OGTEleven Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 Frankly, and in all honesty, I think there may be a God of some form. There very well may be a supreme being looking over us. And I strongly believe, despite what humans put in the bible and torah and koran and other such books, that if there IS a God, and He or She really is looking down on us, and knows all, and knows what is in our hearts and souls, that He would know what is in my heart, He would know what I truly think behind closed doors, He would know I never hit or hurt a fellow human being in my life, He would know what I think about people that are unlike me, He would know how I treat everyone in the real world on a daily basis, and He would prefer me, and even bless me, before He would bless a churchgoing believer that treats his fellow man like crap, that has sinned repeatedly, that is a bad if not horrible human being most of the year except sunday and holidays. If God were really that knowing, He may not tell people, but He would prefer someone like me, even though I am by no means perfect or without sin, to someone like that, despite the teachings that he only cares if one believes in Him. That is what I believe. And it makes me a better person 24-7-365. 108847[/snapback] Outside of two things I think this is a great post: 1. It is Fake-Fat-Sunny-esque (seems to be a developing trend) 2. I'm not in lock step with you on the areas I bolded. The first part I pretty much agree with, but by no means do I know it. I believe there are many facets to this and those that you mention are just a few. The second part I highlighted is what I disagree with. I think only God can judge who is a better person. Neither you or I know everything about other people (or even about ourselves). What if the best that person could do with what God gave him/her was go to church on Sunday and be a jerk for the rest of the week? He or she may have demons they are fighting that manifest themselves in odd ways. What if you or I was good every single day but we had a God given ability to solve world hunger and were too lazy to work on it? I think there are many levels to this. There are probably more than we understand.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 Outside of two things I think this is a great post: 1. It is Fake-Fat-Sunny-esque (seems to be a developing trend) 2. I'm not in lock step with you on the areas I bolded. The first part I pretty much agree with, but by no means do I know it. I believe there are many facets to this and those that you mention are just a few. The second part I highlighted is what I disagree with. I think only God can judge who is a better person. Neither you or I know everything about other people (or even about ourselves). What if the best that person could do with what God gave him/her was go to church on Sunday and be a jerk for the rest of the week? He or she may have demons they are fighting that manifest themselves in odd ways. What if you or I was good every single day but we had a God given ability to solve world hunger and were too lazy to work on it? I think there are many levels to this. There are probably more than we understand. 108881[/snapback] True, where we disagree is free will and destiny. I fully believe that people can change who they are. We make our own decisions. I gather that you do not agree with this but that's cool with me, we're just different. There are few, or no excuses for behavior, IMO, especially on the big issues like, say, commandments. And that no matter what you were given in life you cannot be perfect but you can be a great person and citizen, even if it is incredibly difficult. That's just what I believe. I try to be a good person on my own free will as much as I can, knowing that I will not always be good, but also knowing the more I try the more I am. And little discrepancies are not as harmful to others as the biggies. As to the first part, I don't know it either. Obviously. I just believe it. Just as you do not know about your faith, only your belief.
OGTEleven Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 True, where we disagree is free will and destiny. I fully believe that people can change who they are. We make our own decisions. I gather that you do not agree with this but that's cool with me, we're just different. There are few, or no excuses for behavior, IMO, especially on the big issues like, say, commandments. And that no matter what you were given in life you cannot be perfect but you can be a great person and citizen, even if it is incredibly difficult. That's just what I believe. I try to be a good person on my own free will as much as I can, knowing that I will not always be good, but also knowing the more I try the more I am. And little discrepancies are not as harmful to others as the biggies. 108900[/snapback] No, no. I'm not that far off from your opinion, just a bit. I think that most behavior has no excuses and that you would probably be right 99.9% of the time in your judgment of a good person 7/24/365 having a better shot with God than a church going jerk. I don't think that holds true 100% of the time. Some people are born smarter than others (not better, just smarter). I'd bet God judges them with that in mind. If you're a nice guy all the time and never hurt anyone but also decide not to cure cancer (even though you can) because you'd rather go to Tahiti, you're sort of like the church going jerk aren't you? Maybe .1% of the church going jerks have to work hard just to go to church and aren't smart enough to understand that they need to bring church with them all week (I think .1% is a high number on this, maybe .0001%). Or maybe these people are just wired so that they are easily overcome by events. My observations are pretty much in line with what you say, I'm just not as sold that I can make a final judgement of who is the better person. In the end, I can only measure myself against myself. Could I have done more?
OGTEleven Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 True, where we disagree is free will and destiny. 108900[/snapback] Separate reply to the same post: I think we totally agree on this part. My free will post to UConn dude was rhetorical. I believe that anyone that believes in free will has to believe there is a God by definition. Without a God, we are just a bunch of molecules. The interactions between matter and energy, although not fully understood, are finite and can be explained. This would eliminate any possibility of free will. I believe in free will.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 No, no. I'm not that far off from your opinion, just a bit. I think that most behavior has no excuses and that you would probably be right 99.9% of the time in your judgment of a good person 7/24/365 having a better shot with God than a church going jerk. I don't think that holds true 100% of the time. Some people are born smarter than others (not better, just smarter). I'd bet God judges them with that in mind. If you're a nice guy all the time and never hurt anyone but also decide not to cure cancer (even though you can) because you'd rather go to Tahiti, you're sort of like the church going jerk aren't you? Maybe .1% of the church going jerks have to work hard just to go to church and aren't smart enough to understand that they need to bring church with them all week (I think .1% is a high number on this, maybe .0001%). Or maybe these people are just wired so that they are easily overcome by events. My observations are pretty much in line with what you say, I'm just not as sold that I can make a final judgement of who is the better person. In the end, I can only measure myself against myself. Could I have done more? 108912[/snapback] I agree with most of that. I would not be the one to judge who is a better person, and what I did makes me a better person than what someone else did. Of course, we're using this as example of if there were a God and He did know and would He bless me. I would have no say in that. I am only saying that I try to be the best person I can with what I have. And I decide if whether going to church is more important than working on my cure for cancer. I do not go to church or temple and find no need in my life for it. I feel fulfilled. I feel my life has meaning. Now, for me, I do no such thing as working to cure cancer either, I write crappy movies for a living. But I am talking about everyday things, everyday choices of saying hi to people on the street, going out of my way to hold doors open, engaging strangers, joking with random folks and making them laugh a little, challenging a little kid, NOT punching out some idiot that may deserve to be punched (for I believe the NON decisions are as important as the decisions), stuff like that.
OGTEleven Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 I agree with most of that. I would not be the one to judge who is a better person, and what I did makes me a better person than what someone else did. Of course, we're using this as example of if there were a God and He did know and would He bless me. I would have no say in that. I am only saying that I try to be the best person I can with what I have. And I decide if whether going to church is more important than working on my cure for cancer. I do not go to church or temple and find no need in my life for it. I feel fulfilled. I feel my life has meaning. Now, for me, I do no such thing as working to cure cancer either, I write crappy movies for a living. But I am talking about everyday things, everyday choices of saying hi to people on the street, going out of my way to hold doors open, engaging strangers, joking with random folks and making them laugh a little, challenging a little kid, NOT punching out some idiot that may deserve to be punched (for I believe the NON decisions are as important as the decisions), stuff like that. 108922[/snapback] I agree with all of that except the cancer thingy was just an extreme example, and if I see a kid with a dolphins coat on I beat the living stevestojan out of him and then tell God I feel very sorry.
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 We have all heard the words, "There are no Atheists in the foxhole". Because I am old, I have witnessed quite a few people when their life was ending. I'm still waiting for someone to say "It's just evolution". Quite the contrary, the words from the atheists and evolutionists and agnostics, who spent a lifetime mocking people of faith, who vowed that they were KzooMike suckers, invariabily have said in their time of need, "Why me God? Help me God". Plenty of people talk their anti-God game when they are healthy, but undergo an instant conversion when ill... Hypocrits. 108738[/snapback] Well thats makes you have more wisdom than my Catholic Church...we were taught that at the time of our death, if we were to say an Act of Contrition, we would go to heaven... so please tell me how the teachings of my church are less than yours.
Mickey Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 What makes you think that kids are not being taught science, nationwide? A bigger problem is the typical 70% or less attendence rates in most large cities, and kids being raised by third parties. Well, FWIW: Pascal's Wager: "An arguement made by Blaise Pascal for believing in God. Pascal said either God exists or he does not. If so, and we wager that it is so, we have won an eternity of bliss. If not, and death is final what has one lost? On the other hand, if one wagers against God's existence and is wrong, there is eternal damnation." 108722[/snapback] I'm not sure what the existence of a divine being has to do with evolution and common descent. I can wager perfectly well on the existence of God without at the same time betting on the literal truth of the bible and the story of Genesis. My comment on schools was not a statement on what science is taught in schools. What I would like to see is creationism taught in place of evolution in schools not attended by my children. A number of school districts in a number of states would like to do just that and since my kids don't go to those schools, I say great, let them teach that all they want, somebody has to wait on tables and pump gas.
Mickey Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 i really don't get how some of you can deny Creationism. Design demands designer. Creation demands creator. This thread topic gets rehashed about every six months. Not beleiving in creation would be like looking at the watch on my wrist...and thinking that it just came into being over millions of years. Silly thought right? The human body is the most complex design of all creation. If you think it would be silly for a wrist watch to just "be".....it makes less sense to think it is possible for the human body. 108727[/snapback] Apparently you see no design in the process of natural selection, why? Order can come from chaos and disorder. Witness snowflakes, sand dunes and graded river beds. When you talk of believing in "creation", do you refer to believing in the literal truth of the biblical story of creation or something else? Though I do not agree with them, plenty of scientists and men of faith see no conflict between belief in a divine creator and evolution. The conflict only arises with those whose literal interpretation of the bible leaves them no choice but to deny science.
Mickey Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 We have all heard the words, "There are no Atheists in the foxhole". Because I am old, I have witnessed quite a few people when their life was ending. I'm still waiting for someone to say "It's just evolution". Quite the contrary, the words from the atheists and evolutionists and agnostics, who spent a lifetime mocking people of faith, who vowed that they were KzooMike suckers, invariabily have said in their time of need, "Why me God? Help me God". Plenty of people talk their anti-God game when they are healthy, but undergo an instant conversion when ill... Hypocrits. 108738[/snapback] Yes, in the most desperate moment of a person's life what a shock it is to find that they would grasp at any straw, any hope no matter how faint, to stave off death. If anything it is indicative of just how desperately we need there to be a God to make the certainty of death a palatable, endurable horror. We need him so desperately that if he did not exist, surely, with our imaginations, we would have invented him to spare us the agony of our own mortality and give life to the greatest of human yearnings, immortality.
Wham Rocks Posted November 9, 2004 Author Posted November 9, 2004 You guys are getting way too carried away with all this jibber jabber about the technicalities of evil-ution. Everyone knows that life started with a talking serpent and a forbidden, magical tree, not a bunch of friggin' molecules and atoms and stuff. The fact that people don't believe in something as sensible as talking snakes makes me so mad!!!
IBTG81 Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 Another religion thread. I've posted on this many times, and many know my feelings. The cliffs-notes version: Religion was created to keep people in line, based upon their fears. The human mind hates uncertainty, thus it created a "god". Not my right to tell someone what to believe and what not to.
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 You guys are getting way too carried away with all this jibber jabber about the technicalities of evil-ution. Everyone knows that life started with a talking serpent and a forbidden, magical tree, not a bunch of friggin' molecules and atoms and stuff. The fact that people don't believe in something as sensible as talking snakes makes me so mad!!! 109064[/snapback] It's jibber-jabber when after you were taken to task by another believer who disagreed with your approach, you dissapeared into thin air. BTW, George Michael is GAY. Wham Rocks is an utterly hilarious name considering your posts. What a hoot
OnTheRocks Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 So in other words, yes. And I am not mocking it, I am saying that all one needs to do is anything he or she wants, but as soon as he or she gets in the foxhole and believes, he or she is saved. That seems rather odd I would say. 108825[/snapback] it certainly is. it is one of the reasons the Hymn Amazing Grace is probably the most popular hymn of all time. It is God's Grace that saves the lost soul. And that Grace is greater than our sin. "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me.... I once was lost but now am found, Was blind, but now, I see."
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 It's jibber-jabber when after you were taken to task by another believer who disagreed with your approach, you dissapeared into thin air. BTW, George Michael is GAY. Wham Rocks is an utterly hilarious name considering your posts. What a hoot 109086[/snapback] Um I think he's being facetious.
Alaska Darin Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 Um I think he's being facetious. 109166[/snapback] The Liberals have always had a huge problem grasping nuance. Hence the reason they are able to ignore the continued and massive failures of government and its vain attempts to cure the ills that face us.
UConn James Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 i really don't get how some of you can deny Creationism. Design demands designer. Creation demands creator. The human body is the most complex design of all creation. 108727[/snapback] You mean like the computers that go through all different permutations to solve problems like grids, string through DNA sequences, etc? Everything is comprised of the interaction b/w atoms/molecules and probabilities in the microcosm that come to pass as the world we experience in the macrocosm. We mistake free will for things that have been imprinted on us by our biology and experiences; Hard Determinism rears its ugly head.... And no, the body human is most definitely not the most complex of "design;" it's a collection of advantageous features for survival. Is the horse, chimpanzee, wolf, blue whale, etc., somehow less complex than our own bodies? You have a very high opinion of homo sapiens.
OGTEleven Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 You mean like the computers that go through all different permutations to solve problems like grids, string through DNA sequences, etc? Everything is comprised of the interaction b/w atoms/molecules and probabilities in the microcosm that come to pass as the world we experience in the macrocosm. We mistake free will for things that have been imprinted on us by our biology and experiences; Hard Determinism rears its ugly head.... And no, the body human is most definitely not the most complex of "design;" it's a collection of advantageous features for survival. Is the horse, chimpanzee, wolf, blue whale, etc., somehow less complex than our own bodies? You have a very high opinion of homo sapiens. 109228[/snapback] Your avatar and sig line show pride in your school. Why are you so proud of this pre-determined outcome?
John Adams Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 Why can't some of you respond to what Mickey is saying? The problem of Creationism isn't that one religion wants its story told. I think a survey of major world religions would be FANTASTIC to teach to older kids. In history, teachers have to dance around religious issues and yet religion is such a huge part of history. How teachers teach history without giveing their students a fundamental understanding of the religions that underlie t he cultures is beyond me. That being said, Creationsim has NO PLACE in science classes, except for about 15 seconds that goes like this, "Science is not perfect. Scientists theorize about what HAS happened, what IS happening, and what WILL happen. Unfortunately, along the way, scientists can't explain every nuance of these theories. You can fill the nuances and the theoretical failings in by saying that only god can explain the nuances and failings. And that's OK, but that god answer is not science." You see, god is fine. God does explain things. But Creationism is not a scientific theory any more than a statement like "God is infinite" explains what the Higg's Boson particle is. If you want to know about the Higg's Boson particle, you don't consult the Bible, because it's not science. That doesn't diminish science or religion. Nor does it mean they are exclusive (microbiologists love saying that God is in the details of their work). IT just means that when studying science, study science, not religion. If you want to study the science/religion overlap, study philosophy.
UConn James Posted November 9, 2004 Posted November 9, 2004 Your avatar and sig line show pride in your school. Why are you so proud of this pre-determined outcome? 109260[/snapback] Because Emeka and Diana have mad basketball skills! The physical skills they inherited from their forebears --- like Diana's amazing peripheral vision on no-look passes that's probably about 10 percent better than even an above average person. Emeka's amazingly long arms and hand-eye co-ordination for shot-blocking. This combined with the experiences in training, diet, etc. If you're meaning that it was somehow predetermined for UConn to win? Well, it was a confluence of all kinds of different factors. Hard determinism doesn't advocate that results of everything were necessarily written in stone at the Big Bang. It takes hard work to get things done. The world is what we make of it, using what resources we have.
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