Kelly the Dog Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 And the world is going to be a much different place in 10 to 20 years is what you said. I agree. And the change is that people are not going to be able to live beyond their means anymore. Then need to save as much money as they can and what this will create is a huge reduction in the stress being put on SS. But here's the thing. The government needs to set the example. But they are and have been spending beyond their means worse than the American people. What good is it if Americans finally get it and start saving but the whole country goes blewie because the government didn't get it. I understand the concern. My opinion is that we're going to be in a lot of debt for several if not many years because of the hole we collectively dug. But because of the changes being made on energy, education, health care, etc, a new economy is going to emerge that is going to be vibrant, actually makes things again, and slowly brings down the debt to not only workable numbers but hopefully back to surpluses. That's 5-10 years away. Maybe it takes 15 years or more. We have been putting energy and education and health care and other things off for far too long and if we don't spend, it's just going to kick it down the road to the next administration 16 years from now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I understand the concern. My opinion is that we're going to be in a lot of debt for several if not many years because of the hole we collectively dug. But because of the changes being made on energy, education, health care, etc, a new economy is going to emerge that is going to be vibrant, actually makes things again, and slowly brings down the debt to not only workable numbers but hopefully back to surpluses. That's 5-10 years away. We have been putting energy and education and health care and other things off for far too long and if we don't spend, it's just going to kick it down the road to the next administration 16 years from now. And you and I have been down this road before. Why is it the government's job to be in charge of all of this stuff. That's a path I'd rather they didn't go down. They need to provide the carrot to get private enterprise to provide the stimulus, that's what made this country great. Not having the government run everything. Unless of course you want this country to look like China which Darin put so well earlier this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 And you and I have been down this road before. Why is it the government's job to be in charge of all of this stuff. That's a path I'd rather they didn't go down. They need to provide the carrot to get private enterprise to provide the stimulus, that's what made this country great. Not having the government run everything. Unless of course you want this country to look like China which Darin put so well earlier this week. Where we differ is that I don't think the government wants to run everything. They have no intention of owning banks and car companies after this mess blows over. Health Care is not going to be run by the government. Private businesses ARE what's going to make the difference, not the government. I don't think the government is great at running most things either but they're not going to and don't want to. They are, however, the only ones that can put the private sector in position to take over again. It's going to be messy and it's not going to be without missteps and stupid political decisions, but ultimately I think it's going to work and there are a lot of smart economists working with the administration like Summers and Volker and Buffett and even Geithner who think so, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Health Care is not going to be run by the government. Private businesses ARE what's going to make the difference, not the government. I don't think the government is great at running most things either but they're not going to and don't want to. They are, however, the only ones that can put the private sector in position to take over again. It's going to be messy and it's not going to be without missteps and stupid political decisions, but ultimately I think it's going to work and there are a lot of smart economists working with the administration like Summers and Volker and Buffett and even Geithner who think so, too. First of all, you have no idea whether the health care plan is going to be run by the government because even the government doesn't know what it's going to do. It has one objective based on one directive: get it done before you split in August because doing anything is better than nothing. I know that sounds like a recipe for success to you, but for those of us who manage projects and schedules for a living, it's precisely the recipe you avoid if you even remotely want success. At the very least, you offer up the basic option to the president: "Good. Quick. Cheap. Pick two." They can't even do that in this scenario. In fact, the best they can hope for based on the way they're behaving is "Quick." Second of all, while I'm sure it plays well with you, Keith, Tingles and Stretch, most sane people tune out when they hear someone start a sentence with something that even remotely sounds like "Only the government can fix... ." I have to admit, though; you make being a liberal seem like a lot of fun: "We're going to have missteps, we're going to make stupid decisions, and it's going to be messy, BUT by golly, we think it might work." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I have to admit, though; you make being a liberal seem like a lot of fun: "We're going to have missteps, we're going to make stupid decisions, and it's going to be messy, BUT by golly, we think it might work we're better than Bush." Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Where we differ is that I don't think the government wants to run everything. They have no intention of owning banks and car companies after this mess blows over. Health Care is not going to be run by the government. Private businesses ARE what's going to make the difference, not the government. I don't think the government is great at running most things either but they're not going to and don't want to. They are, however, the only ones that can put the private sector in position to take over again. It's going to be messy and it's not going to be without missteps and stupid political decisions, but ultimately I think it's going to work and there are a lot of smart economists working with the administration like Summers and Volker and Buffett and even Geithner who think so, too. If the Democrat run government didn't want the government to run all this stuff but wanted private enterprise to do so they wouldn't be Democrats now would they? And I agree that the government can be part of the plan to put the private sector in control. But you do it by providing long term incentives. This stimulus is a short term fix and that was the point in my thread about China being the leading indicator. When all this money is spent, then what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Fixed. And that, ladies is gentlemen, is why I think we need to get Duke Preston signed to a long-term deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I understand the concern. My opinion is that we're going to be in a lot of debt for several if not many years because of the hole we collectively dug. But because of the changes being made on energy, education, health care, etc, a new economy is going to emerge that is going to be vibrant, actually makes things again, and slowly brings down the debt to not only workable numbers but hopefully back to surpluses. That's 5-10 years away. Maybe it takes 15 years or more. We have been putting energy and education and health care and other things off for far too long and if we don't spend, it's just going to kick it down the road to the next administration 16 years from now. Debt financing only makes sense, in almost any circumstance, if you use the debt to purchase something that will help generate a higher rate of return than the interest service cost on the debt. I'm not seeing anything here like the TVA, interstate system etc. that will assist in productivity. All I see are costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Debt financing only makes sense, in almost any circumstance, if you use the debt to purchase something that will help generate a higher rate of return than the interest service cost on the debt. I'm not seeing anything here like the TVA, interstate system etc. that will assist in productivity. All I see are costs. And that's what happens when you have life long politicians running things that have never run anything for profit in their lives. Hell I had more experience at the age of 12 delivering newspapers than most of these morons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 And that's what happens when you have life long politicians running things that have never run anything for profit in their lives. Hell I had more experience at the age of 12 delivering newspapers than most of these morons. Don't have to convince me of the virtue of term limits. I'm all for them. Let these jokers go out and find real jobs...if anyone will hire them. I'd really like to see what Maxine Waters ended up doing if she had to look for a real job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Don't have to convince me of the virtue of term limits. I'm all for them. Let these jokers go out and find real jobs...if anyone will hire them. I'd really like to see what Maxine Waters ended up doing if she had to look for a real job. And that's what the founding fathers envisioned. Go to Washington, serve your country for a few years and then go back to tending your farm, running your business or your law firm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Don't have to convince me of the virtue of term limits. I'm all for them. Let these jokers go out and find real jobs...if anyone will hire them. I'd really like to see what Maxine Waters ended up doing if she had to look for a real job. They'd never need real jobs. Speaking circuit, emeritus professorships, DC think-tanks and lobbyists. The definition of "elected official" is basically "never having to be responsible for anything". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 They'd never need real jobs. Speaking circuit, emeritus professorships, DC think-tanks and lobbyists. The definition of "elected official" is basically "never having to be responsible for anything". And don't forget it entitles them to their super special secret health insurance that they'll keep after they design something crappy for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Actually, everyone thinks that if we don't change health care eventually the nation is going to be bankrupt. The way to do it is what is debatable. And there is zero question that if we don't spend money on it, we're going to go bankrupt. When we do it, the way to pay for it, who pays for it and when they pay for it, and if it eventually costs more or costs less, are the only things in question. There is no quote in that article from Biden that isn't absolutely true. Whoever wrote the article characterized that Biden said if we don't pass this particular bill we are going bankrupt. IF he said that, it would be a stupid thing to say. I don't know what else he said there. But the quote they used didnt say that at all. The quote from Biden was inarguably true. Biden actually did say that. What he said was “Now, people when I say that look at me and say, ‘What are you talking about, Joe? You’re telling me we have to go spend money to keep from going bankrupt?’” Biden said. “The answer is yes, that's what I’m telling you.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Biden actually did say that. What he said was "Now, people when I say that look at me and say, 'What are you talking about, Joe? You're telling me we have to go spend money to keep from going bankrupt?'" Biden said. "The answer is yes, that's what I'm telling you." I just listened to it. He was talking about the status quo and mentioned it specifically. The need for health care reform. That we can't do nothing or we will go bankrupt. And we have to spend money on it to fix it. You don't agree with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I just listened to it. He was talking about the status quo and mentioned it specifically. The need for health care reform. That we can't do nothing or we will go bankrupt. And we have to spend money on it to fix it. You don't agree with that? No, what he said was unless the Democrat-supported health care plan becomes law the nation will go bankrupt and that the only way to avoid that fate is for the government to spend more money. What is the plan? The only plan I know of is the plan that is being proposed today, which is being ripped apart from the CBO, who has more members that lean to the left. That is what I don't agree with, not what you said, but what he said. There is a difference. You are saying health care reform, something needs to be done, which I don't believe any one is denying, but what he is saying is that "unless the democrat supported health care plan becomes law the nation will go bankrupt and that the only way to avoid that fate is for the government to spend more money" Like I said, the only plan I know of is the one that is being proposed by the house, and that plan is losing support, quickly. If they have a better plan, then they better come out with it. What he said, and what you just said, are two different things. Do you see the difference Dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 No, what he said was unless the Democrat-supported health care plan becomes law the nation will go bankrupt and that the only way to avoid that fate is for the government to spend more money. What is the plan? The only plan I know of is the plan that is being proposed today, which is being ripped apart from the CBO, who has more members that lean to the left. That is what I don't agree with, not what you said, but what he said. There is a difference. You are saying health care reform, something needs to be done, which I don't believe any one is denying, but what he is saying is that "unless the democrat supported health care plan becomes law the nation will go bankrupt and that the only way to avoid that fate is for the government to spend more money" Like I said, the only plan I know of is the one that is being proposed by the house, and that plan is losing support, quickly. If they have a better plan, then they better come out with it. What he said, and what you just said, are two different things. Do you see the difference Dog? Of course. I SAID IT IN THE POST YOU REFERENCED. Where does Biden say "unless the Democratic supported health care plan becomes law the nation will go bankrupt"? Show me the quote. As I said, if he did say that in those words it would be stupid. What is NOT stupid is the actual quote you referenced, and the longer version of what he said that I just listened to. Which is here: http://cybercastnewsservice.org/JoeBidenHe...SNEWS-71609.mp3 He says you know, I know, and the President knows, that the status quo is unacceptable and unsustainable. That status quo is "Health Care". We have to do something about Health Care and if we don't we go bankrupt. That isn't stupid, it's obvious and true and everyone agrees so. Show me where he says we have to do this plan now or we go bankrupt and I'll tell you he is stupid. He may have said it elsewhere, I don't know. And it would be stupid to say so. We don't have to do it right now, and we don't have to do this plan or we go bankrupt. The CBO guy backtracked a little today, too. And it wasnt even an analysis, he didnt even read the plan. What he said was "from what is being reported". And there is, of course, another plan which has been reported everywhere, the Senate plan which is in the exact same stage as the House plan (meaning it hasn't been voted on it just passed through committee). And the CBO likes that plan and it costs half as much ($600 bil as of now, it may not stay that way). The CBO also likes a strong public plan and its early estimates say it will save about 150 billion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
\GoBillsInDallas/ Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 If you're a small printing company, and you're losing money, and your printer breaks, your accountant may say "we can't afford a new printer right now". But if you don't spend money to either fix it or buy a new one, you're going to go bankrupt. B*llsh*t. If your printer breaks, you take money from the company's rainy day fund to fix it. And if the company doesn't have a rainy day fund, maybe it shouldn't be in business at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 B*llsh*t. If your printer breaks, you take money from the company's rainy day fund to fix it. And if the company doesn't have a rainy day fund, maybe it shouldn't be in business at all. While I appreciate the thinking, for a lot of small businesses, a rainy day fund is actually a credit line they tap into based on projected cash flow. Sometimes they use it to cover payroll if their month is tight, or they may use it to buy new equipment at a relatively low interest rate in anticipation of near-term payables coming in to help make the payments. This assumes your credit line is still available to you. What would NOT make sense is looking at your projected cash flow, realizing you're ass-deep in red ink with no prospects of new business, and still borrowing money to buy/fix a new printer for work that isn't in the queue. In other words, if your accountant says you have no money, but you may go bankrupt if you don't get a new printer, it may also mean the business owner is already headed toward bankruptcy if the cash flow isn't there from booked business. It would be irresponsible and just plain stupid to borrow against your line to fix a printer in hopes that you may get that big job you just bid against three other printing companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBinVA Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 I just listened to it. He was talking about the status quo and mentioned it specifically. The need for health care reform. That we can't do nothing or we will go bankrupt. And we have to spend money on it to fix it. You don't agree with that? With all this "fixing" of our health care system, why isn't anyone talking about tort reform? Everyone knows the cost of health care is directly proportion to the medical insurance doctors have to pay for liability insurance. I know the lawyers give huge amounts of money to the dems and they are protecting them, but why isn't the GOP hammering this issue? If we had a smart tort reform bill that limits lawsuits’ and rewards and penalizes fraudulent cases being brought against doctors, the system would save billions not only in medical expenses but in court time also. We lack such common sense these days I just can't beleive it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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