Can McKelvin Be a Shut Down CB this Season ?

[Billistic]

The reason he was better later in the year was because he wasn't starting anymore. McGee came back. McKelvin was a liability early in the year when he was forced into games. He was just OK later in the year when covering the other team's 3rd and 4th receivers. There was absolutely nothing you can point to in justifying him being a shutdown corner one year after he was a horrible starter. He had a good game against the Chiefs, and got torched the rest of the time.

 

McKelvin's play making ability seems to blind average fans into thinking he's good the rest of the time he's not making plays. Similar to Kyle Williams around here. People see the 2 plays out of 10 when he juts into the backfield, but don't notice the other 8 when he's getting ran over. McKelvin was a liability last year, and there's no evidence to prove otherwise. Like I said, he got better later in the year... when he was no longer starting. It's silly to assume he magically turned into a shutdown corner in one offseason.

 

I'm pretty much right with you on this one. That's why I hated the Bills losing Jabari, and why I cringed when they picked up Florence after Del Rio dumped him. McGee is no iron man (double ditto Youboty), and if the Bills ever have to send Leodis, Drayton and Reggie onto the field at the same time against Brady, Moss and Welker (and no pass rush), the record books could get a lot of new entries.

[billsfan89]

I'm pretty much right with you on this one. That's why I hated the Bills losing Jabari, and why I cringed when they picked up Florence after Del Rio dumped him. McGee is no iron man (double ditto Youboty), and if the Bills ever have to send Leodis, Drayton and Reggie onto the field at the same time against Brady, Moss and Welker (and no pass rush), the record books could get a lot of new entries.

 

There are a ton of corners that are terrible their 1st year and than they become shut down guys in their second year. A perfect example is a guy like Darrel Revis. He was torched by Trent Edwards in Edwards first start ever. In Revis's rookie year he was a total liability but since his second year he has become a shut down guy.

 

McKelvin is a guy who has tremendous physical ability and has shown flashes of in game ability. To me he seems like a guy who can turn the corner and develop into a solid corner this season. Towards the end of this season he will be a shut down guy or close to it.

 

As for McGee and Youboty being injury prone so was Greer he was out for a chunk of the season last year. In the end McKelvin isn't someone to be down on he follows the usual pattern of rookie corners who were drafted high and turned out to be excellent players.

[Billistic]

There are a ton of corners that are terrible their 1st year and than they become shut down guys in their second year. A perfect example is a guy like Darrel Revis. He was torched by Trent Edwards in Edwards first start ever. In Revis's rookie year he was a total liability but since his second year he has become a shut down guy.

 

McKelvin is a guy who has tremendous physical ability and has shown flashes of in game ability. To me he seems like a guy who can turn the corner and develop into a solid corner this season. Towards the end of this season he will be a shut down guy or close to it.

 

As for McGee and Youboty being injury prone so was Greer he was out for a chunk of the season last year. In the end McKelvin isn't someone to be down on he follows the usual pattern of rookie corners who were drafted high and turned out to be excellent players.

 

Darrelle's rookie season: (drafted 14th)

-16 starts (thrown to the wolves)

- 3 INTs

- 17 pass deflections

- 74 tackles

 

McKelvin: (drafted #11)

- 6 starts (despite injuries to both McGee and Greer; coddled)

- 2 INTs (both against the horrid Chiefs offense during a 54-31 blowout)

- 5 pass deflections

- 25 tackles

 

The thread isn't about "down on". It's about "lock down". I'm not down on McKelvin. I just pass on the Kool Aid. Also, where did I say Greer was an iron man? I'll follow Jabari, because he "turned the corner" in 2008. He started to "see" the plays develop, and anticipate his opportunities. Leodis is the opposite so far, not meant to imply that his brain won't kick in at some point.

[Rico]

When the Bills drafted McKelvin they expected him to be one of the best CBs playing eventually. He has the size, speed and over all talent to be a shut down CB. But is he ready yet to explode this season to be one? If he is, it will make the Bills secondary extremely strong. Shutting down a opponents best receiver gives the Bills a big advantage defensive wise.

But again is this the year he can develope to be the player he was drafted to be? A Shutdown CB.

Impact player? Yes

Difference maker? Yes

Game changer? Yes

He may be the only returning player on D that I think can consistently fit all 3 above categories (with Stroud, Kawika, McGee, & a healthy Youboty on a good day).

 

But shutdown CB? Not yet, I think he needs more experience, mistakes will still be made.

[Flbillsfan#1]

Darrelle's rookie season: (drafted 14th)

-16 starts (thrown to the wolves)

- 3 INTs

- 17 pass deflections

- 74 tackles

 

McKelvin: (drafted #11)

- 6 starts (despite injuries to both McGee and Greer; coddled)

- 2 INTs (both against the horrid Chiefs offense during a 54-31 blowout)

- 5 pass deflections

- 25 tackles

 

The thread isn't about "down on". It's about "lock down". I'm not down on McKelvin. I just pass on the Kool Aid. Also, where did I say Greer was an iron man? I'll follow Jabari, because he "turned the corner" in 2008. He started to "see" the plays develop, and anticipate his opportunities. Leodis is the opposite so far, not meant to imply that his brain won't kick in at some point.

Leodis is opposite so far? in 10 less starts as Revis he has only 1 less INT & has almost 1/3 of Revis's deflections playing on a team with NO Pass Rush. He was not coddled, Dick is just too STUPID to play his best players if they are Rookies.

[K-9]

Darrelle's rookie season: (drafted 14th)

-16 starts (thrown to the wolves)

- 3 INTs

- 17 pass deflections

- 74 tackles

 

McKelvin: (drafted #11)

- 6 starts (despite injuries to both McGee and Greer; coddled)

- 2 INTs (both against the horrid Chiefs offense during a 54-31 blowout)

- 5 pass deflections

- 25 tackles

 

The thread isn't about "down on". It's about "lock down". I'm not down on McKelvin. I just pass on the Kool Aid. Also, where did I say Greer was an iron man? I'll follow Jabari, because he "turned the corner" in 2008. He started to "see" the plays develop, and anticipate his opportunities. Leodis is the opposite so far, not meant to imply that his brain won't kick in at some point.

 

Please allow me to do some fun extrapolation. Here's what McKelvin looks like with the same 16 starts that Revis had in his rookie year.

 

- 16 starts

- 5 INTs

- 12.5 pass deflections

- 62.5 tackles

 

Compares favorably with Revis. But of course it's ludicrous to make these projections, isn't it? Just like it's ludicrous to point to INTs and pass breakups, especially, as good indicators of how effective a CB is playing. Why? Well, what makes those numbers possible in the first place is the sheer numbers of times they are thrown at. And that's an indication of what the opposing offenses think can be exploited. In other words, how good other teams think a CB really is.

 

Case in point: the great Robert James. If you read his stat lines you'd think he rarely got in the games. Until you realized that QBs seldom threw in his direction because he would COMPETELY take away the other teams' BEST receivers far more often than not.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Mr. WEO]

There are no "shut down corners", so, no.

[DazedandConfused]

Darrelle's rookie season: (drafted 14th)

-16 starts (thrown to the wolves)

- 3 INTs

- 17 pass deflections

- 74 tackles

 

McKelvin: (drafted #11)

- 6 starts (despite injuries to both McGee and Greer; coddled)

- 2 INTs (both against the horrid Chiefs offense during a 54-31 blowout)

- 5 pass deflections

- 25 tackles

 

The thread isn't about "down on". It's about "lock down". I'm not down on McKelvin. I just pass on the Kool Aid. Also, where did I say Greer was an iron man? I'll follow Jabari, because he "turned the corner" in 2008. He started to "see" the plays develop, and anticipate his opportunities. Leodis is the opposite so far, not meant to imply that his brain won't kick in at some point.

This just as much a testimony to how they were used and how OCs viewed the opportunity of playing against them as it is some kind of measure or even indication of the their quality as a athlete.

 

I do not know the Jets D scheme with Revis as a rookie, but if it was a normal scheme for the NFL he likely would have been challenged far more as a CB than McKelvin since as a Cover 2 (and more accurately a Tampa 2) CB McKelvin's primary role was not as a shutdown or downfield CB but as a short zone and run support CB.

 

Likewise, at the base of any Revis stat, a significant factor in a many of these stats like passes deflected would have been what he presented compared to the other CB. If the other CB is a bum my passes deflected or INTs may be down because opposing OCs are picking on the other side.

 

Overall, this simple statistical comparison is pretty worthless without some real world context.

[Flbillsfan#1]

There are no "shut down corners", so, no.

Not on the Pats* anyway.

[Mr. WEO]

Not on the Pats* anyway.

wow.

This is all you've got? Were you really "laughing out loud" after that post? How does a guy like you find work?

 

Maybe one or your kids can write your zingers for you.

[Flbillsfan#1]

wow.

This is all you've got? Were you really "laughing out loud" after that post? How does a guy like you find work?

 

Maybe one or your kids can write your zingers for you.

Far better than ANYTHING you have come up with since you started posting on this board Mr. Bills fan, or more correctly Mr. Pats* fan.

[Steely Dan]

The correct answer is no. McKelvin is one hell of a talent and will become a great NFL CB, but a shut down corner is dependent on a pass rush -- something the Bills do not have. Neon Deon is the only CB who could shut down a WR regardless of the QBs time to throw -- so unless McKelvin is the 2nd best CB in the history of football then the answer is no.

 

I say damn close to one. With McGee, McKelvin, Youboty, Corner and Florence it's gonna be a pick your poison defensive back field. JMO

 

 

I'm pretty much right with you on this one. That's why I hated the Bills losing Jabari, and why I cringed when they picked up Florence after Del Rio dumped him. McGee is no iron man (double ditto Youboty), and if the Bills ever have to send Leodis, Drayton and Reggie onto the field at the same time against Brady, Moss and Welker (and no pass rush), the record books could get a lot of new entries.

 

No way dude. With Aaron Schobel being back and the possibility of Maybin offering, hopefully, situational pass rushes I think the defense will be a lot better than last year. JMO

[Billistic]

Please allow me to do some fun extrapolation. Here's what McKelvin looks like with the same 16 starts that Revis had in his rookie year.

 

- 16 starts

- 5 INTs

- 12.5 pass deflections

- 62.5 tackles

 

Compares favorably with Revis. But of course it's ludicrous to make these projections, isn't it? Just like it's ludicrous to point to INTs and pass breakups, especially, as good indicators of how effective a CB is playing. Why? Well, what makes those numbers possible in the first place is the sheer numbers of times they are thrown at. And that's an indication of what the opposing offenses think can be exploited. In other words, how good other teams think a CB really is.

 

Case in point: the great Robert James. If you read his stat lines you'd think he rarely got in the games. Until you realized that QBs seldom threw in his direction because he would COMPETELY take away the other teams' BEST receivers far more often than not.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Nice work with proportioning! The question remains, why did DICK coddle his #11 superman, even though the starting CBs were down? Can one draw any inferences from DICK's decision? Who did DICK play instead of Leodis? Why?

 

Are you sure that you want to make the case that opposing QBs feared throwing against Leodis? Think about that. does anyone in the League fear throwing against any Bills defensive backs. I think not.

 

And about "William James", guys like camp Bailey and Asante Samuel ALWAYS put up big numbers.

[K-9]

Nice work with proportioning! The question remains, why did DICK coddle his #11 superman, even though the starting CBs were down? Can one draw any inferences from DICK's decision? Who did DICK play instead of Leodis? Why?

 

Are you sure that you want to make the case that opposing QBs feared throwing against Leodis? Think about that. does anyone in the League fear throwing against any Bills defensive backs. I think not.

 

And about "William James", guys like camp Bailey and Asante Samuel ALWAYS put up big numbers.

 

You are all over the place with this reply. But I'll try to sort through your ramble.

 

1.) Dick, like Levy, is too conservative when it comes to throwing certain rookies to the wolves. The only inference I can draw from Jauron's decision is he felt McKelvin simply wasn't ready. Jauron made the same miscalculation when it came to Greer as well. It was a matter of trust. All that can be said on the matter is that Jauron placed more trust in a 50% McGee than a 100% McKelvin. He wasn't coddled so much as not counted on to get the job done. I assume that's because what the coaches saw every day in practice, in games, and in the coaches video of BOTH suggested he wasn't ready.

 

2.) I am NOT, in any way, shape, or form making the argument that opposing QBs feared throwing against Leodis. I was simply having fun doing some extrapolation to show how ludicrous some CB stats can be (i.e. INTs and breakups) when judging them. If I'm an OC, I'm going after ANY rookie or otherwise inexperienced CB until he shows why I shouldn't.

 

3.) Who is "William" James? My point about "Robert" James stands.

 

4.) Guys like Bailey and Samuel SHOULD put up big numbers. They are thrown at A LOT and both have the great athletic ability to make plays on the ball when the opportunity arises.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

There are no "shut down corners", so, no.

 

Yeah, what is a "shut down corner"? I called Greer a shut-down corner in a few posts this off-season, and was told that I was way off the mark.

[DDD]

McKelvin I predict is the next Derrick Burroughs. First round pick, great size, but always a half step behind in coverage. He's a long strider with a high center of gravity and will have difficulty covering shifty receivers. Just my opinion.

[Billistic]

You are all over the place with this reply. But I'll try to sort through your ramble.

 

1.) Dick, like Levy, is too conservative when it comes to throwing certain rookies to the wolves. The only inference I can draw from Jauron's decision is he felt McKelvin simply wasn't ready. Jauron made the same miscalculation when it came to Greer as well. It was a matter of trust. All that can be said on the matter is that Jauron placed more trust in a 50% McGee than a 100% McKelvin. He wasn't coddled so much as not counted on to get the job done. I assume that's because what the coaches saw every day in practice, in games, and in the coaches video of BOTH suggested he wasn't ready.

 

2.) I am NOT, in any way, shape, or form making the argument that opposing QBs feared throwing against Leodis. I was simply having fun doing some extrapolation to show how ludicrous some CB stats can be (i.e. INTs and breakups) when judging them. If I'm an OC, I'm going after ANY rookie or otherwise inexperienced CB until he shows why I shouldn't.

 

3.) Who is "William" James? My point about "Robert" James stands.

 

4.) Guys like Bailey and Samuel SHOULD put up big numbers. They are thrown at A LOT and both have the great athletic ability to make plays on the ball when the opportunity arises.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I'll try to sort through your refuse (numbering based upon your 1479139 post):

 

1. Dick knew from preseason that McKelvin didn't have game-time football sense. In second echelon college games, Leodis could prevail using his athleticism against ne'er-do-wells. Let's hope Leodis isn't as hapless as Jimmy Hardly.

 

2. ALL stats can be made to appear ludicrous, except stats based upon tens of millions of samples, like insurance company actuarial tables or the Las Vegas gambling casinos.

 

3. Care to explain how a "Robert" James reference weighs in on any point?

 

4. "Guys like Bailey and Samuel SHOULD put up big numbers. They are thrown at A LOT and both have the great athletic ability to make plays on the ball when the opportunity arises. "

 

Try to get help prying your head out of your orifice on this one, Bucko.

[BuffaloBlood]

Until Leodis becomes that shut down guy Mr. Moss will own us and we will have no chance of takin out the Pats. If it wasnt for Moss I think that we stand a chance of upsetting the Pats once this year. Moss eats us for lunch though. He dominated Nate when he was in Minnesota and kills us now regardless of who we put on him. So unless Leodis can do what Nate, Greer, and McGee couldnt which is even contain the guy the losing streak to NE will continue.

[The Dean]

I think many are getting a little carried away with the "shutdown corner" stuff. I don't think many NFL team now ask their CBs to cover WRs totally one-on-one, except in some specific situations. Even the best CBs get deep (or inside/outside) help in today's game. The game has changed a lot since Robert James played. (And yes, James was a shutdown corner, no doubt about it.)

 

Dazed has offered an empirical definition that is useful, but flawed, I think. A CB may good enough, compared to the others on the team, so that he doesn't get challenged that often. It might say as much about the other CB.s deficits as it does about one CB's strength. Of course in that situation, it is still likely the one CB is pretty good, or the opposition would simply attack them all.

 

What I think of, today, when I think of a shutdown, or top level CB, is one who can effectively cover the opponent's top WR, can play man defense and go solo ("on an island") when called for (and this usually involves planned pressure to the QB). A top corner will be a top corner on any defense, and the #1 CB on most any team (with the exception of the teams that have another top corner).

 

Maybe the question should be, "Can McKelvin be a quality starting CB, this year, and be a top-level NFL CB soon?" If that's the question, my answer is "I think he can." Whether or not he will, is to be determined, of course.

 

While McKelvin has the tools to be a better CB than McGee, he will likely get challenged more often, this year and will get burned on occasion. Newsflash: Every CB gets burned from time to time. Every single motherfuc#ing one of them.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

There are no "shut down corners", so, no.

Actually you're wrong on this WEO.

 

Nnamdi Asomugha is a total shut down corner and the best corner in the league by far.

 

"In 2007 opposing quarterbacks tested him only 31 times with a mere 10 completions the entire season. One NFL scout told Pro Football Weekly that Asomugha was thrown at "less than any defender in the last ten years" in 2007. He finished the 2007 season with 34 tackles, 1 interception and 7 breakups and was named a Pro Bowl alternate.

 

In 2008 Asomugha was tested by quarterbacks only 27 times with 8 completions allowed the entire season. He finished with 1 interception, 1 forced fumble, and 9 pass deflections."

 

So in 32 games, he was thrown at 58 times and only allowed 18 completions.

 

In the game against the Bills, I believe he allowed one reception to Lee Evans and immediately forced Evans to fumble the ball, something Evans rarely does.

 

IMO Darrelle Revis is the next great cornerback.