Pass the new O-line Kool Aid

[Mickey]

Well Dockery was slightly below average and very over paid. The combo of Fowler and Preston at center was ineffective. Butler the right guard is more suited to play right tackle. Their Pro Bowl LT wanted to be paid big after a sub par season. So the line played OK but had serious issues like ineffective play at LG and C and the play at the right side wasn't great.

 

So what did they decide to do once they traded Peters they decided to build the O-line as a unit with 4 young guys that could play with each other for a long time and form a unit. Hangardner was signed to be the center before Peters left. They moved Butler to RT. Than they drafted two Guards One in the first round and another in the second to fill out the rest of the line. Than they put the RT over to LT as a stop gap at LT.

 

Simply put they had to start somewhere and trying to build a line as a unit with 4 young guys in place that can play with each other for a long time is a good philosophy. Will it work this year unlikely as early on they will struggle but it will improve over the course of the season and next year and the year after they will form a solid unit much like the O-Line of the Giants.

This line does not, to me, look like the result of some brilliant long term plan. It smells to me more like, "what the hell do we do now?" in the wake of disasters like losing Peters and the Dockery mistake. What do we do? Oh, oh, oh, I know, lets move this guy over here, and that guy over there, then draft this guy and that guy. Sure it might work but it will be a brilliant accident if it does.

[Whites Bay]

This line does not, to me, look like the result of some brilliant long term plan. It smells to me more like, "what the hell do we do now?" in the wake of disasters like losing Peters and the Dockery mistake. What do we do? Oh, oh, oh, I know, lets move this guy over here, and that guy over there, then draft this guy and that guy. Sure it might work but it will be a brilliant accident if it does.

 

Question, Mickey, and I have no straw-man argument here. Is it better to build the line from the Inside-Out, or from the Outside-In? I realize this discussion could go a few directions, and believe me, I have no answers. But my question seems to go to the heart of your point. The Bills seem to have watched the way the pocket collapsed over-and-over-and-over since 2007 and had friggin' had enough of it, so they drafted two arguably Blue-Chip guards, and signed a very intelligent center whom most of the posters on this board seem to believe will be an upgrade over Fowler. They've chosen the "Inside-Out" route.

 

Naively speaking, the last time the Bills tried to rebuild from the Outside-In in a BIG way (big pick in the draft - clearly a "statement" move) was Mike Williams. Maybe people in the front office are still schit-scared from that disaster. Or maybe they think that what they have (Walker at LT) is serviceable enough to get them through the season, keep their jobs, and pluck one of the top LTs in next year's draft.

 

Provide your evidence. Inside-Out, or Outside-In. Or just B word.

[spartacus]

Question, Mickey, and I have no straw-man argument here. Is it better to build the line from the Inside-Out, or from the Outside-In? I realize this discussion could go a few directions, and believe me, I have no answers. But my question seems to go to the heart of your point. The Bills seem to have watched the way the pocket collapsed over-and-over-and-over since 2007 and had friggin' had enough of it, so they drafted two arguably Blue-Chip guards, and signed a very intelligent center whom most of the posters on this board seem to believe will be an upgrade over Fowler. They've chosen the "Inside-Out" route.

 

Naively speaking, the last time the Bills tried to rebuild from the Outside-In in a BIG way (big pick in the draft - clearly a "statement" move) was Mike Williams. Maybe people in the front office are still schit-scared from that disaster. Or maybe they think that what they have (Walker at LT) is serviceable enough to get them through the season, keep their jobs, and pluck one of the top LTs in next year's draft.

 

Provide your evidence. Inside-Out, or Outside-In. Or just B word.

 

sure they had to build the inside after a decade of trying low budget cast offs and scrubs

 

However, the truly galling part is that they already had the "outside" in place. they had the hardest to find piece of the puzzle at LT who was only 26 and could have grown with the rookies and they pissed it away starting in 2008 trying to save a few bucks.

 

Now, they will first waste the season with Walker at LT and then as you state will spend another high pick and big money on an unproven rookie.

 

 

The smartest move they should make is to replace every scout & talent evaluator who has contributed to the OL mess over the last decade.

[Whites Bay]

sure they had to build the inside after a decade of trying low budget cast offs and scrubs

 

However, the truly galling part is that they already had the "outside" in place. they had the hardest to find piece of the puzzle at LT who was only 26 and could have grown with the rookies and they pissed it away starting in 2008 trying to save a few bucks.

 

Now, they will first waste the season with Walker at LT and then as you state will spend another high pick and big money on an unproven rookie.

 

 

The smartest move they should make is to replace every scout & talent evaluator who has contributed to the OL mess over the last decade.

 

I agree with you regarding the castoffs and scrubs. I could Google it, but Tutan Reyes and Bennie Anderson come to mind. What a decade from hell.

 

What did OBD do? They fired Donohoe, the architect of disaster. Mort may never forgive OBD, but it had to happen.

 

As for the LT, the Peters saga is going to be one of the Bills' "Fish that got away" conundrums that will last for another couple of decades. Should OBD have kept a blue-chip LT, one of the most difficult positions to fill? Or should Peters have manned-up and started to play for the big contract KNOWING that OBD had a history of tearing up EXISTING contracts to award TEAM players? The knife cuts both ways, Spartacus. Either way, Peters is not here anymore, and howling about it is about as inane as the incessant "Should have drafted Ngata instead of Whitner" (I wanted Ngata. We got Whitner. The difference between me and the rest of the Ngata camp is that I've learned to let it go, because I can't do a fuggin' thing about it).

 

What did OBD do? They moved Walker from RT to LT. I'm not thrilled about it, but Walker DID perform admirably against Seattle last year. I don't think I started exhaling until the middle of the second quarter, but Edwards looked like he had plenty of time. Am I ready to annoint Walker to Canton? Hell no. I can't wait until OBD gets his replacement. But to simply throw one's hands up and scream "We're doooooommmmeeeddd".....just not in my personality. Maybe yours, I guess.

 

As for the amount of $$ they would have to spend on a new LT, my GUESS - and it's only a guess, is that the Bills are going to go 8-8. 9-7 at BEST. At 8-8. they'll be picking somewhere around 15 or 16, meaning they're going to get the 2nd- or 3rd-best LT still on the board. Will that person be as good as Peters in the year that he departerd? That's debatable. Peters was an underperforming oaf last year, and he knew it. Will the new person be as good as Peters was WHEN THE BILLS SIGNED HIM AS A FUGGIN' UDFA TE FROM ARKANSAS??????

 

My GUESS, and it's only a guess, is that the Bills will be getting a better LT with that #16 pick than either Peters was for his first 2 years, or than Walker is today. The odds are exceedingly high that they are able to sign this person for a LOT LOT less than they would have had to spend to sign Peters.

 

My GUESS, and it's only a guess, is that they had a healthy, chunky offer on the table for Peters, but he didn't take it.

 

My GUESS, and it's only a guess, is that they'll be able to sign their 16th overall LT to considerably less than that which they would have paid Peters. But I'm just playing the odds here. Easy for you and me to B word about player signings, but we don't write the checks.

 

As for replacing every scout and talent evaluator on the payroll, that might be a BIT drastic.

 

What did OBD do? Didn't they just bring in Buddy Nix? I think Buddy Nix was the guy who found Travis Henry. I don't care about Travis Henry's personal issues. He was a damn good ball player. Glad I don't have his life at the moment. The point is that the FO, believe it or not, IS making changes. I don't want to sound like an employee of the FO - trust me, they'd fire my sorry ass within a week of showing up there - but.......God, Spartacus, do you ever have a good day?

 

"Headhunter" - Herbie Hancock

[BillsVet]

However, the truly galling part is that they already had the "outside" in place. they had the hardest to find piece of the puzzle at LT who was only 26 and could have grown with the rookies and they pissed it away starting in 2008 trying to save a few bucks.

 

Now, they will first waste the season with Walker at LT and then as you state will spend another high pick and big money on an unproven rookie.

 

 

The smartest move they should make is to replace every scout & talent evaluator who has contributed to the OL mess over the last decade.

 

There are plenty of fans who don't truly appreciate what a good LT can do, as in being left alone against an opponents' best rusher. There are three AFCE teams who will rush faster OLB's at Walker and Butler. Both of the probable starting OT's have marginal foot speed and will struggle to keep those guys from dipping beneath their reach. I have a suspicion that both Walker and Butler will require more TE help than most realize, which will mean fewer options to throw at for Edwards.

 

Peters was underwhelming last year, but he didn't require another TE, which forces the team to keep one guy in on pass plays. Walker will require it and certainly won't be better than Peters.

 

I'm also all for blowing up the front office, many of whom were hired during the TD years. It's amazing how adamant the Bills are that their people up top should remain the same, but the players must change. There is no accountability in this organization, and it's going to blow up in their face in 2009.

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

Sorry, but I don't buy into the whole "receivers don't get open" stuff. With the speed of today's secondaries it's rare that receivers are open. The QBs today who have successes are the one's who aren't afraid to throw it to guys that are covered. The Cardinals do this, Giants do this, Steelers, Patriots, and on and on.

 

For whatever reason the Bills refuse to do this in favor of the "safe" check down passes. Either Edwards doesn't trust himself enough to do this, or the coaches have him too petrified of throwing interceptions. Trent is going to have to put on his big boy pants in '09 and throw the ball to guys that aren't "wide open" down the field and trust that with a quick release, the accuracy of his arm and the aggressiveness of his receivers that the Bills will hit the jackpot of points this season.

 

As for the O-line, the only reason they were able to even have pedestrian numbers was because of Lynch's heart. Last year's line couldn't get a push against high schoolers.

 

Get your head out of that pile of stupid. I remember watching Tom Brady rack up record setting numbers by "checking down" to Wes Welker for uber-yardage every game.....because Randy Moss was covered. As for the O-line, it was far superior last year. To suggest otherwise is still as stupid as it was when we traded Jason Peters. Last I checked, receivers in fact DO get open in games. I don't know what the !@#$ league you watch but I see secondaries get torched all the time. The QBs who have success are the ones who have the two necessary elements to QB success - time to throw and weapons to throw to. Any QB in the NFL will pick you apart if you give him time and weapons. Everything favors the offensive players on a passing play - they know the routes, the timing, the cadance, etc. Wide receivers are absolutely supposed to get open. To suggest otherwise just indicates you are a brainless twat.

 

If you think Tom Brady has made a career by making bad decisions to throw into tight coverage rather than by exploiting the weaknesses the defense gives him, or Big Ben, Eli Manning, or any other quarterback in the league, then again you are wrong and exceedingly stupid. I mean now that we have TO to open things up we should be able to take more shots at the defense, but to suggest that we should have forced the ball to a double covered Lee Evans or to a blanketed Josh Reed, neither of whom possess great jump ball abilities, is simply absurd.

 

Did you say you have actually watched an NFL football game before? Because I'm sensing that your knowledge of the game extends only as far as the cord of your Playstation controller.

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

Belichick is an acknowledge master in "making the pieces fit together". He takes cast offs like Junior Seau and Randy Moss, and melds them into contenders.

 

Um Junior Seau was not a major contributor to anything the Pats did - they could have plugged anyone in there and been nearly as effective. Randy Moss was the best WR in the NFL when the Pats acquired him, regardless of what ESPN writers think of his demeanor. Let's blow Bill Belichick just a little less please. He's a great coach but it doesn't take a genius to realize that Randy Moss will make your team better.

[Billistic]

I agree with you regarding the castoffs and scrubs. I could Google it, but Tutan Reyes and Bennie Anderson come to mind. What a decade from hell.

 

What did OBD do? They fired Donohoe, the architect of disaster.

 

 

OBD, OBD, OBD, OBD = Ralph Wilson, THE Architect of Disaster

[Billistic]

Um Junior Seau was not a major contributor to anything the Pats did - they could have plugged anyone in there and been nearly as effective. Randy Moss was the best WR in the NFL when the Pats acquired him, regardless of what ESPN writers think of his demeanor. Let's blow Bill Belichick just a little less please. He's a great coach but it doesn't take a genius to realize that Randy Moss will make your team better.

 

Lets YOU blow a little less hot air, Bucko.

 

Yeah, the pieces of the Patriots dynasty just accreted by themselves.

[Hanoverbills]

Fixed

SKOOBY what makes you think Edwards can throw 4 tds againts N.E. when the four teams with winning records he started againts he had a total of 2 tds.

[oak tree 12]

Trent Edwards got sacked only one time for every 16 drop backs last season. The Bills yards per rush was pedestrian. The Bills lost (in part) because their receivers couldn't get open. The O-line didn't kill the Bills. It wasn't great, but it wasn't killer. Neither McNally nor Kugler could make All Pros out of the bunch, but they were serviceable (especially compared to what came before).

 

So now the Bills totally uprooted the O-line, and replaced it with WHAT?

 

Who knows?

 

So now the Bills seem to have a receiving corps, but why should I believe the O-line will perform against the AFC East monster 3-4s? Why should I believe in Sean Kugler?

 

Pass the Kool Aid.

 

 

stick your kool aide where the sun dont shine.

 

your totally out of your mind saying they were servicable. they could not run block to save their ass how many times did we have third and 1 and we made the yard? not many . we were so weak up the middle it wasent funny. the rest of the afc nose guards ate up preston and dockery like they were their bitches its as simple as that.

 

the bills did not like their center and LG they went out and found guys they like to replace them.if you have a problem with that good for you.

 

imo its better than doing nothing. they knew they were weak up the middle and went out and addressed it and you have a problem with that? makes sense to me?

 

mike lombardi said dockery graded out the worst of all the afc guards. hangartner is young and played as the sixth man on a great line and played great @ center and guard due to injuries last year. the bills targeted him and if you dont think he's a better option than preston then your drinking the kool aide.

 

lastly in the hurry up offense the bills will be using a three step drop and the ball will be coming out very fast and on time. the young revamped line will not be expected to hold the fort for 4 and 5 seconds. as they jell they will only get better and so will the offense.

 

to knock something before you even see them preform is also not very intelligent.

[Billistic]

stick your kool aide where the sun dont shine.

 

your totally out of your mind saying they were servicable. they could not run block to save their ass how many times did we have third and 1 and we made the yard? not many . we were so weak up the middle it wasent funny. the rest of the afc nose guards ate up preston and dockery like they were their bitches its as simple as that.

 

the bills did not like their center and LG they went out and found guys they like to replace them.if you have a problem with that good for you.

 

imo its better than doing nothing. they knew they were weak up the middle and went out and addressed it and you have a problem with that? makes sense to me?

 

mike lombardi said dockery graded out the worst of all the afc guards. hangartner is young and played as the sixth man on a great line and played great @ center and guard due to injuries last year. the bills targeted him and if you dont think he's a better option than preston then your drinking the kool aide.

 

lastly in the hurry up offense the bills will be using a three step drop and the ball will be coming out very fast and on time. the young revamped line will not be expected to hold the fort for 4 and 5 seconds. as they jell they will only get better and so will the offense.

 

to knock something before you even see them preform is also not very intelligent.

 

1. The changes were not made with benefit of forethought using a strategy. Peters (Gene V's meal ticket) was never going to play for the Bills, after they pulled his chain during the 2008 hold out fiasco. That tipped over the 1st domino. Jason will now be replaced by...oh no!

 

2. Derrick Dockery played well before he was sentenced to play for Kugler, and he'll play well again now that he's escaped from the gulag. The FO dumped him because they already had (fill in the blank) as a ready, superior replacement.

 

3. EVERYBODY knows that the Bills haven't had a big league center dating back to the Pleistocene Era. Is Hanglider the answer, or is he another Larry Tripplett, i.e., another of John Guy's many masterstrokes?

 

4. Langston, Butler and Chambers are going to have to buy their tickets just like you and me in order to get into the Pro Bowl game. (Who wouldn't love to see Langston on Dancing With the Stars?)

 

5. Eric Wood and Andy Levitre versus Vince Wilfork, Jason Ferguson and Chris Jenkins and the rest of the 3-4 hammers in the East just doesn't thrill me as much as it thrills Chris Brown and you. Besides, Andy's arms are so short that he has to get his short sleeve shirts hemmed.

 

6. So you're recommending that I stick my Kool Aid in Buffalo?

 

7. Passing on the Kool Aid is different from knocking what you haven't seen. Am I knocking the OBD ability to gauge and acquire talent? Damn right.

 

What comes after 7?

[billsfan89]

This line does not, to me, look like the result of some brilliant long term plan. It smells to me more like, "what the hell do we do now?" in the wake of disasters like losing Peters and the Dockery mistake. What do we do? Oh, oh, oh, I know, lets move this guy over here, and that guy over there, then draft this guy and that guy. Sure it might work but it will be a brilliant accident if it does.

 

Well once Peters and Dockery were gone you had to start somewhere. Going into the draft the Bills had the 11th 28th 42nd picks in the draft. As well as a third round pick and two fourth round picks. I think they looked at their line and said well we have a center in Hangardner and a guard in Brad Butler who can switch to RT. Now in the draft its hard to find a top tier LT and they penciled in their 11th pick for a pass rusher. But they needed help on the offensive line.

 

So they looked at the guard positions and said we can pick up two guards and fill out the line that way. Its easier to find top tier guards than top tier tackles. You can usually pick up a top tier guard in the late first to mid second round while tackles come off earlier. There is also a higher bust rate on right and left tackles.

 

So they took Wood at pick 28 and than (Because DJ has an agreement with the league to take a DB) we picked up Byrd as another defensive player. Then (Either by luck or hopefully design) they traded back up into the second round to pick up Levitre who was the top guard prospect in the draft.

 

The way the Bills draft isn't Ralph or the FO throwing darts at a board and hoping they land good players it has some sort of design to it. The O-line I think is following a Philosophy of build the other 4 positions and than find the last hard to get piece. Peters was gone and you had to start somewhere and getting guards later in the first and second round was an effective formula that still allowed two top picks to be spent on the defense.

[billsfan89]

1. The changes were not made with benefit of forethought using a strategy. Peters (Gene V's meal ticket) was never going to play for the Bills, after they pulled his chain during the 2008 hold out fiasco. That tipped over the 1st domino. Jason will now be replaced by...oh no!

 

2. Derrick Dockery played well before he was sentenced to play for Kugler, and he'll play well again now that he's escaped from the gulag. The FO dumped him because they already had (fill in the blank) as a ready, superior replacement.

 

3. EVERYBODY knows that the Bills haven't had a big league center dating back to the Pleistocene Era. Is Hanglider the answer, or is he another Larry Tripplett, i.e., another of John Guy's many masterstrokes?

 

4. Langston, Butler and Chambers are going to have to buy their tickets just like you and me in order to get into the Pro Bowl game. (Who wouldn't love to see Langston on Dancing With the Stars?)

 

5. Eric Wood and Andy Levitre versus Vince Wilfork, Jason Ferguson and Chris Jenkins and the rest of the 3-4 hammers in the East just doesn't thrill me as much as it thrills Chris Brown and you. Besides, Andy's arms are so short that he has to get his short sleeve shirts hemmed.

 

6. So you're recommending that I stick my Kool Aid in Buffalo?

 

7. Passing on the Kool Aid is different from knocking what you haven't seen. Am I knocking the OBD ability to gauge and acquire talent? Damn right.

 

What comes after 7?

 

Well I think you fundamentally overrate the offensive lines play from last year. We had a LT who took a while to play at a high level. We had a LG who played below average. We had a Center who was terrible. The right side produced slightly above average play but they weren't all pro caliber.

 

Even before the Peters trade we still needed two big upgrades along the O-line. Dockery just wasn't worth it and Center has been a big problem for a while. So before the Peters trade they made the move to sign Hangardner (Who has started 56% of Carolina's games at center during his time there). So the line was before the Peters trade was

Peters-?-Hangardner-Butler-Walker now not a bad unit assuming they were going to address the LG issue. Now I wasn't in favor of trading Peters but once he was gone you had to rebuild the line.

 

So going into the draft the line was ?-?-Hangardner-Butler-Walker. Now going into the draft they decided to pick up two guards and shift over Butler than have Walker serve as a stop gap. A good Philosophy to get value for their picks. So don't make it seem like we went from the electric company to this unorganized mess. We went from a slightly below average line to a line that is rebuilt more for long term success.

[BuffaloBill]

Cohesion, Brains and Brawn Plus better character, loyalty and team unity. http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afceast/0-9-5/R...e-overhaul.html

 

I'll take a sip...

 

 

On paper arguably improved the interior but two unprven rookies and a LT that is better placed at RT has me nervous.

[Billistic]

Well I think you fundamentally overrate the offensive lines play from last year.

 

Here's how I rated the Bills 2008 O-line:

 

...they were serviceable (especially compared to what came before).

 

By "serviceable" I meant that they were not the weakest link in the Bills chain.

 

I do think the weakest links in the 2008 Bills chain (just talking players; don't get me started on the coaches and FO) were the receiving corps and the front 4.

 

I think the 2008 O-line would have been good enough, together with Owens, Evans, Reed and Nelson, to permit the Bills to light it up a little, and give Moorman a rest.

 

I will be happily shocked if Maybin and the return of Schobel keeps Tom Brady awake at night.

[billsfan89]

Here's how I rated the Bills 2008 O-line:

 

 

 

By "serviceable" I meant that they were not the weakest link in the Bills chain.

 

I do think the weakest links in the 2008 Bills chain (just talking players; don't get me started on the coaches and FO) were the receiving corps and the front 4.

 

I think the 2008 O-line would have been good enough, together with Owens, Evans, Reed and Nelson, to permit the Bills to light it up a little, and give Moorman a rest.

 

I will be happily shocked if Maybin and the return of Schobel keeps Tom Brady awake at night.

 

Like I said I was all for keeping Peters but once he was gone you can't knock they Philosophy they employed in building the line