

EDIT: i forgot to conclude--looks to me like Harris's 1971 start would have to be the first NFL start by a black QB.

[Offside Number 76]

I'm still finding nothing; I really hope Tim Graham spots this thread and gets this far. Maybe he can enlist ESPN's stat wonks and get us an answer.

[The Dean]

I'm still finding nothing; I really hope Tim Graham spots this thread and gets this far. Maybe he can enlist ESPN's stat wonks and get us an answer.

 

 

Anything here to your liking?

 

http://www.profootballhof.com/history/gene...-americans.aspx

 

Doesn't look to have your answer.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Cool site! It doesn't answer the question--I'm seeing a lot of references on the internet to Briscoe's AFL start and Harris's 1969 AFL season start (I knew about these & I also knew that many of Harris's passes were to Briscoe), but nothing on the actual first NFL start. It's as if the separation of the two leagues was some sort of fiction. I can't think of any other black QBs, besides Harris and Briscoe, at or around the time of the merger, so I'm going to have to conclude for now that Harris's 1971 NFL start is either an overlooked milestone or a "non-milestone" (because the merger is overlooked).

 

EDIT: i forgot to conclude--looks to me like Harris's 1971 start would have to be the first NFL start by a black QB.

Yep. I think you're right in terms of the "modern era." There's the Fritz Pollard and Willie Thrower stuff from before the merger and that's certainly significant too.

 

I guess the question now is who is the greatest black quarterback ever? I guess you'd have to say Donovan McNabb right now.

[Marv's Neighbor]

James Harris. Drafted by the Bills in 1969. First starting Black QB in the NFL, to the best of my knowledge.

I recall that James had a Great Arm but wasn't too accurate. I don't remember that many INT's but too many Incomplete Passes.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Anything here to your liking?

 

http://www.profootballhof.com/history/gene...-americans.aspx

 

Doesn't look to have your answer.

Thanks Dean. Interesting in their timeline that there's nothing between 1967 when Emlen Tunnell was enshrined in the HOF and 1987 when Doug Williams started the Super Bowl. Those are the years we're scratching our heads about.

 

Also getting conflicting reports on whether Fritz Pollard played any QB in professional football or not.

 

And it's interesting that their "Firsts by African-Americans in the Modern Era (Post-World War II)" section doesn't mention that James Harris was the first black quarterback to start a conference championship game.

[The Dean]

Thanks Dean. Interesting in their timeline that there's nothing between 1967 when Emlen Tunnell was enshrined in the HOF and 1987 when Doug Williams started the Super Bowl. Those are the years we're scratching our heads about.

 

Also getting conflicting reports on whether Fritz Pollard played any QB in professional football or not.

 

And it's interesting that their "Firsts by African-Americans in the Modern Era (Post-World War II)" section doesn't mention that James Harris was the first black quarterback to start a conference championship game.

 

 

I saw that, too. Terrible omission.

[The Dean]

I recall that James had a Great Arm but wasn't too accurate. I don't remember that many INT's but too many Incomplete Passes.

 

 

My recollection, as well. Looking at his stats, confirms that to some degree.

 

Early in his career his completion % was horrible (but based on few attempts). Later in his career, his % was in the low 50's, which is in line with many QBs of the day. (Offenses were much different, bump and run was allowed by DBs, etc)

[Offside Number 76]

Yep. I think you're right in terms of the "modern era." There's the Fritz Pollard and Willie Thrower stuff from before the merger and that's certainly significant too.

 

I guess the question now is who is the greatest black quarterback ever? I guess you'd have to say Donovan McNabb right now.

 

Thrower never started, right?

 

Agreed on McNabb, although Warren Moon could make a strong case for himself.

[Pitta]

Does Hamden count?

 

What a stupid question. Hamdan is not black, now is he? That's equivalent to asking if JP Losman would count.

[KRC]

Also getting conflicting reports on whether Fritz Pollard played any QB in professional football or not.

 

Pollard was a halfback. In those days, however, halfbacks also threw passes. Regardless, it would be a stretch to call him the first black quarterback.

 

Bobby Marshall was also in the NFL when Pollard was there (starting in 1920), but he played end. Rochester's own Henry McDonald also played pro ball, but never as a QB.

 

 

EDIT: I will go through the boxscores of the games played by Pollard to see if he lined up at QB at any point during his NFL career. I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

[KRC]

Here are the references to Pollard passing (from the PFRA archives): He primarily lined up as a tailback. He also lined up as a blocking back when not lined up as a tailback.

 

October 16, 1921

Akron Pros vs. Detroit Tigers

Pollard touchdown pass to Carl Cramer

 

October 18, 1925

Akron Pros vs. Canton Bulldogs

Pollard 55-yard touchdown pass to James Robertson

Pollard 12-yard touchdown pass to Obie Newman

 

November 1, 1925

Dayton Triangles vs. Akron Pros

Pollard touchdown pass to Red Daum

 

December 6, 1925

Green Bay Packers vs. Providence Steamroller

Pollard intercepted by Ed Kotal and returned 60 yards for a touchdown

 

September 25, 1926

Akron Indians vs. Frankford Yellowjackets

Pollard 45-yard touchdown pass to Nat McCombs

 

 

 

If you want to consider a tailback as a quarterback, then Pollard was the first black quarterback in the NFL.

[moovemtooelay]

Maybe you should find time in that social life to acquire a sense of humor and humility. (Does that satisfy your "sarcastic and predictable" requirement?)

 

I didn't say, or imply, anything negative. I was just bustin' your chops, a little. I find it a little bit odd that someone has the time to reply to a post while socializing (and somehow believes the answer wouldn't be posted by one of the hundreds of Bills' fans who visit here regularly), but not to red the few posts immediately following the first post. But I applaud your sense of duty/responsibility for other fans (I actually mean that).

 

 

Its all good "dean"..for someone who busts balls you sure do take it pretty hard.

 

I am on this board at least once a day. I just dont post that often. I have read your replies and post"s and generally agree with them. It would be impossible not to, you seem to be a part of every post. It just seems that people on this board can be so negative. I love the Bills when they win when they lose it doesnt make a difference to me. Here are the reasons I dont post on TSW

 

1. I dont hate Donte Whitner

2. I dont make 800 different personal Mock drafts

3. I dont think the Bills should sign everyone that gets cut.

4. I dont hate the front office

5. I dont pretend like I know whats best for the team when I have no working knowledge of what goes on behind closed doors.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!

 

With that said I will always enjoy this message board and will continue to visit

[The Dean]

Its all good "dean"..for someone who busts balls you sure do take it pretty hard.

 

I am on this board at least once a day. I just dont post that often. I have read your replies and post"s and generally agree with them. It would be impossible not to, you seem to be a part of every post. It just seems that people on this board can be so negative. I love the Bills when they win when they lose it doesnt make a difference to me. Here are the reasons I dont post on TSW

 

1. I dont hate Donte Whitner

2. I dont make 800 different personal Mock drafts

3. I dont think the Bills should sign everyone that gets cut.

4. I dont hate the front office

5. I dont pretend like I know whats best for the team when I have no working knowledge of what goes on behind closed doors.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!

 

With that said I will always enjoy this message board and will continue to visit

 

 

I wish you would post more. You would help provide some balance and reason.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Pollard was a halfback. In those days, however, halfbacks also threw passes. Regardless, it would be a stretch to call him the first black quarterback.

 

Bobby Marshall was also in the NFL when Pollard was there (starting in 1920), but he played end. Rochester's own Henry McDonald also played pro ball, but never as a QB.

 

 

EDIT: I will go through the boxscores of the games played by Pollard to see if he lined up at QB at any point during his NFL career. I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

 

 

Here are the references to Pollard passing (from the PFRA archives): He primarily lined up as a tailback. He also lined up as a blocking back when not lined up as a tailback.

 

October 16, 1921

Akron Pros vs. Detroit Tigers

Pollard touchdown pass to Carl Cramer

 

October 18, 1925

Akron Pros vs. Canton Bulldogs

Pollard 55-yard touchdown pass to James Robertson

Pollard 12-yard touchdown pass to Obie Newman

 

November 1, 1925

Dayton Triangles vs. Akron Pros

Pollard touchdown pass to Red Daum

 

December 6, 1925

Green Bay Packers vs. Providence Steamroller

Pollard intercepted by Ed Kotal and returned 60 yards for a touchdown

 

September 25, 1926

Akron Indians vs. Frankford Yellowjackets

Pollard 45-yard touchdown pass to Nat McCombs

 

 

 

If you want to consider a tailback as a quarterback, then Pollard was the first black quarterback in the NFL.

Wow. Thanks greatly KRC. Above and beyond brother. I'm glad there's a few others here interested in the history of pro football. For me it's a nice respite from the other stuff (25 pages of Flutie magic, 4 simultaneous posts regarding the Levitre situation, etc.). Now to catch up on todays' Bills camp news.

[KRC]

Wow. Thanks greatly KRC. Above and beyond brother. I'm glad there's a few others here interested in the history of pro football. For me it's a nice respite from the other stuff (25 pages of Flutie magic, 4 simultaneous posts regarding the Levitre situation, etc.). Now to catch up on todays' Bills camp news.

 

Thank you. As you can see from my sig, football history is more than just an interest...it is a passion.

[Buffalonian-at-Heart]

Maybe you should find time in that social life to acquire a sense of humor and humility. (Does that satisfy your "sarcastic and predictable" requirement?)

 

I didn't say, or imply, anything negative. I was just bustin' your chops, a little. I find it a little bit odd that someone has the time to reply to a post while socializing (and somehow believes the answer wouldn't be posted by one of the hundreds of Bills' fans who visit here regularly), but not to red the few posts immediately following the first post. But I applaud your sense of duty/responsibility for other fans (I actually mean that).

 

Dean, can't you sense people are getting tired of your insatiable need to correct everyone? Why don't you just scroll past mistakes like the rest of us do? You actually are making a fool out of yourself. And as I stated before, you are actually smart with a lot of good things to say, but you negate them with your contemptible behavior. Just stop! We are embarrassed FOR you.