Whites Bay Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I'll start by saying that I'm not an "X and O" geek. I've learned a lot about football from this board (as well as how to better deal with children, but that's another post), so rather than to spend time on Football 101 and read THAT idiot's ideas, I thought I'd look for ideas from OTHER idiots. Here's a question that's been kicking around the three or four functioning synapses in my brain. Defending against Evans has been, well, fairly easy. Roll another safety over that direction, and you've eliminated 75% of the deep threat the Bills could muster. (Probably closer to 100%). OBD has now added Owens to the other side. I personally don't care WHICH one of them is the Number 1 receiver! The Bills now have two legitimate threats on the outside who can out run almost...well....no...let's say "anyone" in the league. I understand the Pats* trolls on this board will posture accordingly, but in their respective hearts-of-hearts, they must know that this is going to be a problem. How does the opponent defend against a combination like that? 1) Does the opponent double-cover both outside WRs? Do that and Fred Jackson, Josh Reed and/or Roscoe Parrish in the middle are singled up on a LB. THAT would be hell, particularly if Edwards drops the ball behind the LB. To repeat, THAT would be hell. 2) Will the Bills be seeing more Nickel? That would be the obvious choice. Since all the AFC East opponents are 3-4 teams, however, doesn't that leave them with 3 DL, 3 LB, 2 CB, 3 S? Fairly easy on which to run? 3) Will the Bills be seeing a predominance of Dime? Once again, in a 3-4 formation, wouldn't the Bills be seeing 3 DL, 2 LB, 2 CB, 4S? If this is the case, don't we have to ask how many teams are actually CARRYING that many DBs? (And, before you start, I don't fuggin' want to hear about Jauron having so many goddamn DBs, blah, blah, blah). Additionally, wouldn't a Dime package be shredded by a solid running game? I mean, a lot worse than the nickel, I would think, right? Or possibly susceptible to the short pass? I'm not trying to be a gushing "homer". I'm studying the chess board, and it looks like - against all odds - OBD has actually put a decent offensive package together. Apologies if this is too cerebral...or if it's too naive. I could start another post that would allow us all to say "You Suck", followed by replies of "No, you suck", followed by replies of "Stop calling me names". And, who knows? Maybe this post will end up there. But for those of you who actually have played the game, and who actually know your subject matter, I throw the post open. Because I'm just obsessing on this stuff. ASSUMING THE INTERIOR OF THE OFFENSIVE LINE HOLDS, a guy like Trent Edwards could be a kid in a candy shop. If I'm a Defensive Coordinator, I'm paid to make sure he gets cavities. How does one game plan against it?
The Big Cat Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I'll start by saying that I'm not an "X and O" geek. I've learned a lot about football from this board (as well as how to better deal with children, but that's another post), so rather than to spend time on Football 101 and read THAT idiot's ideas, I thought I'd look for ideas from OTHER idiots. Here's a question that's been kicking around the three or four functioning synapses in my brain. Defending against Evans has been, well, fairly easy. Roll another safety over that direction, and you've eliminated 75% of the deep threat the Bills could muster. (Probably closer to 100%). OBD has now added Owens to the other side. I personally don't care WHICH one of them is the Number 1 receiver! The Bills now have two legitimate threats on the outside who can out run almost...well....no...let's say "anyone" in the league. I understand the Pats* trolls on this board will posture accordingly, but in their respective hearts-of-hearts, they must know that this is going to be a problem. How does the opponent defend against a combination like that? 1) Does the opponent double-cover both outside WRs? Do that and Fred Jackson, Josh Reed and/or Roscoe Parrish in the middle are singled up on a LB. THAT would be hell, particularly if Edwards drops the ball behind the LB. To repeat, THAT would be hell. 2) Will the Bills be seeing more Nickel? That would be the obvious choice. Since all the AFC East opponents are 3-4 teams, however, doesn't that leave them with 3 DL, 3 LB, 2 CB, 3 S? Fairly easy on which to run? 3) Will the Bills be seeing a predominance of Dime? Once again, in a 3-4 formation, wouldn't the Bills be seeing 3 DL, 2 LB, 2 CB, 4S? If this is the case, don't we have to ask how many teams are actually CARRYING that many DBs? (And, before you start, I don't fuggin' want to hear about Jauron having so many goddamn DBs, blah, blah, blah). Additionally, wouldn't a Dime package be shredded by a solid running game? I mean, a lot worse than the nickel, I would think, right? Or possibly susceptible to the short pass? I'm not trying to be a gushing "homer". I'm studying the chess board, and it looks like - against all odds - OBD has actually put a decent offensive package together. Apologies if this is too cerebral...or if it's too naive. I could start another post that would allow us all to say "You Suck", followed by replies of "No, you suck", followed by replies of "Stop calling me names". And, who knows? Maybe this post will end up there. But for those of you who actually have played the game, and who actually know your subject matter, I throw the post open. Because I'm just obsessing on this stuff. ASSUMING THE INTERIOR OF THE OFFENSIVE LINE HOLDS, a guy like Trent Edwards could be a kid in a candy shop. If I'm a Defensive Coordinator, I'm paid to make sure he gets cavities. How does one game plan against it? I believe your line of thinking is the same that gives all us "cerebral" observers optimism. Two HUGE wild cards in this equation: Edwards, and our brand spanking new OLine. But, against the 3-4, we'll undoubtedly be more stout up the middle compared to last year (not much of a feat), and Edwards, healthy or not, will be entering his third year seeing most of his time as a starter. IMO, both aspects lend also lend themselves to optimism. GO BILLS!
spartacus Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Defenses will do the same thing they have for most of the last decade - they will pressure the Bills QB they will try to exploit and confuse the rookies they will run past Walker they will create mismatches they will not need to double cover the WRs because Trent will not have time to do much other dump it off
The_Philster Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 couple minor points in nickel, it's usually 3 CB, 2 S in dime, it's either 3 and 3 or 4CB, 2 S...depending on who's active that game and what kind of personnel grouping the offense is showing Also, most teams carry 9-10 DBs on their rosters..though it's not common for them all to be active on gamedays
Whites Bay Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 Not trying to poop on this, Spartacus, but this is the sort of "You suck/I suck" dialogue I was trying to get past. Defenses will do the same thing they have for most of the last decade - they will pressure the Bills QB Pretty generic. Will they do it with atomic weaponry? they will try to exploit and confuse the rookies That's new. And they would do it........how? they will run past Walker Always a possibility. He held his own in the Seattle game last year, but that's not the point. As I'd said in my post, it comes down to the INTERIOR of the offensive line. I almost don't care about Walker. He won't be great, but he won't be a Mike Williams, okay? Let's get over it. they will create mismatches O..........kay................. they will not need to double cover the WRs because Trent will not have time to do much other dump it off Thanks for playing. What else? I'm not trying to be a dick. I want to know what I'm watching on Monday Night Football other than "They're going to pressure the QB and create mismatches". I know they're going to pressure the QB and create mismatches. That's why they're paid a LOT more than I'm paid. That's why they suit up, and why I'm in a hotel room posting on a web board.
Whites Bay Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 couple minor pointsin nickel, it's usually 3 CB, 2 S in dime, it's either 3 and 3 or 4CB, 2 S...depending on who's active that game and what kind of personnel grouping the offense is showing Also, most teams carry 9-10 DBs on their rosters..though it's not common for them all to be active on gamedays I'm a dope. I don't understand your "Dime" thing. 3 DLs, 3 LBs, 4 CBs, 2 S = 12 players on the field. Or did you mean.....urghh, I don't know. I'm sorry. You're right about the activation on game days though. That raises another point. If a team is going against the Bills, one would think that teams would have to juggle their respective rosters, wouldn't they? I mean, I suppose they do anyway, but that adds another wrinkle.
spartacus Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Thanks for playing. What else? I'm not trying to be a dick. I want to know what I'm watching on Monday Night Football other than "They're going to pressure the QB and create mismatches". I know they're going to pressure the QB and create mismatches. That's why they're paid a LOT more than I'm paid. That's why they suit up, and why I'm in a hotel room posting on a web board. Unfortunately the Patriots will not be as nearly impressed with the Bills offense as you seem to be. they will not play on their heels and worry about stopping TO. they will come out in their base 3-4 defense and come after the QB until the Bills shiny new OL proves they can stop it. TO is not a threat if Trent is running for his life. to further confuse the situation, they will alternate a full frontal assault with dropping the LBs and forcing Trent to make a play. Trent could not handle it last year- so he will be tested again..
The Big Cat Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but this is pretty laughable: Defenses will do the same thing they have for most of the last decade - they will pressure the Bills QB Then who will cover the receivers/RB? That was, after all, the OP's point. they will try to exploit and confuse the rookies You mean the two rookies noted for their extreme intelligence? The rookies playing on either side of the league record holder in the Wonderlic test? they will run past Walker Walker's a lot of things: huge, pretty fat, and slow to the outside on run plays, but one thing he has NOT been in his two years in Buffalo is a liability in the passing game. they will create mismatches Care to be more specific? they will not need to double cover the WRs because Trent will not have time to do much other dump it off Ibid. If you're going to contribute content to threads like these, try to pull said content from somewhere other than your fat pimply a$$.
The Big Cat Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Unfortunately the Patriots will not be as nearly impressed with the Bills offense as you seem to be. they will not play on their heels and worry about stopping TO. they will come out in their base 3-4 defense and come after the QB until the Bills shiny new OL proves they can stop it. TO is not a threat if Trent is running for his life. to further confuse the situation, they will alternate a full frontal assault with dropping the LBs and forcing Trent to make a play. Trent could not handle it last year- so he will be tested again.. You're a complete dope. You truly are. Or you're a troll, and I'm the fool. But nonetheless: Our problems with the 3-4 defense last year had NOTHING to do with pressure on the QB. What's this "running for his life" you speak of? Trent struggeld against 3-4's because teams would drop their linebackers into a short zone, taking away his safety valve/check down. They forced him to go downfield, and Edwards cowered. Last year against SF when Trent went down, the defense did the exact same thing against JP, just the exact opposite. Instead of stacking short, forcing him to go long, they stacked deep, forcing him to go short. We finished 7-9 last year in large part because we didn't have a QB who was a both a long AND short threat. Now sit down before you fall down.
vincec Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 My guess is that defenses will vary their approaches according to their personnel and philosophy, but I'm fairly confident that we'll see a lot of: 1) Two deep safeties and 7 men in the box, daring the Bills inexperienced and newly assembled offensive line to consistently open holes in the running game. Defense will try to get decent pressure with a 4 man rush. Yes, the Bills can throw to Jackson or Nelson but these guys are not Marshall Faulk and Tony Gonzales. It'll be slow going against these types of defenses and consistency will be the key. 2) 8 man fronts with 5 and 6 man pass rushes. Secondary will disguise their coverages as best as possible to confuse Edwards. Bills will need good, quick reads by the QB and solid blitz pickup against this. The Bills will need to hit a few big plays against this approach to chase teams out of it.
The_Philster Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I'm a dope. I don't understand your "Dime" thing. 3 DLs, 3 LBs, 4 CBs, 2 S = 12 players on the field. Or did you mean.....urghh, I don't know. I'm sorry. You're right about the activation on game days though. That raises another point. If a team is going against the Bills, one would think that teams would have to juggle their respective rosters, wouldn't they? I mean, I suppose they do anyway, but that adds another wrinkle. when a team goes to dime, it drops another LB...so it would be 3 DL, 2 LB, 4 CB, 2 S Take 1995 for example Hansen-Washington-Smith Paup-Bennett Smith-Kerner-Irvin-Burris Jones-Schulz
Beerball Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Similar thoughts to those that have been posted. Defenses will do what they do (teams will play their base) until the Bills show they can adjust. Hopefully... Trent will be able to get a better pre-snap read and move out of plays from time to time when called for. The running game will benefit from more offensive weapons at WR and TE. The O-line will come together quickly. Edwards will be able to anticipate his receivers becoming open. Until the Bills show they can beat a coverage then that's what they'll face. Until the Bills show they can adjust on the fly teams will confuse them (including the OC in this). Lots of pieces are in place offensively and much much much revolves around how the O-line is able to play. If they run block the Bills will be able to pass. If they pass block the Bills will be able to run.
SuperKillerRobots Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I'll start by saying that I'm not an "X and O" geek. I've learned a lot about football from this board (as well as how to better deal with children, but that's another post), so rather than to spend time on Football 101 and read THAT idiot's ideas, I thought I'd look for ideas from OTHER idiots. Here's a question that's been kicking around the three or four functioning synapses in my brain. Defending against Evans has been, well, fairly easy. Roll another safety over that direction, and you've eliminated 75% of the deep threat the Bills could muster. (Probably closer to 100%). OBD has now added Owens to the other side. I personally don't care WHICH one of them is the Number 1 receiver! The Bills now have two legitimate threats on the outside who can out run almost...well....no...let's say "anyone" in the league. I understand the Pats* trolls on this board will posture accordingly, but in their respective hearts-of-hearts, they must know that this is going to be a problem. How does the opponent defend against a combination like that? 1) Does the opponent double-cover both outside WRs? Do that and Fred Jackson, Josh Reed and/or Roscoe Parrish in the middle are singled up on a LB. THAT would be hell, particularly if Edwards drops the ball behind the LB. To repeat, THAT would be hell. 2) Will the Bills be seeing more Nickel? That would be the obvious choice. Since all the AFC East opponents are 3-4 teams, however, doesn't that leave them with 3 DL, 3 LB, 2 CB, 3 S? Fairly easy on which to run? 3) Will the Bills be seeing a predominance of Dime? Once again, in a 3-4 formation, wouldn't the Bills be seeing 3 DL, 2 LB, 2 CB, 4S? If this is the case, don't we have to ask how many teams are actually CARRYING that many DBs? (And, before you start, I don't fuggin' want to hear about Jauron having so many goddamn DBs, blah, blah, blah). Additionally, wouldn't a Dime package be shredded by a solid running game? I mean, a lot worse than the nickel, I would think, right? Or possibly susceptible to the short pass? I'm not trying to be a gushing "homer". I'm studying the chess board, and it looks like - against all odds - OBD has actually put a decent offensive package together. Apologies if this is too cerebral...or if it's too naive. I could start another post that would allow us all to say "You Suck", followed by replies of "No, you suck", followed by replies of "Stop calling me names". And, who knows? Maybe this post will end up there. But for those of you who actually have played the game, and who actually know your subject matter, I throw the post open. Because I'm just obsessing on this stuff. ASSUMING THE INTERIOR OF THE OFFENSIVE LINE HOLDS, a guy like Trent Edwards could be a kid in a candy shop. If I'm a Defensive Coordinator, I'm paid to make sure he gets cavities. How does one game plan against it? I agree with your points about how they could be very good on offense. I will say that in our division, when the 3-4 teams go to nickle or dime, they usually play a conventional set with 4 down linemen and two linebackers (or one linebacker with his hand on the ground). I think the bigger advantage the Bills have in running out of the spread sets is that they have a 3rd WR - Josh Reed - who can block any DB in the league, which allows us to run out of the 3 WR set as if we had two TEs on the field.
Billistic Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I'll start by saying that I'm not an "X and O" geek. I've learned a lot about football from this board (as well as how to better deal with children, but that's another post), so rather than to spend time on Football 101 and read THAT idiot's ideas, I thought I'd look for ideas from OTHER idiots. Here's a question that's been kicking around the three or four functioning synapses in my brain. Defending against Evans has been, well, fairly easy. Roll another safety over that direction, and you've eliminated 75% of the deep threat the Bills could muster. (Probably closer to 100%). OBD has now added Owens to the other side. I personally don't care WHICH one of them is the Number 1 receiver! The Bills now have two legitimate threats on the outside who can out run almost...well....no...let's say "anyone" in the league. I understand the Pats* trolls on this board will posture accordingly, but in their respective hearts-of-hearts, they must know that this is going to be a problem. How does the opponent defend against a combination like that? 1) Does the opponent double-cover both outside WRs? Do that and Fred Jackson, Josh Reed and/or Roscoe Parrish in the middle are singled up on a LB. THAT would be hell, particularly if Edwards drops the ball behind the LB. To repeat, THAT would be hell. 2) Will the Bills be seeing more Nickel? That would be the obvious choice. Since all the AFC East opponents are 3-4 teams, however, doesn't that leave them with 3 DL, 3 LB, 2 CB, 3 S? Fairly easy on which to run? 3) Will the Bills be seeing a predominance of Dime? Once again, in a 3-4 formation, wouldn't the Bills be seeing 3 DL, 2 LB, 2 CB, 4S? If this is the case, don't we have to ask how many teams are actually CARRYING that many DBs? (And, before you start, I don't fuggin' want to hear about Jauron having so many goddamn DBs, blah, blah, blah). Additionally, wouldn't a Dime package be shredded by a solid running game? I mean, a lot worse than the nickel, I would think, right? Or possibly susceptible to the short pass? I'm not trying to be a gushing "homer". I'm studying the chess board, and it looks like - against all odds - OBD has actually put a decent offensive package together. Apologies if this is too cerebral...or if it's too naive. I could start another post that would allow us all to say "You Suck", followed by replies of "No, you suck", followed by replies of "Stop calling me names". And, who knows? Maybe this post will end up there. But for those of you who actually have played the game, and who actually know your subject matter, I throw the post open. Because I'm just obsessing on this stuff. ASSUMING THE INTERIOR OF THE OFFENSIVE LINE HOLDS, a guy like Trent Edwards could be a kid in a candy shop. If I'm a Defensive Coordinator, I'm paid to make sure he gets cavities. How does one game plan against it? In 2008, most teams gave up blitzing Edwards (Adrian Wilson aside, ha, ha) because he performed well against the blitz in the early run, and the Bills went on many the scoring drive. Then opponents went to max zone coverage schemes, and Edwards/Schonert were nonplussed. Actually, Edwards was only sacked on 6% of his pass drops throughout the year. The problem was that the receivers could not beat the coverage. Well, James Hardly didn't even perform to the wretched Peerless Price heights, Reed and the tight ends were either injured, invisible or both. Evans was essentially rendered a non-factor, and only Bong Mode and Fred saw some light. This year TO is supposed to obviate the Hardy void, and, unless I'm mistaken, Shawn Nelson is being groomed to replace James altogether, and Reed and the Dereks are healthy (so far). Steve Johnson may add to the mix. Maybe even Parrish will find a way to contribute on offense. So opposing defenses may not be able to take away Edward's receivers. On the other hand, the Bills offensive line is beyond sketchy, until proven otherwise. Defensive coordinators are essentially compelled to test the Bills ability to pass protect. The ball is in Kugler's court IMO, and Devil Belichick, Ryan and Sparano probably have trouble keeping the smiles off their faces.
vincec Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 I agree with your points about how they could be very good on offense. I will say that in our division, when the 3-4 teams go to nickle or dime, they usually play a conventional set with 4 down linemen and two linebackers (or one linebacker with his hand on the ground). I think the bigger advantage the Bills have in running out of the spread sets is that they have a 3rd WR - Josh Reed - who can block any DB in the league, which allows us to run out of the 3 WR set as if we had two TEs on the field. I hope that this is true. Josh Reed is a tough guy and a good blocker, but he is not a tight end. Running out of 3 WR was the key for the K-Gun bills. The Bills were so good at this that many teams played their conventional personnel against it and not nickel. I think that any team playing in Buffalo MUST be able to run the football to win, so if the Bills play a lot of 3 WR then they will have to learn to run out of it.
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