Mickey Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 Until someone can explain where the goo came from, creationism has its place. 108607[/snapback] Its place is in bible class, not a science class. I am a strong advocate of teaching creationism instead of evolution in all schools except those attended by my children. I would love to see my kids competing for jobs with kids who were denied the fundamental knowledge underlying all the biological sciences.
chicot Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 Until someone can explain where the goo came from, creationism has its place. 108607[/snapback] Not really. Creationism doesn't solve that problem, just transfers it to a convenient father figure. You now have the problem of where did God come from?
Alaska Darin Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 Its place is in bible class, not a science class. I am a strong advocate of teaching creationism instead of evolution in all schools except those attended by my children. I would love to see my kids competing for jobs with kids who were denied the fundamental knowledge underlying all the biological sciences. 108700[/snapback] How is that different from now?
Kelly the Dog Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 Not really. Creationism doesn't solve that problem, just transfers it to a convenient father figure. You now have the problem of where did God come from? 108705[/snapback] He's God, he made Himself up.
Alaska Darin Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 He's God, he made Himself up. 108710[/snapback] Nah, he's always just been here.
stuckincincy Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 Its place is in bible class, not a science class. I am a strong advocate of teaching creationism instead of evolution in all schools except those attended by my children. I would love to see my kids competing for jobs with kids who were denied the fundamental knowledge underlying all the biological sciences. 108700[/snapback] What makes you think that kids are not being taught science, nationwide? A bigger problem is the typical 70% or less attendence rates in most large cities, and kids being raised by third parties. Well, FWIW: Pascal's Wager: "An arguement made by Blaise Pascal for believing in God. Pascal said either God exists or he does not. If so, and we wager that it is so, we have won an eternity of bliss. If not, and death is final what has one lost? On the other hand, if one wagers against God's existence and is wrong, there is eternal damnation."
Mickey Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 Gosh darn right! There are pointy headed evil-ution lovers that say, "Get a life, the missing links are austropithecines such as ramidus and afarensis, as well as homo habilus and homo erectus" but they don't have a clue what they're talking about because where are the links BETWEEN those links? 108682[/snapback] Wow, what brilliant unassailable logic. You need to write an academic paper and publish it, you'll be famous as the genius who disproved evolution. Why oh why could the scientists not see what you see so clearly, it is all so simple. I guess it took a real simpleton to see it. I look forward to your publication and reading your name in lights. I guess when they come up with links between those links, you'll then complain that they haven't found links between the links between the links. It is like the old game about creating a crumb so small that it can't be cut in half. By the way, the theory you are discussing or more accurately, missing the point of, is not the theory of evolution, it is the theory of common descent. Biological evolution means "a change in allele frequencies over time." In that sense, it is an indisputable fact. Evolution Information "Common descent is a "theory" but not in the sense that creationists use it. A theory, in the scientific sense, is "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" [Random House American College Dictionary]. The term does not imply tentativeness or lack of certainty which is how creationists use the term. Proof, in the mathematical sense, is possible only if you have the luxury of defining the universe you're operating in. In the real world, we must deal with levels of certainty based on observed evidence. The more and better evidence we have for something, the more certainty we assign to it; when there is enough evidence, we label the something a fact, even though it still isn't 100% certain. What evolution has is what any good scientific claim has--evidence, and lots of it. Evolution is supported by a wide range of observations throughout the fields of genetics, anatomy, ecology, animal behavior, paleontology, and others. If you wish to challenge the theory of evolution, you must address that evidence. "
OnTheRocks Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 i really don't get how some of you can deny Creationism. Design demands designer. Creation demands creator. This thread topic gets rehashed about every six months. Not beleiving in creation would be like looking at the watch on my wrist...and thinking that it just came into being over millions of years. Silly thought right? The human body is the most complex design of all creation. If you think it would be silly for a wrist watch to just "be".....it makes less sense to think it is possible for the human body.
stuckincincy Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 We have all heard the words, "There are no Atheists in the foxhole". Because I am old, I have witnessed quite a few people when their life was ending. I'm still waiting for someone to say "It's just evolution". Quite the contrary, the words from the atheists and evolutionists and agnostics, who spent a lifetime mocking people of faith, who vowed that they were KzooMike suckers, invariabily have said in their time of need, "Why me God? Help me God". Plenty of people talk their anti-God game when they are healthy, but undergo an instant conversion when ill... Hypocrits.
Alaska Darin Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 We have all heard the words, "There are no Atheists in the foxhole". Because I am old, I have witnessed quite a few people when their life was ending. I'm still waiting for someone to say "It's just evolution". Quite the contrary, the words from the atheists and evolutionints and agnostics I have known are invariabily, "Why me God? Help me God". Plenty of people talk their anti-God game when they are healthy, but undergo an instant conversion when ill... Hypocrits. 108738[/snapback] As opposed to the religious zealots who kill people who disagree with them? There are plenty of examples of hypocrisy on each side of the argument.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 We have all heard the words, "There are no Atheists in the foxhole". Because I am old, I have witnessed quite a few people when their life was ending. I'm still waiting for someone to say "It's just evolution". Quite the contrary, the words from the atheists and evolutionints and agnostics I have known are invariabily, "Why me God? Help me God". Plenty of people talk their anti-God game when they are healthy, but undergo an instant conversion when ill... Hypocrits. 108738[/snapback] That's because all one has to do to go to Heaven, apparently, is live your life as a sinner for as many years as you live and do whatever the hell you want and then just before you die, confess and believe. Right?
stuckincincy Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 That's because all one has to do to go to Heaven, apparently, is live your life as a sinner for as many years as you live and do whatever the hell you want and then just before you die, confess and believe. Right? 108750[/snapback] Wrong. That's an old one, along the lines of "Hey you believe in God so you have to be understanding of me even though I killed yor wife, and God forgives a sinner, after all, right". That would imply an incredible stupidness on the part of God. But, roll your own dice and wonder.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 Wrong. That's an old one, along the lines of "Hey you believe in God so you have to be understanding of me even though I killed yor wife, and God forgives a sinner, after all, right". That would imply an incredible stupidness on the part of God. But, roll your own dice and wonder. 108770[/snapback] Seriously, how long is the statute of limitations for confessing and believing? I really don't know. Is there a set time? Is it NOT true that all one has to do in your belief system is to simply confess and simply believe? I am really being serious here. I thought that was true. What else is there if one wants to go to Heaven according to the church?
OnTheRocks Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 That's because all one has to do to go to Heaven, apparently, is live your life as a sinner for as many years as you live and do whatever the hell you want and then just before you die, confess and believe. Right? 108750[/snapback] again...what "cincy" said earlier...and you can mock it all you want...but it is an issue of the heart. Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
stuckincincy Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 Seriously, how long is the statute of limitations for confessing and believing? I really don't know. Is there a set time? Is it NOT true that all one has to do in your belief system is to simply confess and simply believe? I am really being serious here. I thought that was true. What else is there if one wants to go to Heaven according to the church? 108775[/snapback] I'll get to your question - it's been a question that originated a couple of thousand years ago, but: Firstly, the "church", as I know it, exists as a vehicle that has two purposes: One, inspire people to pay homage to God. That is the chief thing. The most important thing of all. The second thing is that churches end up doing many good social things. You see hospitals like Mercy, Sisters, and here in cincy, Jewish, Christ, and so forth. St Vincent de Paul. The Salvation Army. Useless as some may brand religion, and it's beleivers, we all depend on it's effect - the charities, the medical facilities, the schools, the help for the dregs of society, and so forth. Missionaries throught the globe. Fine universities and schools worldwide. I'd think you would agree these are desireable things. And I await the privately funded "Liberal Hospital", or the "Secular Low-Cost Nursing Home"... But to your ancient question. No one on Earth has answered it yet - it's unknown. I wish I could conjure something up for you. But it is a matter of faith, that justice be served. If it gives you satisfication that I cannot answer what great minds through centuries have pondered, ok. Myself, I'd set it at three years minimum.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 again...what "cincy" said earlier...and you can mock it all you want...but it is an issue of the heart. Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 108808[/snapback] So in other words, yes. And I am not mocking it, I am saying that all one needs to do is anything he or she wants, but as soon as he or she gets in the foxhole and believes, he or she is saved. That seems rather odd I would say.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 I'll get to your question - it's been a question that originated a couple of thousand years ago, but: Firstly, the "church", as I know it, exists as a vehicle that has two purposes: One, inspire people to pay homage to God. That is the chief thing. The most important thing of all. The second thing is that churches end up doing many good social things. You see hospitals like Mercy, Sisters, and here in cincy, Jewish, Christ, and so forth. St Vincent de Paul. The Salvation Army. Useless as some may brand religion, and it's beleivers, we all depend on it's effect - the charities, the medical facilities, the schools, the help for the dregs of society, and so forth. Missionaries throught the globe. Fine universities and schools worldwide. I'd think you would agree these are desireable things. And I await the privately funded "Liberal Hospital", or the "Secular Low-Cost Nursing Home"... But to your ancient question. No one on Earth has answered it yet - it's unknown. I wish I could conjure something up for you. But it is a matter of faith, that justice be served. If it gives you satisfication that I cannot answer what great minds through centuries have pondered, ok. Myself, I'd set it at three years minimum. 108821[/snapback] Personally I think your faith is great, for you, because you believe it and it seems to me that it guides you and makes you a better person and citizen. That is tremendous and I wish that more people would think like you do. All people, in fact, if that is what they believe and it works for them. I think Church is great and churchgoers are great if that is also what makes them better people. I don't want them infringing on my life but I do, truly, and wthout question, think faith, anyone's faith, if it works for them, is fantastic. I am not for hypocrites of any kind but I would suspect neither are you. I did, however, always believe that in the bible, and in the teachings of the church, as OnTheRocks quoted just above, that it states clearly and cleanly that all you have to do is believe and you are saved and go to Heaven. So it matters not what you do your entire natural life as long as at the last moment, or in that foxhole, or in the last few months or years of your life, you do suddenly believe. I mean, God wouldn't put it in the bible or teach it in the church if it were not true, would He? That IS what it says, isn't it? Why is there 2000 years of debate on this as you say, it seems clear. I am non-religious. I was born Jewish and went to temple and have tremendous, utmost respect for my lineage and heritage and religion and other Jews. They are in large part awesome breeds. I am just not a believer. I am happy for all believers but I am just not one of them. I don't feel like I need religion to give my life meaning at all. My life has tremendous meaning by being a good person and good to my family and relations and friends and neighbors 24-7-365, not just on sundays or the sabbath or national holidays. I am not atheist, I just do not believe there is very good proof of "A" God. I find it nearly impossible to believe in religion as a whole because it means you think you are right and most of the world is wrong. That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And what if you're wrong and they're right, that Allah is God? Is that not possible or is it only possible that you are right? because they certainly believe it their religion as surely as you believe in yours. Frankly, and in all honesty, I think there may be a God of some form. There very well may be a supreme being looking over us. And I strongly believe, despite what humans put in the bible and torah and koran and other such books, that if there IS a God, and He or She really is looking down on us, and knows all, and knows what is in our hearts and souls, that He would know what is in my heart, He would know what I truly think behind closed doors, He would know I never hit or hurt a fellow human being in my life, He would know what I think about people that are unlike me, He would know how I treat everyone in the real world on a daily basis, and He would prefer me, and even bless me, before He would bless a churchgoing believer that treats his fellow man like crap, that has sinned repeatedly, that is a bad if not horrible human being most of the year except sunday and holidays. If God were really that knowing, He may not tell people, but He would prefer someone like me, even though I am by no means perfect or without sin, to someone like that, despite the teachings that he only cares if one believes in Him. That is what I believe. And it makes me a better person 24-7-365.
OGTEleven Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 So in other words, yes. And I am not mocking it, I am saying that all one needs to do is anything he or she wants, but as soon as he or she gets in the foxhole and believes, he or she is saved. That seems rather odd I would say. 108825[/snapback] That depends on your interpretation of the word belief. A cursory belief or one for the sake of excuses or "get out of jail free" cards is not true belief. One with a true belief would do their best every day to not commit sin. Nobody will completely adhere to this but there is value in the effort. God is not an insurance company. You can't tell him you put 12,000 mile a year on your car when you really drive 50,000.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 That depends on your interpretation of the word belief. A cursory believe or one for the sake of excuses or "get out of jail free" cards is not true belief. One with a true belief would do their best every day to not commit sin. Nobody will completely adhere to this but there is value in the effort. God is not an insurance company. You can't tell him you put 12,000 mile a year on your car when you really drive 50,000. 108853[/snapback] I agree with that. And I am not saying that all one would have to do is say they believe and get the "get out of hell free card", although apparently the literal translation may say that. But if one is in that foxhole, or on one's deathbed, I could easily imagine that they could truly, suddenly, believe or have an epiphany. I mean, that seems to happen to people all the time that had a life threatenig or life-altering experience and faced with death.
OGTEleven Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 We're not a collection of molecules? I'm a carbon-based life form. What are you? When I look up at the stars I think that very thing, I'm surprisingly comfortable with it. My molecules --- hydrogens, oxygens, nitrogens, etc. --- will all get recycled back to the earth when I go. 108661[/snapback] Which molecule gave you the ability to determine that you are just a bunch of molecules? Do you have free will? If you do, then you must somehow control these molecules. What gives you that power? If you are truly just a collection of molecules then free will is a mere illusion. However complex and intricate the reactions of your molecules are, they would clearly have to be predetermined because molecules react with each other the same way every time. This predetermination would apply to everything that exists.
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