Jim in Anchorage Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Pleased to meet you. If you believe, you believe... But whats puzzling you is the nature of my game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 It's only "malicious" if you've fallen for the GOP marketing campaign that liberal = bad and conservative = good. The Pope issued his statements and call to action based directly on faith and morals. And certainly Catholics can disagree. You can disagree with helping others less fortunate. You can disagree with taking care of the earth God gave us. And I can disagree on birth control and abortion. Here's the rub. With liberals they include a broad group of people in those that they consider less fortunate. Making less money than me does not make someone less fortunate. Deciding to live in a tent in a park because they've chosen to abuse drugs and alochol instead of working does not make someone less fortunate than me. Because someone was born in another country but said country really sucks so they would really, really want to live here does not make them less fortunate than me. Because they decided that big screen TVs and lavish vacations are more important than saving for their retirement does not make them less forunate than me. Being disabled (mentally or physically) that makes them less fortunate than me and I am more than willing to help those people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Here's the rub. With liberals they include a broad group of people in those that they consider less fortunate. Making less money than me does not make someone less fortunate. Deciding to live in a tent in a park because they've chosen to abuse drugs and alochol instead of working does not make someone less fortunate than me. Because someone was born in another country but said country really sucks so they would really, really want to live here does not make them less fortunate than me. Because they decided that big screen TVs and lavish vacations are more important than saving for their retirement does not make them less forunate than me. Being disabled (mentally or physically) that makes them less fortunate than me and I am more than willing to help those people. Bingo. I would say also that I have no trouble supporting kids who are growing up in the other groups as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Bingo. I would say also that I have no trouble supporting kids who are growing up in the other groups as well. I really feel for the kids. I've mentioned before that I have some real facist ideas regarding that. And it's that every one has their tubes tied at birth. You must pass a intelligence test and an ecomic test before your tubes are untied. In today's paper Chuckie Schumer was introducing a bill (I guess now that Hillary's gone she can't keep throwing this one out) that every child born in the US should be given $500. He said that the cost couldn't be determined at this time. Well the next sentence said there are roughly 4 million births here in the US every year. Sounds like Chuckie needs a calculator. Anyway I told my wife what they should do is offer to untie the tubes if the person could come up with the $500. I really couldn't believe that...$500 to every child born in the US and it also said that in come circumstances they would add $500 to that account every year. WTF!!??! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 Here's the rub. With liberals they include a broad group of people in those that they consider less fortunate. Making less money than me does not make someone less fortunate. Deciding to live in a tent in a park because they've chosen to abuse drugs and alochol instead of working does not make someone less fortunate than me. Because someone was born in another country but said country really sucks so they would really, really want to live here does not make them less fortunate than me. Because they decided that big screen TVs and lavish vacations are more important than saving for their retirement does not make them less forunate than me. Being disabled (mentally or physically) that makes them less fortunate than me and I am more than willing to help those people. I do not believe that the Pope was suggesting that we help those people who are not really victims, but think they are. I do think that if someone is unfortunate enough to be born in a sucky country run by evildoers, where there's a 25% infant mortaility rate and no hope, that isn't their fault. America was founded by people whose countries of origin sucked. based on your statement, we shouldn't be here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I do not believe that the Pope was suggesting that we help those people who are not really victims, but think they are. I do think that if someone is unfortunate enough to be born in a sucky country run by evildoers, where there's a 25% infant mortaility rate and no hope, that isn't their fault. America was founded by people whose countries of origin sucked. based on your statement, we shouldn't be here. So we just open up the !@#$ing doors and let 'em all in. Hell raise my taxes to pay for the plane tickets. So should there be a limit to how many we let in? Oh and the Pope is not suggesting we help those people...the liberals are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I do not believe that the Pope was suggesting that we help those people who are not really victims, but think they are. I do think that if someone is unfortunate enough to be born in a sucky country run by evildoers, where there's a 25% infant mortaility rate and no hope, that isn't their fault. America was founded by people whose countries of origin sucked. based on your statement, we shouldn't be here. Wow. If all I knew is what you post,you just wrote off anyone born in the US 2002-2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Here's the rub. With liberals they include a broad group of people in those that they consider less fortunate. Making less money than me does not make someone less fortunate. Deciding to live in a tent in a park because they've chosen to abuse drugs and alochol instead of working does not make someone less fortunate than me. Because someone was born in another country but said country really sucks so they would really, really want to live here does not make them less fortunate than me. Because they decided that big screen TVs and lavish vacations are more important than saving for their retirement does not make them less forunate than me. Being disabled (mentally or physically) that makes them less fortunate than me and I am more than willing to help those people. Dennis Miller said it best: I have no problem helping the helpless. I just don't want to help the clueless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Incorrect. Again, there is no mention in those quotes - or in any of his quotes - where the role of the state was elucidated. Jesus, to paraphrase, said "you ought to financially help out the less fortunate whenever possible because they have intrinsic value too," not "you MUST financially help out the less fortunate or the Roman Empire will have you incarcerated for your insubordination." Jesus was a seminal political philosopher who helped lay the foundation for individual rights, but he predates the entire "socialism vs. laissez-faire capitalism" debate by about 1800 years. Gene, you seem to be espousing this false dichotomy where socialism equates to caring for others, while the free market is akin to "fu*k off, I'm in it only for myself." I would argue that the free market is morally and consequentially superior to socialism because its assistance for the destitute (via churches, Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity, etc...) is completely voluntary and actually more efficient than what the state could ever provide (one of many examples: aid during Hurricane Katrina). I believe that he's saying Jesus never said charity should be mandated. I believe he's right about that. I also believe that if your going to call yourself a CHRISTian then you need to follow the teachings of Christ. I have yet to meet a Christian in this country. Actually, I think these quotes attributed to Jesus stand on their own and are not improved by your paraphrasing. Particularly "go, sell what you have, and give to the poor", "forgive our debtors" and "give to every one who begs from you". These are not qualified anywhere in the Bible. They are direct commands and speak to the relative importance that should be placed on personal wealth and gain vs. helping others. If you have more than others, give directly to them. I never claimed that Jesus played at politics. He was above all that schitt. His principles, however were clearly Socialist and Liberal with regards to what those terms mean in American politics today. If the free market system is so perfect and adequately cares for the destitute and those who cannot take care of themselves, then why are we even having this debate? Why the need to even debate the necessity of individual entitlement programs? Shouldn't the free market take care of it for us? The answer is that the free market is not a perfect system. You cannot count on human beings Christian posers to be generous enough to get rid of the need for at least some government redistribution of wealth. Conservatism is a selfish philosophy and is all about looking out for number one. That and throwing the occasional table scrap to the odd pleb here and there and then letting everyone know how generous you are. Fixed! A lot of conservative Christians I've spoken to have said that charity should take care of social problems. The problem being they aren't even close to meeting those needs now. It's one thing to believe Jesus was real but Lucifer? That would be Mick Jagger. Hoo! Hoo! Here's the rub. With liberals they include a broad group of people in those that they consider less fortunate. Making less money than me does not make someone less fortunate. Deciding to live in a tent in a park because they've chosen to abuse drugs and alochol instead of working does not make someone less fortunate than me. Because someone was born in another country but said country really sucks so they would really, really want to live here does not make them less fortunate than me. Because they decided that big screen TVs and lavish vacations are more important than saving for their retirement does not make them less forunate than me. Being disabled (mentally or physically) that makes them less fortunate than me and I am more than willing to help those people. You've got to be kidding me. Did you read that after you wrote it? It's obvious to me that those people are A LOT less fortunate. I don't understand how you arrive at that conclusion. I really feel for the kids. I've mentioned before that I have some real facist ideas regarding that. And it's that every one has their tubes tied at birth. You must pass a intelligence test and an ecomic test before your tubes are untied. In today's paper Chuckie Schumer was introducing a bill (I guess now that Hillary's gone she can't keep throwing this one out) that every child born in the US should be given $500. He said that the cost couldn't be determined at this time. Well the next sentence said there are roughly 4 million births here in the US every year. Sounds like Chuckie needs a calculator. Anyway I told my wife what they should do is offer to untie the tubes if the person could come up with the $500. I really couldn't believe that...$500 to every child born in the US and it also said that in come circumstances they would add $500 to that account every year. WTF!!??! Link? So we just open up the !@#$ing doors and let 'em all in. Hell raise my taxes to pay for the plane tickets. So should there be a limit to how many we let in? Oh and the Pope is not suggesting we help those people...the liberals are. Where did anyone say that the doors should be opened and to let all of them in? You're creating straw men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Forgot to add this thought; If this is a so-called "CHRISTian" nation the voters would be a lot more liberal than they are. CHRISTianity is a liberal religion. Many conservatives seem to think the opposite. I defy anyone to explain, based on the teachings of Jesus, a lot of the political ideals the "CHRISTian right" believes in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Link? Here you go. I may be a heartless bastard but I don't make shiit up. And now that I've provided you your link...thoughts? The Democrat from New York plans to introduce legislation next week that would establish savings accounts for all newborn U.S. citizens and allow them to grow tax free, with the federal government donating $500 to start each account and, in some cases, making matching contributions up to $500 a year. And regarding the people born to sucky countries being less fortunate than me, alright that was wrong, however why should it be up to me to take care of all of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Forgot to add this thought; If this is a so-called "CHRISTian" nation the voters would be a lot more liberal than they are. CHRISTianity is a liberal religion. Many conservatives seem to think the opposite. I defy anyone to explain, based on the teachings of Jesus, a lot of the political ideals the "CHRISTian right" believes in. Abortion. How much is given by charities to help defray medical costs of mothers who otherwise would have abortions? How much in legal costs to help with adoptions. If people didn't give 50% of their money to the government for forced giving to entitlement programs, then maybe more money would be available for giving. How many homeless and food shelters are run by limo liberals and hollywood types? Oh thats right most/all are run by religious groups. How many orphanages are run by the government? Most aren't most are run by religious folks. Religious hospitals? Plenty. How would the limo libs and hollywood types feel about having the dregs of society show up and sit next to them in a waiting room at their ritzy hospitals. They don't. You sit there and criticize but you don't open your eyes to the wealth of good done by folks who give money and could give more. Who bring food to the shelters, who care for the sick, volunteer, etc... You need to really look around and see the good that is being done, and what more could be done if people could direct their giving to organizations who can better use it rather than hire hundreds/thousands of government scabs who do nothing to the process of helping. Then paying more taxes to help fund someones earmarks rather than where it is better used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share Posted July 10, 2009 So we just open up the !@#$ing doors and let 'em all in. Hell raise my taxes to pay for the plane tickets. So should there be a limit to how many we let in? Oh and the Pope is not suggesting we help those people...the liberals are. So then you would agree that the native American Indians got !@#$ED royally? Because they didn't want our ancestors here any more than you want those huddled masses. Please explain to me why is was good for OUR people to come to America, and not for someone else's? If God has truly blessed this country, as many believe, then is it not a sin to not share the gift of God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 So then you would agree that the native American Indians got !@#$ED royally? Because they didn't want our ancestors here any more than you want those huddled masses. Please explain to me why is was good for OUR people to come to America, and not for someone else's? If God has truly blessed this country, as many believe, then is it not a sin to not share the gift of God? Oh come on don't be stupid (to find out what kind of stupid check with Kelly). It's not who but how many. There's a big difference between legal and illegal and the amount we can accommodate and the numbers that are here and keep coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Oh come on don't be stupid (to find out what kind of stupid check with Kelly). It's not who but how many. There's a big difference between legal and illegal and the amount we can accommodate and the numbers that are here and keep coming. It's more than that. It's also coming here and being productive. Opening the borders, letting in 200 million folks would be havoc. When people came to this country 100 years ago, they were looking for freedom and work. Too many folks are coming here now for welfare, food stamps and free health care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Abortion. How much is given by charities to help defray medical costs of mothers who otherwise would have abortions? How much in legal costs to help with adoptions. Why don't they make sure all babies born in America are adopted in America? Why is there a need for numerous foreign adoptions? If people didn't give 50% of their money to the government for forced giving to entitlement programs, then maybe more money would be available for giving. That reminds me of the guys I work with who say "If they paid me more, I'd work harder!" If charity were a true concern of self-proclaimed "CHRISTians" how much money is left after taxes wouldn't matter. Why are there so many "CHRISTians" who own Mercedes and Rolls Royce and such. How many homeless and food shelters are run by limo liberals and hollywood types? Oh thats right most/all are run by religious groups. What do "Limo Liberals" have anything to do with this argument? If they are calling themselves "CHRISTians" then they are as guilty as the rest. You seem to believe that I'm saying all liberals claiming to be "CHRISTians" are ok. If you'd go back and read you'd see that I said that I have yet to meet a true "CHRISTian" in this country and that includes liberals. However, liberal politics is a lot closer to the teachings of CHRIST than conservative politics. JMO Here's just a few secular aid groups; Secular Charities and Aid groups: DonorsChoose.org a simple way to provide students in need with resources that our public schools often lack. Kiva.org lets you connect with and loan money to unique small businesses in the developing world. The Union of Concerned Scientists The leading science-based non-profit working for a healthy environment and safer world. American Red Cross The American Red Cross, a humanitarian organization led by volunteers, guided by its Congressional Charter and the Fundamental Principles of the International Red Cross Movement, will provide relief to victims of disasters and help people prevent, prepare for, and respond to emergencies. The USA's premier emergency response organization, over 91% of Red Cross spending is on charitable services. American Civil Liberties Union The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of constitutional protections and guarantees relating to First Amendment rights, including the freedom to practice religion and the freedom not to have religion rammed down our throats, equal protection, due process, and right to privacy. United Nations Children's Fund UNICEF mobilizes political will and material resources to help countries, particularly developing countries, ensure a "first call for children" and to build their capacity to form appropriate policies and deliver services for children and their families. UNICEF provides emergency and disaster relief. Doctors without Borders Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) is an international independent medical humanitarian organization that delivers emergency aid to people affected by armed conflict, epidemics, natural and man-made disasters, and exclusion from health care in nearly 70 countries. Amnesty International AI’s vision is of a world in which every person enjoys all of the human rights enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other international human rights standards. In pursuit of this vision, AI’s mission is to undertake research and action focused on preventing and ending grave abuses of the rights to physical and mental integrity, freedom of conscience and expression, and freedom from discrimination, within the context of its work to promote all human rights. Oxfam International Oxfam International is a confederation of 12 organizations working together with over 3,000 partners in more than 100 countries to find lasting solutions to poverty, suffering and injustice. The Oxfams operate in over 100 countries worldwide working with local partners to alleviate poverty and injustice. The Nature Conservancy The Nature Conservancy is a leading international, nonprofit organization dedicated to preserving the diversity of life on Earth. An environmental group that protects natural habitats and the wildlife within them. Focuses on "science-based" initiatives. Population Connection Population Connection is the national grassroots population organization that educates young people and advocates progressive action to stabilize world population at a level that can be sustained by Earth's resources. Works against faith-based policies that are supported by the Religious Right. DefCon: Campaign to Defend the Constitution DefCon is an online grassroots movement combating the growing power of the religious right. It includes a blog on religious freedom issues, action alerts, and in-depth articles on scientific, religious, and legal issues of the day. The SEED foundation National nonprofit that establishes urban public boarding schools to prepare students from underserved communities for success in college. Project Peanut Butter Project Peanut Butter is a therapeutic feeding program for malnourished children in Malawi and Sierra Leone, on the continent of Africa. It was founded by Professor Mark Manary, M.D., a pediatrician at St. Louis Children’s Hospital and a professor of pediatric medicine at Washington University School of Medicine. Electronic Frontiers Foundation When our freedoms in the networked world come under attack, the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is the first line of defense. Blending the expertise of lawyers, policy analysts, activists, and technologists, EFF achieves significant victories on behalf of consumers and the general public. EFF fights for freedom primarily in the courts, bringing and defending lawsuits even when that means taking on the US government or large corporations. Mercy corps Mercy Corps exists to alleviate suffering, poverty and oppression by helping people build secure, productive and just communities. Seva Our programs serve people who have been economically, politically, or otherwise marginalized. We change our program approach to relate to their culture and circumstances, reaching out in very different ways, for example, to nomads in Tibet, women in Tanzania, or indigenous Mayans in Guatemala. Our aim is to build a bridge of compassion between our donors and the people we serve — people around the world who have the fewest resources. International Peace Institute The International Peace Institute (IPI) formerly International Peace Academy is an independent, international institution dedicated to promoting the prevention and settlement of armed conflict between and within states through policy research and development. How many orphanages are run by the government? Most aren't most are run by religious folks. Why are orphanages necessary? If every "CHRISTian" with the means adopted as many kids as they could afford then there wouldn't be any orphanages. So saying religious organizations run organizations that are unnecessary under true "CHRISTianity" is weak at best. Religious hospitals? Plenty. How would the limo libs and hollywood types feel about having the dregs of society show up and sit next to them in a waiting room at their ritzy hospitals. They don't. Once again, what do the Hollywood types have to do with anything? Stop trying to deflect your own shortcomings as a "CHRISTian" onto others. It seems like you believe that if they are posers then your posing is ok. You seem to believe that religious hospitals provide totally free treatments and make no money. Strong Memorial Hospital in Rochester is a "not for profit" hospital and without religious affiliations. You sit there and criticize but you don't open your eyes to the wealth of good done by folks who give money and could give more. Who bring food to the shelters, who care for the sick, volunteer, etc... Exactly! You're ignoring all of the hard work secularists do for charity. How many religious charities do it for a price? A lot of religious missionary's provide charity at the cost of making conversions to Christianity. You need to really look around and see the good that is being done, and what more could be done if people could direct their giving to organizations who can better use it rather than hire hundreds/thousands of government scabs who do nothing to the process of helping. Then paying more taxes to help fund someones earmarks rather than where it is better used. Charity from "CHRISTians" isn't even close to meeting all charitable needs. How you figure that giant government cuts in social programs would be made up by "CHRISTian posers? The bottom line is that I wasn't ignoring anything when I say that "CHRISTianity is a lot closer to liberal politics than conservative politics. You've glossed that over. Do you really believe that conservative politics is more in line with "CHRISTianity than liberal politics? If so explain why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Charity from "CHRISTians" isn't even close to meeting all charitable needs. How you figure that giant government cuts in social programs would be made up by "CHRISTian posers? A lot of it will be made up by lots of people saying "damn, I guess I've got to go out and get a job." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Steely, I know you're about 12 but Jesus !@#$ing Christ can you stop with your little ee cummings typeface fun? I generally at least skim your posts but I will not read that unreadable tripe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 A lot of it will be made up by lots of people saying "damn, I guess I've got to go out and get a job." What does that have to do with anything? Christian groups should step up and help out in that area. Steely, I know you're about 12 but Jesus !@#$ing Christ can you stop with your little ee cummings typeface fun? I generally at least skim your posts but I will not read that unreadable tripe. Way off on age and you have absolutely no idea how upset it makes me that you skipped my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 What does that have to do with anything? Christian groups should step up and help out in that area. How about God helps those who help themselves or how about give a man a fish he eats for a day teach him how to fish he eats for a lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts