DrFishfinder Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 As far as confidence goes, I have more confidence issues with a certain head coach with the initials "DJ" than Lindell. I also have more confidence issues with TE staying healthy for an entire season as well as the revolving bunch of yearly turnstiles that serves as a so-called offensive line. I'll throw in a dose of lack of confidence in Fewell's ability to show any flexibility whatsoever when his defense is getting roasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naj377 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Bobby April, as far as we know, has made zero overtures to Russ et al. to find a replacement. In fact, the only thing April has done is beam that he has Lindell for placement of the ball on kickoffs (Remember how we've had the #1 ST in the league several times recently? Yeah. He's a part of that), and he's not that bad on FGs either. Had some misses last year. It happens. But he's also playing in some nasty conditions. Bring a lot of the warm weather kickers up to B-lo and watch their numbers tank... plus they'd be useless in STs and all the gadget stuff that April likes to do. Bottom line --- if Bobby April is good with Lindell, I'm good with Lindell. lindell isnt as clutch as he kicker should be, yes buffalo is hard but thats his job he is paid a sh-- ton of money to make kicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 lindell isnt as clutch as he kicker should be, yes buffalo is hard but thats his job he is paid a sh-- ton of money to make kicks He's not un-clutch...it's just that the instances when he misses a clutch kick resonate louder in your memory. I would hazard to guess that his FG % in "clutch" situations is just about equal to his career percentage of 80. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I'm sorry, but this to me smacks of a loser's mentality. We should be trying to improve EVERY position on this team. I'm not saying Lindell's the man or not the man. But I think his performance last year merits a serious look for something better. To say he's "good enough" even though he cost us at least one game last year. He also missed several other big kicks when the game was not on the line. I'm thinkin' he missed a couple against the Jets which was a winnable game. Maybe it's just that I place a higher value on FG kickers than many others on here. You gotta have a really good one to win. I want to win THIS FREAKIN' YEAR !!! Well I just think that Lindell is good enough for a playoff team and OK for a Super Bowl caliber team. We can win with Lindell we can win a Super Bowl with Lindell. However if you tell me we are a Super Bowl team I think we could use a upgrade at kicker. We aren't going to miss or make the playoffs because of Lindell. Edwards the O-line and Schobels health are some of the reasons why we will or won't make the playoffs. To me its not a losers mentality its just being realistic knowing its hard to find a kicker better than Lindell so spending resources for a slight upgrade just isn't pragmatic. I am with you, we should be hoping to win every year but to me lets just try and get in the playoffs and see what happens you can't win it if you are not in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 He's not un-clutch...it's just that the instances when he misses a clutch kick resonate louder in your memory. I would hazard to guess that his FG % in "clutch" situations is just about equal to his career percentage of 80. PROVE IT I looked into your challenge for me to prove my point. 2 out of the last 5 years the winning SB kicker was Adam Vennetari. I think it's safe to say he's better than every other kicker in the league including the ones on average teams. Don't get me wrong. I don't think Lindell's horrible, but he did have a bad year last year. It wasn't just the Clowns kick. I just think we should be looking for someone better. I think the same for the QB, DE, DT, LB, and OL positions as well. As far as kickers from southern teams coming into the Ralph. I'll never forget watching Nick Folk of the Drugboyz kicking 2 straight 60+ yard FGs in the Ralph for the win in 2007. I also remember the kicker for the Clowns making several very long kicks including one to go ahead with 2:00 to go in the same windy stadium as Lindell. Didn't bother him too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 PROVE IT I looked into your challenge for me to prove my point. 2 out of the last 5 years the winning SB kicker was Adam Vennetari. I think it's safe to say he's better than every other kicker in the league including the ones on average teams. Don't get me wrong. I don't think Lindell's horrible, but he did have a bad year last year. It wasn't just the Clowns kick. I just think we should be looking for someone better. I think the same for the QB, DE, DT, LB, and OL positions as well. As far as kickers from southern teams coming into the Ralph. I'll never forget watching Nick Folk of the Drugboyz kicking 2 straight 60+ yard FGs in the Ralph for the win in 2007. I also remember the kicker for the Clowns making several very long kicks including one to go ahead with 2:00 to go in the same windy stadium as Lindell. Didn't bother him too much. Vinatieri is better than every other kicker in the league? How so? And I, unfortunately, can't prove my point because there is no standard definition over what constitutes a "clutch" kick. By the way, I'm not trying to be argumentative and I apologize if my last post came across as condescending...I just happen to think that kickers are interchangeable parts. There is very little variance statistically between the "good kickers" and "bad kickers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Vinatieri is better than every other kicker in the league? How so? And I, unfortunately, can't prove my point because there is no standard definition over what constitutes a "clutch" kick. By the way, I'm not trying to be argumentative and I apologize if my last post came across as condescending...I just happen to think that kickers are interchangeable parts. There is very little variance statistically between the "good kickers" and "bad kickers". Well, certainly the kick he missed against the 17-16 loss to the Colts in '06, or the miss with a minute to go in last season's 29-27 Monday nite loss to Cleveland would count as 'clutch', IMO. But here's something I didn't know 'til now - Lindell has never (and I hate saying this, for obvious reasons) missed a PAT - he's 282/282 and holds the NFL record for consecutive PATs. I tend to agree that Lindell's career stats are very close to or on a par with any of the elite placekickers - I think the big dropoff in FG % from 92% in '06 to 78% in '08 is what causes some of the angst your seeing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I haven't felt it since the Gogolak days! GO BILLSSS!!!! I know what you're saying Senator but as you know all things are relative. Gogolak was the best kicker in the league at 59%. Lindell is an average kicker at 80%. I'm sorry, but this to me smacks of a loser's mentality. We should be trying to improve EVERY position on this team. I'm not saying Lindell's the man or not the man. But I think his performance last year merits a serious look for something better. To say he's "good enough" even though he cost us at least one game last year. He also missed several other big kicks when the game was not on the line. I'm thinkin' he missed a couple against the Jets which was a winnable game. Fair enough reddog but what would you have had the Bills do this offseason to improve over Lindell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I know what you're saying Senator but as you know all things are relative. Gogolak was the best kicker in the league at 59%. Lindell is an average kicker at 80%. But Gogolak went to Cornell. Anyway, I'll take the 'average' Rian Lindell over the World Champion Steeler's... Jeff Reed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 But Gogolak went to Cornell. Anyway, I'll take the 'average' Rian Lindell over the World Champion Steeler's... Jeff Reed That guy doesn't look like Vince Gill. Something is terribly wrong with The Senator! Please, someone call for help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 That guy doesn't look like Vince Gill. Something is terribly wrong with The Senator! Please, someone call for help! All I can say is, if you're unhappy with your placekicker, follow the example of... Mike Leach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Vinatieri is better than every other kicker in the league? How so? And I, unfortunately, can't prove my point because there is no standard definition over what constitutes a "clutch" kick. By the way, I'm not trying to be argumentative and I apologize if my last post came across as condescending...I just happen to think that kickers are interchangeable parts. There is very little variance statistically between the "good kickers" and "bad kickers". I'd say Adam Vinatieri is the best kicker in the NFL based on the number of clutch kicks I've seen him make. I can go back to the OT kick in Buffalo in a blizzard in 2000 in one of Flutie's last games. Then there was the Super Bowl game winning kick. Then there was the tuck rule game game winner in the snow. On and on and on. Part of that may be due to the team he was on etc. But he delivers the goods. If he's not the best in the NFL today, who is? No prob on the argumentative thing. It's cool. We'll just have agree to disagree on the "interchangeable parts" thing with kickers. Maybe "there is very little variance statistically between the "good kickers" and "bad kickers"." But still, I couldn't disagree more. Stats don't tell the whole story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Fair enough reddog but what would you have had the Bills do this offseason to improve over Lindell? Bring in some contenders or would be contenders. Scour the free agent wire. Maybe a guy who was out of football last year and hungry to get back in. Maybe an Arena guy. Then announce that you're opening it and have kicking competition in training camp. If Lindell's the guy, make him earn it. It would be good for him and the Bills. If one of the other guys is better, keep him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpcolosi Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I was reading the following post on the Bleacher Report: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/219198-...ay-out-of-a-job Would be interested in hearing people's view on this. The article/post makes some interesting points but overall tries to re-write history a bit much for my taste. I.e. the "nail in the coffin" against pittsburgh in 2004 is not really accurate. I believe the kick would have put us up by 4pts near the end of the 3rd qtr. Not exactly a nail in anyone's coffin with a full qtr to play and only a 4pt lead... We ended up losing that game by 5... The 2006 example vs. Indy is a decent example (I suppose). That kick would have given the Bills the lead (they were down 17-16 with 6mins left vs. the future super bowl champs) and it was only a 40ish yard attempt. Probably should have hit that one. With respect to the Browns game, our offense could have found a way to get the guy closer in the closing minutes of that game (run-run-run i believe were the final 3 play calls for virtually no gain) and that kick was close to 50yrds in the wind, so it was no gimmee. But that one did hurt... He also neglects to mention the 2007 game vs. Redskins. You remember the game that Joe Gibbs called 2 Time outs in a row to try to ice Lindell? Rian made both of those kicks, the first from 51yards out and the second from 36 after the unsportsmanlike penalty. That kick was to win the game. (as a footnote, he made 5 FG in that game, scoring all but 2 of our points). Or what about last year's game winning field goal against the lowly raiders in game 2 as time was running out? So yeah, you can point to a couple examples where maybe he should have made a kick and he didn't but overall, i'd say the jury is still out on whether Lindell is a "clutch" kicker or not. Thoughts? clutch doesn't exist. look at his resume, he's been above average since getting here. i hated him at first, and didnt like him at seattle, but he has really improved in the 40-50 range, as opposed to earlier in his career and i think credit goes to april for that. The guy is a top 15 kicker, and thats good enough for me. his major weakness is not enough boot to kick it out of the endzone , but we could do worse. sure the Browns kick was a killer as was indy one but thats going to happen no matter what. just sucks they were close games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I'd say Adam Vinatieri is the best kicker in the NFL based on the number of clutch kicks I've seen him make. I can go back to the OT kick in Buffalo in a blizzard in 2000 in one of Flutie's last games. Then there was the Super Bowl game winning kick. Then there was the tuck rule game game winner in the snow. On and on and on. Part of that may be due to the team he was on etc. But he delivers the goods. If he's not the best in the NFL today, who is? No prob on the argumentative thing. It's cool. We'll just have agree to disagree on the "interchangeable parts" thing with kickers. Maybe "there is very little variance statistically between the "good kickers" and "bad kickers"." But still, I couldn't disagree more. Stats don't tell the whole story. Fair enough. Like an earlier poster said, Bobby April trusts Rian Lindell, so I trust Rian Lindell. I'd definitely put Vinatieri in the top 5 (and he's had his great moments), but behind the likes of Rob Bironas, Shayne Graham, and (the top dog) Matt Stover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookiemonster Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I haven't felt it since the Gogolak days! GO BILLSSS!!!! I haven't felt it since the Norwood days..............well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UConn James Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I looked into your challenge for me to prove my point. 2 out of the last 5 years the winning SB kicker was Adam Vennetari. I think it's safe to say he's better than every other kicker in the league including the ones on average teams. Don't get me wrong. I don't think Lindell's horrible, but he did have a bad year last year. It wasn't just the Clowns kick. I just think we should be looking for someone better. I think the same for the QB, DE, DT, LB, and OL positions as well. As far as kickers from southern teams coming into the Ralph. I'll never forget watching Nick Folk of the Drugboyz kicking 2 straight 60+ yard FGs in the Ralph for the win in 2007. I also remember the kicker for the Clowns making several very long kicks including one to go ahead with 2:00 to go in the same windy stadium as Lindell. Didn't bother him too much. And even for Vinatieri, even after Indy paid him a boatload, was it this year or last that he had a string of games where he looked just terrible. Kicker is a much more difficult position for an average joe to understand what went wrong on a miss. And there's so much that goes into the kick. Probably the most import is the snapper. Not for nothing that RL's average jumped when Dorenbos was dropped and first-rate Mike Schneck was brought in, and that there were problems when the FO let the green Dan Neil take over, who flubbed two snaps in one game --- IIRC, it was that same Cleveland game everybody is harping on. Moorman is one of the best holders in the game, and he and Lindell work together very well. Fair enough reddog but what would you have had the Bills do this offseason to improve over Lindell? Bring in some contenders or would be contenders. Scour the free agent wire. Maybe a guy who was out of football last year and hungry to get back in. Maybe an Arena guy. Then announce that you're opening it and have kicking competition in training camp. If Lindell's the guy, make him earn it. It would be good for him and the Bills. If one of the other guys is better, keep him. Notice how that's the usual response. 'Just sign someone else.' I want a name. And the problem with signing inexperienced kickers is that you don't know what you're going to get. If you make a move based on one preseason, be ready for it to backfire once the big boys play full-time and the pressure cooker increases. Every year, they bring a guy or two into camp. Mostly it's to not wear out the starting kicker's leg. Partly, it's to give an audition in the case of finding a phenom or a safety valve in case of an injury during the season. The fact that league-wide there is rarely an 'open competition' for kicker during camps might tell you something. But for the 'Off with his head!' crowd, it won't tell them much. clutch doesn't exist. look at his resume, he's been above average since getting here. i hated him at first, and didnt like him at seattle, but he has really improved in the 40-50 range, as opposed to earlier in his career and i think credit goes to april for that. The guy is a top 15 kicker, and thats good enough for me. his major weakness is not enough boot to kick it out of the endzone , but we could do worse. sure the Browns kick was a killer as was indy one but thats going to happen no matter what. just sucks they were close games. Bobby April has gone on record that 'booting it out of the endzone' is not what he expects or wants. One of his biggest praises of Lindell is the exacting placement of the ball on KOs based on the coverage assignment. And let's not forget Lindell on off-sides kicks --- remember that game where he kicked and recovered the ball? RL may not have fooled that actor on the "Lie to Me" commercials, but he sure sold the Seahags on it in Week 1 last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLynchTrain Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Ever since that Steelers game, he's scared me every time he's lined up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Well, certainly the kick he missed against the 17-16 loss to the Colts in '06, or the miss with a minute to go in last season's 29-27 Monday nite loss to Cleveland would count as 'clutch', IMO. But here's something I didn't know 'til now - Lindell has never (and I hate saying this, for obvious reasons) missed a PAT - he's 282/282 and holds the NFL record for consecutive PATs. I tend to agree that Lindell's career stats are very close to or on a par with any of the elite placekickers - I think the big dropoff in FG % from 92% in '06 to 78% in '08 is what causes some of the angst your seeing here. Couldn't you have waited until I buried that Weenie-Whami at the grave of Wellington BEFORE putting the hex on Lindell? Until the Curse of Gogolak is removed there can be no more tempting the Gods, ok? If Lindell misses the game-winning extra point against the Pats we will know why. Perhaps a Weenie-Whami by itself won't suffice now. Any ideas what else I should bury at Mara's tombstone so that the football Gods are sufficiently appeased? GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Bring in some contenders or would be contenders. Scour the free agent wire. Maybe a guy who was out of football last year and hungry to get back in. Maybe an Arena guy. Then announce that you're opening it and have kicking competition in training camp. If Lindell's the guy, make him earn it. It would be good for him and the Bills. If one of the other guys is better, keep him. But, but.. the last time we tried that, we cut a drafted rookie. Some guy named Gary Anderson.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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