oddoublee Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 so I am supposed to feel better bc they are smart, they say they like challenges, and they are not the same players as last year? offseason fluff. i love my bills....but I am still worried about this line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 That's the end of my excerpts, so now back to me, Thurman#1. Obviously, there is a lot of room for negativity in there. But maybe, just maybe, the best approach is neither yours here, Todd, nor mine here. The best approach might NOT be to isolate all the most optimistic bits of the article, and there are also huge limitations to isolating all the most pessimistic bits of the article. Perhaps, the best thing might be to go and read the original article here: http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afceast/0-9-5/R...e-overhaul.html ... and try to digest the whole thing. It's a terrific article, very balanced, pointing out opportunities and potential problems for the o-line this year. Both optimism and pessimism, when absolutely pure and unmixed, are essentially extremely unrealistic worldviews. How about reading the whole article and understanding that it is balanced and reasonable and that that is a pretty good place to start when looking at the Bills o-line situation this year. And every year. It's ironic that stating a fact like every position on the OL has a new starter penciled in (including TE) or Hangartner was a utility backup in Carolina is "pessimistic" while stating some other fact like Hangartner tested extremely well on his Wonderlic or he's played several different positions (which can also be stated as he was a utility backup, or a player that the Raiders kept trying to replace, or a rookie or young player being moved to a new position out of necessity) distinguishes someone as "optimistic". If there truly was no cause for any concern then there would be no reason to start yet another thread that cherry-picks a few scant subjective arguments like "they all finish blocks" and "are smart guys". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoner7 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Smart tough strong athletic guys are better than the soft, dumb, fat and lazy. We should see improvement and C and one G spot. I have no doubt that the interior 3 will be better at the end of 09 than the 3 we had at the end of 08. Just from watching Butler at G for a couple seasons, I think he will be able to play at a level similar to Walkers of years past. My only ? which Im sure you all share is Walker at LT. I predict we may see Chambers stepping in at times -- ie during the no huddle -- because I feel he is a better pass blocker. If you remember early last season Walker went out during a game (maybe pre season) with a forearm injury as one of our RBs was chipping on the edge rusher and clipped Walkers arm. Having a back help on the DE is a sign that the coaches dont trust him enough on an island, trust the demised Peters did receive from the coaches. However, if our other 4 positions as a whole are better, allowing the coaching staff to give extra help to a weak spot -- say Walker on the left side -- our line as a unit should be better than last seasons. Remember, great pass protection can make an average QB look great, but even the Jim Kellys of the world look like sh*t on their back. Trents success will be based on the line and Trents trust in the line more than his own play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 The Bills' O-Line will struggle mightily this year. There are far too many shifts/changes to expect things to go smoothly. The Bills' FO has to take some precautionary steps to solidify that area by signing either Jonas Jennings or Levi Jones. Both will come cheap and can be had easily. I'd also like to add the fact that neither one of these guys should expect to be named a starter without first having to prove themselves to be healthy and talented enough at this point in their respective careers to actually land a starting gig. What this means is Buffalo can still attempt to pull off their off-season strategy for the O-Line without having any pressure to start one of these two guys at LT. If all else fails and the plan doesn't work, Walker can always go back to RT, Butler can be moved back to G if Wood isn't ready to play RG, and Levi/Jonas can start at LT. Under this scenario, the Bills have many more options that can help them put together the pieces of the puzzle much faster. If we don't sign one of these aforementioned LT's, then the Bills can find themselves in a horrible position if both of our tackles struggle at their new positions and/or injury strikes. Here's an example, what would happen if LW is getting abused at LT and Brad Butler gets injured for an extended amount of games? Currently, our first guy off the bench is Chambers, he'd most likely take over LW's spot at LT and LW will be moved back to RT. I don't like this move because I don't like Chambers' game. He is limited at best and I don't think he can ever be more than a swing tackle/occasional replacement kind of guy, but for arguments' sake, let's say that happens. The question now is, who's gonna give our tackles a rest during games? Demitrious Bell? He's just not quite ready yet. The fact is, we have no one else to handle that job. To sum it all up, the Bills need to sign Jones or Jennings, ASAP. Think of it as an expensive insurance policy with potential upside. If these guys can stay healthy, and they already proved they have the talent to play at a high level in this league. IMO, signing a back-up tackle at this point of the off-season is far more important than bringing in whatever else remains in free agency at OLB to replace Ellison. At the very least, Ellison starting won't lead to our starting QB getting injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 1. Talk is cheap - what athlete says he's not ready- really can't think of one, everyone of these guys think they are ready from the MMA guy who's going to summit 30 seconds into his match to the softball team about to be down 30 to 0 by the fifth inning. looking at this for hope and despair Hope- guards have a good history of being productive as rookies- I'm 99.99% sure that Hangartner will be an improvement over Fowler. Despair- Walker is in no way a prototype of a LT except for having long arms, if he loses 40+ lbs I might reconsider. I have even less faith in Butler moving to RT, he seems both stiff, and lacking in power. The line in general with no one being in the same position, one can only wonder what Oline cohesion will be like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddgurley Posted July 3, 2009 Author Share Posted July 3, 2009 1. Talk is cheap - what athlete says he's not ready- really can't think of one, everyone of these guys think they are ready from the MMA guy who's going to summit 30 seconds into his match to the softball team about to be down 30 to 0 by the fifth inning. looking at this for hope and despair Hope- guards have a good history of being productive as rookies- I'm 99.99% sure that Hangartner will be an improvement over Fowler. Despair- Walker is in no way a prototype of a LT except for having long arms, if he loses 40+ lbs I might reconsider. I have even less faith in Butler moving to RT, he seems both stiff, and lacking in power. The line in general with no one being in the same position, one can only wonder what Oline cohesion will be like. I have more faith in Butler than walker. Even though I hope both do well. Butler was a tackle in college, has started 30 games at the position, and he is 6'6 (which is a good size for tackles) but time will tell- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I have more faith in Butler than walker. Even though I hope both do well. Butler was a tackle in college, has started 30 games at the position, and he is 6'6 (which is a good size for tackles) but time will tell- It's remarkable that fans fall back on Butler having played RT at Virginia. The difference between the college and pro game is so great, that experience playing OT in college has almost no bearing on how he'll fare in the pros. We're not talking about playing BC, Miami (FL), and Duke here, it's NE, NYJ, and MIA among others. All NFL OT's have size, but the ones who have mobility are those who start. If Butler had so much upside as an OT, it stands to reason he'd have started in the NFL as one. No matter what anyone says, the Bills already know they'll need to routinely keep TE's in to help Walker and/or Butler in pass protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 It's remarkable that fans fall back on Butler having played RT at Virginia. The difference between the college and pro game is so great, that experience playing OT in college has almost no bearing on how he'll fare in the pros. We're not talking about playing BC, Miami (FL), and Duke here, it's NE, NYJ, and MIA among others. All NFL OT's have size, but the ones who have mobility are those who start. If Butler had so much upside as an OT, it stands to reason he'd have started in the NFL as one. No matter what anyone says, the Bills already know they'll need to routinely keep TE's in to help Walker and/or Butler in pass protection. The fact is a good number of college players are switched initially from tackle to guard when they are rookies in the NFL then are switched back to tackle. Butler has the physical tools to play tackle in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Now I now they lack experience, but there is only 1 way to gain that-and that with PLAYING TIME, and we do technically have 5 pre-season games counting the HOF game. Now I read an article on this message board saying they were way behind and they would not start (chambers and McKinney would start) you're assuming DJ will give them enough playing time during the preseason to gain that experience and for the line to work together which is something he has not done in the past the article about the rookies not lining up as starters is absolutely meaningless, it was written in freakin June...if they're not starting the 3rd preseason game then its something to worry about but not lining up as starters before training camp even begins doesnt mean a thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans4e64 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 The fact is a good number of college players are switched initially from tackle to guard when they are rookies in the NFL then are switched back to tackle. Butler has the physical tools to play tackle in the NFL. Really? Because I think the #1 factor in being an OT who is out on an island in the NFL is mobility, and Butler doesn't have an ounce of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Really? Because I think the #1 factor in being an OT who is out on an island in the NFL is mobility, and Butler doesn't have an ounce of it. which puts him a couple steps ahead of Walker which is why we'll be seeing almost constant 2 TE lineups Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 which puts him a couple steps ahead of Walker which is why we'll be seeing almost constant 2 TE lineups Well, not putting the lead back out there wouldn't be all bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DazedandConfused Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I'm not worried about Hangartner in the slightest. People also have to realize that TO helps the lineman because teams wont be comfortable putting eight men in the box. With TO and Evans out there look for LB's to be used in coverage so they can double team either TO and/or Evans. JMO This a bog reason why I hope that we can go with a 3WR base O. This would help the OL immeasurably as opponents would be forced to go to the nickel and take a passrushing LB or DE off the field to simply cover the WRs. In particular I hope that Parrish proves to be consistent enough as his scary speed and open field running demonstrated in his punt returns forces the opposing D to put a fast good cover guy on Parrish. This in turn means that Evans is facing a slower guy, TO a lesser cover guy or vice/vice/versa and putting sackmasters or running complicated stunts (again particularly against a no huddle giving the opponent little time to plan or call complex Ds, I think the Bills are loaded up quite nicely (IF) the Turk is up to the task. We will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 It's ironic that stating a fact like every position on the OL has a new starter penciled in (including TE) or Hangartner was a utility backup in Carolina is "pessimistic" while stating some other fact like Hangartner tested extremely well on his Wonderlic or he's played several different positions (which can also be stated as he was a utility backup, or a player that the Raiders kept trying to replace, or a rookie or young player being moved to a new position out of necessity) distinguishes someone as "optimistic". If there truly was no cause for any concern then there would be no reason to start yet another thread that cherry-picks a few scant subjective arguments like "they all finish blocks" and "are smart guys". I hear ya. And obviously, there IS cause for concern. And for optimism. As usual, we don't really know how this is going to work out, though it is a pretty good bet that the beginning of the year will look pretty ragged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Smart tough strong athletic guys are better than the soft, dumb, fat and lazy. Really? Excellent!! Because I'm smart, tough strong and athletic. I mean, granted I'm in my forties and weigh around 180, but I'm awesomely conditioned!! There are no soft, dumb, fat, lazy guys on NFL rosters. There really aren't. You "have no doubt" that our interior will be better? With two rookies? There is just no way to be sure of that. If you have faith, hey, more power to you, but that's what it is, faith and hope. I hope so too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 The fact is a good number of college players are switched initially from tackle to guard when they are rookies in the NFL then are switched back to tackle. Butler has the physical tools to play tackle in the NFL. Yup, that is a fact. It is also a fact that for many, one or both of those switches turn out to be failures. I do have more belief in Butler than Walker, largely because RTs can get by without the extreme athleticism demanded on the left side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans4e64 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 which puts him a couple steps ahead of Walker which is why we'll be seeing almost constant 2 TE lineups Walker has more lateral agility than Butler does. Just because he looks like he's octo-dad doesn't mean he's not mobile. Sam Adams and Pat Williams were some of the quickest guys I've seen. I'm not saying Walker is mobile, because he's not, but he is more mobile than Butler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I hear ya. And obviously, there IS cause for concern. And for optimism. That seems hard for many to comprehend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 The fact is a good number of college players are switched initially from tackle to guard when they are rookies in the NFL then are switched back to tackle. Butler has the physical tools to play tackle in the NFL. I'm aware many college OT's without the measureables make the conversion from T to G. I'm not aware of any who go from OT to OG and back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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