Tim Graham defends the Patriots claim to

[ExiledInIllinois]

I think the Steelers are the real America's Team.

 

No the Raiders. What more American than a "raider."

 

??

 

And besides, "patriots" threw snowballs at the British soldiers (who were successfully defended in a court of law) making the Boston Massacre what it is.

[4thand1]

Welcome to the Board, Pats fan. I say "Pats fan" since you joined yesterday and have a seemingly well-researched/rehearsed line on why it was all no big deal. Although from some of the posts above perhaps you work for the League!

 

On your arguments re: money, wouldn't it make even more economic sense for the owners to downplay any threat to the integrity of the game so as to save "the franchise" (ie., the League)? Once folks start understanding that it's more like the WWF than a major sport, you risk destroying the entire League. None of the owners wants to remotely go there.

 

As you can see above, rightly or wrongly, not many here are likely to be buying what you're selling. I, like others here, suspect that New England did more cheating than just Spygate, but that's just me/us. I won't go rehash all the aruments above, but while we're on the topic of Steelers-Pats games, I seem to recall one playoff game between the two several years ago when the Steelers had about a 70 yard run nullified on a phantom holding call--par for the course for the Pats, so you probably don't remember it, but rest assured that others who follow the League do......

 

Well, let's see. Folks already seem to feel it is like a WWF league. Robert Kraft has Goodell in his back pocket, right? Yet Super Bowls 42 and 43 were the most watched ever, I think.

 

If the Patriots were wiped out completely, right now, would you keep watching? Although looking at your posting history MattM, about 90 percent of your posts have to do with the Patriots, so I should ask somebody else. Anyone else? Spygate is deemed the worst offense ever in sports, so the Patriots organization is done away with completely. Do you feel that it's now a WWF type league and you'll stop watching?

 

What other cheating do you suspect they have done? And I don't know what "phantom" holding call you're referring to, the Patriots have faced the Steelers several times in the playoffs over the past 12 years or so. Which playoff game was it?

[Flbillsfan#1]

I don't mean to insinuate that you aren't entitled to your opinion, but I think you are pigeon-holing Tim's point a bit. The quote that I think summarizes his position on spygate quite clearly is this (post #50):

 

I've interviewed more people than I can count about Spygate, and the most anybody will say is "It couldn't have hurt," but nobody can say how they benefited. Even the coaches and players who supposedly were cheated during those years don't think the videotaping mattered. Coaches and analysts insist it was a common practice; the Patriots were the only ones caught because of a bitter former employee.

 

You seem to want to pare that down to "Herm Edwards and Jay Fiedler don't think it mattered", which I believe is over-simplifying at best.

 

Yes, New England cheated. Yes, they were caught. Yes, other teams did it too (see other references in this thread). And yes, New England continued to do it despite the league-wide memo that clearly stated it was forbidden. This last point, in my opinion, is the cause of the entire spygate hulabaloo in its entirety. I believe that it was more about the arrogance that Belichick displayed in the face of the NFL's warning that made Mangini (who, by the way, I've taken to calling "The Manjackass") tattle on his former cohort. And, moreover, they were punished more heavily than any other team in history as far as I can recall.

 

Goodell destroyed the evidence, yes. Why? As Peter King stated (can't find the archived link) "to put the entire thing in the past". Good desicion/bad desicion, who knows? However, to draw the conclusion that it's some kind of cover-up that everyone in the league takes part in is--in my mind--kind of ridiculous. Some players were really bothered by it, some others (like Fiedler and former Bills' QB Frank Reich) say it didn't matter in the least. Tim's statement is that (according to him, and I have no reason to doubt his word) most people that he's spoken to don't think it made a huge difference.

 

So then, you ask, why continue to do it at the risk of being caught? I'm not sure. Perhaps Belichick figured that so many other teams had done it that nobody would dare turn him in. Maybe he thought that his on-field opponents already knew about it and would have reported it already if they cared enough to. It's also possible that he really did "misinterpret" the memo that the league sent out (dubious, but possible). Or maybe, just maybe, he said to himself "I'm Bill Belichick, and I work for Robert Kraft, the league can't touch me".

 

The point is, the team certainly didn't take any steps backward because of spygate, which in a lot of people's minds debunks the assertion that the taping of defensive signals played a large role in their superbowl victories. I think there's plenty of credence to that argument.

Does anyone that follows the NFL think Roger Goodell is STUPID? I certainly don't. I think he is VERY intelligent, which begs the question...........why did he DESTROY the EVIDENCE of the Pats CHEATING? If it were minor & inconsequential as the league would like us to believe, the NFL would have been better served letting the WORLD see that. In my mind Goodell destroyed the evidence for one reason, a VERY GOOD reason...................for the GOOD of the NFL, to preserve the integrity of the league. It is much better for the NFL that people THINK the Pats* wins are due to their CHEATING than for everyone to KNOW for a fact that is the case.

[4thand1]

If I may offer as a rebuttal to this line of reasoning.... you don't need to cheat all the time in all situations if you're a good team. Think of it this way, you're taking a test. You study, you know most of the material, but you just can't remember that tricky little Nitrogen Cycle. So you write that down on a piece of paper. During the course of the exam, you may only use that cheat sheet 2 or 3 times, but that's enough to give you an A over a B. So was it worth it? That may be the only exam you cheat on, but without that A, you don't maintain your A average. So, you haven't cheated on all tests (games) on all questions (plays), but you did do something that was unfair that gave you an advantage.

 

How extensive was the Pats* cheating? How much did it actually help? These are questions that a more thorough investigation could have answered. But, no investigation, no answers, no problems. I guess.

 

Again back to the test analogy. If you're given a 24 chapter text book and I say you'll be tested on this in 2 weeks, you have alot of studying to do. What if you then find out 2 days before that the test is only going to cover a few chapters? Now you can forget all that other crap, concentrate on the right chapters and greatly increase your chance of success.

 

Again, a more thorough investigation could have answered the questions of exactly what was done, how much of it was done, and what advantages it had.

 

Wouldn't the 4th quarter of the Super be a good situation to use that cheat sheet? Yet they blew a 14 point lead to the Rams, an 11 point lead to the Panthers (who by the way took steroids before that game, funny how nobody ever mentions that, I suppose it's because they aren't the Patriots), and giving up 7 and having to stop the Eagles on one more drive in SB39.

 

The best I can do is look at the results of the games actually played, and for the most part, the games they won and lost don't match up with a team who knew what plays were coming.

 

I'm all for a deeper investigation, if they get caught doing worse things, it wouldn't change anything, people like MattM think they're cheating in ways other than spygate anyways. But if nothing else happened, some, not all, would maybe get off their back.

 

But even so, there would still be plenty of people who would say that the league and other still covering for the Patriots. That's right, the guys with millions of dollars on the line who were "cheated" out of that money, are still covering up for the benefit of the league.

[4thand1]

Does anyone that follows the NFL think Roger Goodell is STUPID? I certainly don't. I think he is VERY intelligent, which begs the question...........why did he DESTROY the EVIDENCE of the Pats CHEATING? If it were minor & inconsequential as the league would like us to believe, the NFL would have been better served letting the WORLD see that. In my mind Goodell destroyed the evidence for one reason, a VERY GOOD reason...................for the GOOD of the NFL, to preserve the integrity of the league. It is much better for the NFL that people THINK the Pats* wins are due to their CHEATING than for everyone to KNOW for a fact that is the case.

 

What evidence? The six spygate tapes that had Herm Edwards waving to the camera and the footage of the Chargers' cheerleaders cleavage and butts?

 

This is the kind of guy I mentioned that would still think the Patriots were cheating even if a full scale investigation were to occur and they were found to have done nothing else.

[thebandit27]

Does anyone that follows the NFL think Roger Goodell is STUPID? I certainly don't. I think he is VERY intelligent, which begs the question...........why did he DESTROY the EVIDENCE of the Pats CHEATING? If it were minor & inconsequential as the league would like us to believe, the NFL would have been better served letting the WORLD see that. In my mind Goodell destroyed the evidence for one reason, a VERY GOOD reason...................for the GOOD of the NFL, to preserve the integrity of the league. It is much better for the NFL that people THINK the Pats* wins are due to their CHEATING than for everyone to KNOW for a fact that is the case.

 

So then, all I HAVE to do is CAPITALIZE a word every so often and it will make my POINT more VALID? cool, i'll try that.

 

you referenced ABSOLUTELY nothing in my post, and i'm having DIFFICULTY figuring out why you QUOTED me simply to REPEAT the same STUFF you've been saying for 3 pages now. but if YOU'RE going to QUOTE my post, you might as well READ it first. you ask, and I quote: "why did he DESTROY the EVIDENCE of the Pats CHEATING?". Umm, dude, RIGHT in my post (which you quoted without reading) is the following ITEM:

 

Goodell destroyed the evidence, yes. Why? As Peter King stated (can't find the archived link) "to put the entire thing in the past". Good desicion/bad desicion, who knows? However, to draw the conclusion that it's some kind of cover-up that everyone in the league takes part in is--in my mind--kind of ridiculous. Some players were really bothered by it, some others (like Fiedler and former Bills' QB Frank Reich) say it didn't matter in the least. Tim's statement is that (according to him, and I have no reason to doubt his word) most people that he's spoken to don't think it made a huge difference.

 

What part of that implies that the evidence was minor or inconsequential? I believe that the evidence of New England videotaping defensive signals was just that--evidence of New England videotaping defensive signals (which is all that every media outlet in the world ever alleged that it was), why is that so hard for you to believe? If you want to see it, just turn on NFL Network and catch a replay of an NFL game pre-2008, and watch the defensive coordinator 'till your heart's content. Then you'll see the same thing that was on the tapes.

 

Listen, what you're assuming makes zero sense. None. Why would the fact that the tapes show evidence of New England videotaping defensive signals unermine the integrity of the entire league? You've never stated your case on that and appear to be shooting from the hip, and rather wildly at that. I'd rather not assume what you're thinking, but it sounds something like this:

 

Goodell destroyed the evidence so that every other team wouldn't know how bad New England was cheating. Then he told everyone to say that it was no big deal so that everyone that watches football will continue to watch football.

 

Sound about right? I hope not, because that sounds like bitter fan whining, not even an interesting or compelling conspiracty theory.

[thebandit27]

What evidence? The six spygate tapes that had Herm Edwards waving to the camera and the footage of the Chargers' cheerleaders cleavage and butts?

This is the kind of guy I mentioned that would still think the Patriots were cheating even if a full scale investigation were to occur and they were found to have done nothing else.

 

I'm all for not destroying that footage!

[MattM]

Well, let's see. Folks already seem to feel it is like a WWF league. Robert Kraft has Goodell in his back pocket, right? Yet Super Bowls 42 and 43 were the most watched ever, I think.

 

If the Patriots were wiped out completely, right now, would you keep watching? Although looking at your posting history MattM, about 90 percent of your posts have to do with the Patriots, so I should ask somebody else. Anyone else? Spygate is deemed the worst offense ever in sports, so the Patriots organization is done away with completely. Do you feel that it's now a WWF type league and you'll stop watching?

 

What other cheating do you suspect they have done? And I don't know what "phantom" holding call you're referring to, the Patriots have faced the Steelers several times in the playoffs over the past 12 years or so. Which playoff game was it?

 

 

Check the NYT article I linked to numerous posts above, for ex. The Steelers-Pats game was the 2004 season AFC Championship game.....

[Ramius]

If everyone does it, how come 1 team, not 32 teams were punished?

 

The entire spygate screams of a cover-up. If there's nothing wrong, they why not show everyone? If there's no weed in your room, then why are you blocking the door so your dad can't take a peek?The pats* cheated, plain and simple. It likely played a large role in them barely squeaking out 3 tainted super bowl "victories."

 

To the poster who said the panthers were on 'roids, how come there's no mention to rodney harrison (may he rot in hell) being on HGH? (along with a good chunk of the rest of the pats* D) Every wonder why the pats picked up over-the-hill players and they suddenly found "new life?"

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

For those who doubt the beneficial officiating NE* and Belicheat* get please don't miss the opening Monday night 2009 game. You won't have any doubts after that. That is only one benefit of Belciheat'*s cheating. When you win you gain esteem and the officials give you the calls, especially if the coach* is considered a genius*. Other benefits include getting players like Randy Moss on the cheap. When you win players want to play for you. Cheating has been a wonderful escalation of benefits for Belicheat*, Kraft* (that is why he signed Belicheat* to a long term extension during the scandal!), Brady*, the whole team*, and all NE* fans*. The fans* only have to deal with a little bit of annoyance from some disgruntled fans of other teams. As I've said before in NE where I live it is not considered polite to even talk about Belicheat's* cheating publicly. A few posters have suggested Tim Graham write an article for ESPN about the aftermath of Spygate. THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. HE WOULD NOT EVEN REFERENCE IT EXCEPT TO DISMISS IT.

 

But to Patsie* fans out there I will repeat my point. Do you respect Belicheat*'s football intelligence or don't you? If he* said we are going to cheat* (videotaping, miking, turning off mics in opponent's helmets, illegal playing and practicing of players, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.) to help us win THEN GIVE HIM CREDIT, HE, BELICHEAT*, the master cheater*, thought cheating would help him win. Are you going to argue with him* or give him* credit that he* knew what he was doing. He is the genius* not you or I and he knows what is necessary for HIM* to win.

[Mr. WEO]

Does anyone that follows the NFL think Roger Goodell is STUPID? I certainly don't. I think he is VERY intelligent, which begs the question...........why did he DESTROY the EVIDENCE of the Pats CHEATING? If it were minor & inconsequential as the league would like us to believe, the NFL would have been better served letting the WORLD see that. In my mind Goodell destroyed the evidence for one reason, a VERY GOOD reason...................for the GOOD of the NFL, to preserve the integrity of the league. It is much better for the NFL that people THINK the Pats* wins are due to their CHEATING than for everyone to KNOW for a fact that is the case.

Here is the poster boy for this point of view. His post nicely sums up the entire "thought" process of this group.

 

It has the conniving and sinister commisioner hiding the truth form "the world", it has the requisite "to preserve the integrity of the league" nonsense and it has this---perhaps the most succinct distillation of this "argument" (and a classic bit of lunacy all in itself):

 

"It is much better for the NFL that people THINK the Pats* wins are due to their CHEATING than for everyone to KNOW for a fact that is the case."

[Mr. WEO]

For those who doubt the beneficial officiating NE* and Belicheat* get please don't miss the opening Monday night 2009 game. You won't have any doubts after that. That is only one benefit of Belciheat'*s cheating. When you win you gain esteem and the officials give you the calls, especially if the coach* is considered a genius*. Other benefits include getting players like Randy Moss on the cheap. When you win players want to play for you. Cheating has been a wonderful escalation of benefits for Belicheat*, Kraft* (that is why he signed Belicheat* to a long term extension during the scandal!), Brady*, the whole team*, and all NE* fans*. The fans* only have to deal with a little bit of annoyance from some disgruntled fans of other teams. As I've said before in NE where I live it is not considered polite to even talk about Belicheat's* cheating publicly. A few posters have suggested Tim Graham write an article for ESPN about the aftermath of Spygate. THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. HE WOULD NOT EVEN REFERENCE IT EXCEPT TO DISMISS IT.

 

But to Patsie* fans out there I will repeat my point. Do you respect Belicheat*'s football intelligence or don't you? If he* said we are going to cheat* (videotaping, miking, turning off mics in opponent's helmets, illegal playing and practicing of players, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.) to help us win THEN GIVE HIM CREDIT, HE, BELICHEAT*, the master cheater*, thought cheating would help him win. Are you going to argue with him* or give him* credit that he* knew what he was doing. He is the genius* not you or I and he knows what is necessary for HIM* to win.

Wait, i've changed my mind--this guy needs to be their leader.

 

wow.

[4thand1]

Check the NYT article I linked to numerous posts above, for ex. The Steelers-Pats game was the 2004 season AFC Championship game.....

 

The committee heard accusations that the Patriots had taped opposing coaches’ signals, placed microphones on defensive players to steal quarterbacks’ audible signals and manipulated clocks and coach-to-quarterback radio systems.

 

The league has handled the complaints internally, finding no proof for all but one, which was lodged by the Jets last year, said its chief spokesman, Greg Aiello. In the Jets case last fall, when the Patriots were caught using video cameras to film defensive signals, the team and its coach, Bill Belichick, were fined, and the team forfeited a first-round draft pick. Since then, a former team employee has sent the league videotapes containing evidence of similar spying dating to 2000.

 

Okay, so these complaints were looked into, and found no proof for any of them except the taping against the Jets (and the Patriots were punished for this), and you still are claiming that they did these things?

 

As far as the Steelers game goes, it was such a phantom call that there was no mention of it at all in the game summary. Let me guess, it was one of those phantom calls that really was the correct call, but because it negated a big play and had to do with the Patriots, it was a phantom call. Kind of like the Patriots O-Line getting away with holding on every play, even when they're on the sideline.

[4thand1]

If everyone does it, how come 1 team, not 32 teams were punished?

 

The entire spygate screams of a cover-up. If there's nothing wrong, they why not show everyone? If there's no weed in your room, then why are you blocking the door so your dad can't take a peek?The pats* cheated, plain and simple. It likely played a large role in them barely squeaking out 3 tainted super bowl "victories."

 

To the poster who said the panthers were on 'roids, how come there's no mention to rodney harrison (may he rot in hell) being on HGH? (along with a good chunk of the rest of the pats* D) Every wonder why the pats picked up over-the-hill players and they suddenly found "new life?"

 

Probably because they ignored the memo that was sent out in 2006 warning teams against taping in certain locations. The Patriots blew leads in the 4th quarter of all 3 Super Bowl games, so I fail to see how it played a "large role".

 

I mentioned the Panthers being on steroids because the only time anybody mentions the Panthers in regards to the Patriots is that they were cheated out of that Super Bowl. But yeah, I guess it's okay for the Panthers to break the rules.

 

New life? Like Junior Seau coming back in 2008 and looking downright pathetic at times?

[4thand1]

For those who doubt the beneficial officiating NE* and Belicheat* get please don't miss the opening Monday night 2009 game. You won't have any doubts after that. That is only one benefit of Belciheat'*s cheating. When you win you gain esteem and the officials give you the calls, especially if the coach* is considered a genius*. Other benefits include getting players like Randy Moss on the cheap. When you win players want to play for you. Cheating has been a wonderful escalation of benefits for Belicheat*, Kraft* (that is why he signed Belicheat* to a long term extension during the scandal!), Brady*, the whole team*, and all NE* fans*. The fans* only have to deal with a little bit of annoyance from some disgruntled fans of other teams. As I've said before in NE where I live it is not considered polite to even talk about Belicheat's* cheating publicly. A few posters have suggested Tim Graham write an article for ESPN about the aftermath of Spygate. THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. HE WOULD NOT EVEN REFERENCE IT EXCEPT TO DISMISS IT.

 

But to Patsie* fans out there I will repeat my point. Do you respect Belicheat*'s football intelligence or don't you? If he* said we are going to cheat* (videotaping, miking, turning off mics in opponent's helmets, illegal playing and practicing of players, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.) to help us win THEN GIVE HIM CREDIT, HE, BELICHEAT*, the master cheater*, thought cheating would help him win. Are you going to argue with him* or give him* credit that he* knew what he was doing. He is the genius* not you or I and he knows what is necessary for HIM* to win.

 

You probably should be locked away somewhere.

 

The Bills have lost the last 4 games 56-10, 38-7, 20-10, and 13-0. Are you really complaining about officiating?

 

Randy Moss was considered washed up, he was picked up on the cheap because the Raiders wanted nothing to do with him.

 

Miking, turning off mics in opponents helmets? Sounds like some of the stuff from Matt's link. You know, the accusations that had no proof.

[Lori]

Welcome to the Board, Pats fan. I say "Pats fan" since you joined yesterday and have a seemingly well-researched/rehearsed line on why it was all no big deal.

I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but the Panthers/steroids reference cinched it. Good call.

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

The committee heard accusations that the Patriots had taped opposing coaches’ signals, placed microphones on defensive players to steal quarterbacks’ audible signals and manipulated clocks and coach-to-quarterback radio systems.

 

The league has handled the complaints internally, finding no proof for all but one, which was lodged by the Jets last year, said its chief spokesman, Greg Aiello. In the Jets case last fall, when the Patriots were caught using video cameras to film defensive signals, the team and its coach, Bill Belichick, were fined, and the team forfeited a first-round draft pick. Since then, a former team employee has sent the league videotapes containing evidence of similar spying dating to 2000.

 

Okay, so these complaints were looked into, and found no proof for any of them except the taping against the Jets (and the Patriots were punished for this), and you still are claiming that they did these things?

 

As far as the Steelers game goes, it was such a phantom call that there was no mention of it at all in the game summary. Let me guess, it was one of those phantom calls that really was the correct call, but because it negated a big play and had to do with the Patriots, it was a phantom call.

 

Thanks for this amusing take on the situation. The NFL finds no "proof" on anything except the single Jets accusation. If I was ever accused of a crime I would want the NFL to be the DA and police dept. investigating my case. Then a single former employee after that coughs up illegal tapes going back to 2000!!!!!!!! So much for the efficacy of the NFL's ability to investigate. Also, if the single game proof led to a forfeit of a #1 choice and fines how come 8 more years of violations led to nothing further!!!!

 

I sill think the Senator Arlen Specter report is a lot more valuable than anything the NFL has ever released. Oh but I guess that doesn't count since Specter is not a Patsie* fan, doesn't get paid by the NFL, or make his income by covering the NFL.

 

I still don't get Patsie* fans claiming Belcheat* was an idiot to have cheated since he* didn't need to cheat to win. Don't you think Belicheat* himself*is the best judge of what he needed to do to win? Give credit where credit is due. He* knew what he was doing when he cheated in so many different ways.

[VOR]

I guess we've exposed who the Patriots fans and who the intelligent fans, are.

[4thand1]

Thanks for this amusing take on the situation. The NFL finds no "proof" on anything except the single Jets accusation. If I was ever accused of a crime I would want the NFL to be the DA and police dept. investigating my case. Then a single former employee after that coughs up illegal tapes going back to 2000!!!!!!!! So much for the efficacy of the NFL's ability to investigate. Also, if the single game proof led to a forfeit of a #1 choice and fines how come 8 more years of violations led to nothing further!!!!

 

I sill think the Senator Arlen Specter report is a lot more valuable than anything the NFL has ever released. Oh but I guess that doesn't count since Specter is not a Patsie* fan, doesn't get paid by the NFL, or make his income by covering the NFL.

 

I still don't get Patsie* fans claiming Belcheat* was an idiot to have cheated since he* didn't need to cheat to win. Don't you think Belicheat* himself*is the best judge of what he needed to do to win? Give credit where credit is due. He* knew what he was doing when he cheated in so many different ways.

 

And yet, other NFL organizations seemed satisfied with the investigation.

 

Specter isn't a Patriots fan, he is an Eagles fan, though.

 

You left out two more *'s on the last two "he's"

[MattM]

And yet, other NFL organizations seemed satisfied with the investigation.

 

Specter isn't a Patriots fan, he is an Eagles fan, though.

 

You left out two more *'s on the last two "he's"

 

So, who are you going to root for when the Pats* start to suck again and you're hopping off that bandwagon? I'm guessing you'll go back to being a Cowpokes fan myself......