Why did we release Dockery?

[billsfan89]

The problem is the growing pains may take more then this season and with this being DJ make or break it year there's no telling what the new HC wants to do in 2010. Hopefully he'll shift Walker back to RT, and let Levetra and Wood develop. THe C from Carolina remains a question mark as thus far is just another name and fits the pattern of free agents gone wrong in the past ie signing spot starters/primarily backup players to be starters here, see Larry Tripplett, Robert Royal, Melvin Fowler and Matt Bowen as recent failures. Also it doesn't bode well for Trent Edwards, who has shown me to be half way decent but not sure he can taking the pounding of an experienced O-line in front of him and again no telling what a new HC would do.

 

Well I think that if the organization stays the course with the Wood, Levitre, Hangardner, and Butler I think that those guys could develop into a good unit down the line. If you give them a year to gel by next season they might become a solid unit that will only get better.

 

It takes two to three years for a line to develop into a great unit. I think by the end of this season we will see the potential of the unit and by the end of next season they will be good. You have to start somewhere and I would hate to see the line be broken up because they might play a little poorly at first. To me if I am Ralph I say keep those 4 in place for the next 2 years and see if they can gel.

 

As far as Hangardner goes he was a back up but over the last 4 years he started 56% of the games on the Carolina offensive line so its not like he was just a bench cast off we brought in. I think that he is a notch above the usual back up we usually bring in.

[Sisyphean Bills]

No disagreement with the perceived value of Dockery by the Bills.

 

From what I read here, here, and here, DD visited Detroit on Friday, 2/27, the day after the Bills released him, and he ended up deciding to go back to the Skins.

 

What is not clear is how aggressive the Bills FO were in trying to trade him before 2pm on 2/26.

Thanks for all the links. I had a recollection of hearing that the Bills had arranged for Dockery to fly to Detroit for the physical -- I think I heard that on NFL Network. You are correct that he was in Detroit the same day he hit the waiver wire because the Bills essentially released him by not paying him the roster bonus by Friday and by not filing the trade paperwork by 4pm. My bad on that order of the timeline. But, it's pretty clear from the overall timeline of events that "strangest 24 hours" is a kid glove euphemism for the Bills front office's major bungling of an opportunity. My objection to your original post was your attempt to absolve the Bills of any blame by claiming Detroit was in some way tardy and it was the Lions that blew it. One of the articles you linked said that Detroit had agreed in principle on Thursday. I recall also hearing it explained that Detroit officials thought the deal was done with Dockery and were caught off guard to find it wasn't and tried to get him to stay at their facilities and even desperately offered to sweetened the pot a bit to try and close a deal. But, he bolted to Washington. I never read anything that said that Detroit, dysfunctional team that it is, was the team that failed to fax in its trade paperwork. Indeed, it fits the overall mosaic perfectly. The Bills have a group of decision makers, so when something comes down to the wire and needs an urgent decision, they have the extra step of arranging a meeting for a straw poll, and if some of the inner circle is taking a nap or in the head...

[VOR]

Thanks for all the links. I had a recollection of hearing that the Bills had arranged for Dockery to fly to Detroit for the physical -- I think I heard that on NFL Network. You are correct that he was in Detroit the same day he hit the waiver wire because the Bills essentially released him by not paying him the roster bonus by Friday and by not filing the trade paperwork by 4pm. My bad on that order of the timeline. But, it's pretty clear from the overall timeline of events that "strangest 24 hours" is a kid glove euphemism for the Bills front office's major bungling of an opportunity. My objection to your original post was your attempt to absolve the Bills of any blame by claiming Detroit was in some way tardy and it was the Lions that blew it. One of the articles you linked said that Detroit had agreed in principle on Thursday. I recall also hearing it explained that Detroit officials thought the deal was done with Dockery and were caught off guard to find it wasn't and tried to get him to stay at their facilities and even desperately offered to sweetened the pot a bit to try and close a deal. But, he bolted to Washington. I never read anything that said that Detroit, dysfunctional team that it is, was the team that failed to fax in its trade paperwork. Indeed, it fits the overall mosaic perfectly. The Bills have a group of decision makers, so when something comes down to the wire and needs an urgent decision, they have the extra step of arranging a meeting for a straw poll, and if some of the inner circle is taking a nap or in the head...

Um, no. The Lions offered a 2010 7th rounder that was conditional on Dockery's playing time. Hardly an "opportunity." And by the time the Lions came back with a real offer, it was too late. And Dockery's agent said that the Bills weren't at fault for the trade not going through.

 

But don't worry. The Lions will probably send the Bills a higher pick than the 7th rounder, when Dockery plays like a chump for the Skins.

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

The sad part about any of this is that most people (myself included) assume that the Bills FO could have screwed this up. It would be par for the course. You get the feeling that Brandon (smart as he might be) is learning on the job and Modrak basically said that about Brandon when it came to Brandon's understanding of football talent. And then Perry and Turk are both learning on the job and we can only hope Jauron is learning on the job after all these years as a HC.

 

It was not always like this. Look at the 3 way deal that sent Cornelius Bennett to the Bills and really put them on the road to the SB. On the positive side the TO deal was a big step in the right direction. I think the Bills will be proven to have scored big on that deal and thus far TO has been everything we could have hoped for attitude wise and on the field.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Um, no. The Lions offered a 2010 7th rounder that was conditional on Dockery's playing time. Hardly an "opportunity." And by the time the Lions came back with a real offer, it was too late. And Dockery's agent said that the Bills weren't at fault for the trade not going through.

 

But don't worry. The Lions will probably send the Bills a higher pick than the 7th rounder, when Dockery plays like a chump for the Skins.

Don't worry, the Bills won a playoff game in 1995.

 

Even a 7th rounder is more than nothing. Which is what the mighty Bills scored. Oh, except for the all important "we're further under the cap than you are ... na na nah" competition. The trophy for that is shaped like a toilet plunger.

[Sisyphean Bills]

The sad part about any of this is that most people (myself included) assume that the Bills FO could have screwed this up. It would be par for the course. You get the feeling that Brandon (smart as he might be) is learning on the job and Modrak basically said that about Brandon when it came to Brandon's understanding of football talent. And then Perry and Turk are both learning on the job and we can only hope Jauron is learning on the job after all these years as a HC.

 

It was not always like this. Look at the 3 way deal that sent Cornelius Bennett to the Bills and really put them on the road to the SB. On the positive side the TO deal was a big step in the right direction. I think the Bills will be proven to have scored big on that deal and thus far TO has been everything we could have hoped for attitude wise and on the field.

Here's a simple fact to consider: an NFL team can't just go up to a player for another team and start discussing working out a trade. That's called tampering and verboten.

 

So, if we are going to pretend the Bills front office had nothing to do with the way this went down, then who do you point the finger at? The Lions for not getting the ball rolling earlier with some tampering? Dockery for being way overvalued for his talent level and taking a ridiculous contract? Unless it was Pres. Obama's fault , we have eliminated everybody else.

[VOR]

Don't worry, the Bills won a playoff game in 1995.

Good point. I'm sure that conditional 7th rounder in 2010 would have been the difference.

[The Dean]

The sad part about any of this is that most people (myself included) assume that the Bills FO could have screwed this up. It would be par for the course. You get the feeling that Brandon (smart as he might be) is learning on the job and Modrak basically said that about Brandon when it came to Brandon's understanding of football talent.

 

 

I agree Brandon is learning on the job, and many here would find it easy to believe he screwed something up (of course some here think everything the Bills do is stupid by default).

 

But Brandon doesn't operate in a vacuum and the FO is still very much a team effort, from what I have been told. Brandon may lack football savvy, but the organization isn't without it. Why would anyone believe Brandon goes and makes complicated football decisions without involving his most experienced colleagues?

[Sisyphean Bills]

Good point. I'm sure that conditional 7th rounder in 2010 would have been the difference.

If you are going to insist that was the actual offer, could you provide the link?

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

Thanks for all the links. I had a recollection of hearing that the Bills had arranged for Dockery to fly to Detroit for the physical -- I think I heard that on NFL Network. You are correct that he was in Detroit the same day he hit the waiver wire because the Bills essentially released him by not paying him the roster bonus by Friday and by not filing the trade paperwork by 4pm. My bad on that order of the timeline. But, it's pretty clear from the overall timeline of events that "strangest 24 hours" is a kid glove euphemism for the Bills front office's major bungling of an opportunity. My objection to your original post was your attempt to absolve the Bills of any blame by claiming Detroit was in some way tardy and it was the Lions that blew it. One of the articles you linked said that Detroit had agreed in principle on Thursday. I recall also hearing it explained that Detroit officials thought the deal was done with Dockery and were caught off guard to find it wasn't and tried to get him to stay at their facilities and even desperately offered to sweetened the pot a bit to try and close a deal. But, he bolted to Washington. I never read anything that said that Detroit, dysfunctional team that it is, was the team that failed to fax in its trade paperwork. Indeed, it fits the overall mosaic perfectly. The Bills have a group of decision makers, so when something comes down to the wire and needs an urgent decision, they have the extra step of arranging a meeting for a straw poll, and if some of the inner circle is taking a nap or in the head...

You're welcome.

 

Yes, they agreed in principle on Thursday, but it was too late, and DD wasn't in Detroit the same day as he hit the waiver wire. Nor did they essentially release him; they officially cut him on Thursday, 2/26. He went to Detroit on Friday, after he'd been released, one would assume to try and salvage the deal with the Lions, now that he was a free agent. Apparently Joe Bugel, the 'Skins OL coach, called DD about 60 times, pleading with him to come back to Washington "where he belonged".

 

As I said in my post, the Lions contacted the Bills about DD at 2 pm, and there was no deal by 3:30, so the Bills had no time to file. If the Lions had called like an hour earlier, DD might have been signed.

 

I stand by my original (and others like Mark Gaughan) argument that the Bills FO did not blow this opportunity with the Lions.

 

I ask you what, given the circumstances, OBD could have done differently, other than aggressively trying to trade DD well before midnight on 2/26? The problem is that we don't know if they did or not. If the Bills knew he wasn't performing up to snuff, the chances are the rest of the league also watched his film, and there were no takers.

[Sisyphean Bills]

You're welcome.

 

Yes, they agreed in principle on Thursday, but it was too late, and DD wasn't in Detroit the same day as he hit the waiver wire. Nor did they essentially release him; they officially cut him on Thursday, 2/26. He went to Detroit on Friday, after he'd been released, one would assume to try and salvage the deal with the Lions, now that he was a free agent. Apparently Joe Bugel, the 'Skins OL coach, called DD about 60 times, pleading with him to come back to Washington "where he belonged".

 

As I said in my post, the Lions contacted the Bills about DD at 2 pm, and there was no deal by 3:30, so the Bills had no time to file. If the Lions had called like an hour earlier, DD might have been signed.

 

I stand by my original (and others like Mark Gaughan) argument that the Bills FO did not blow this opportunity with the Lions.

 

I ask you what, given the circumstances, OBD could have done differently, other than aggressively trying to trade DD well before midnight on 2/26? The problem is that we don't know if they did or not. If the Bills knew he wasn't performing up to snuff, the chances are the rest of the league also watched his film, and there were no takers.

2:00pm and 3:30pm (I don't care which one you want to use) are before 4:00pm. Thus, your assertion that the Bills had "no time to file" is patently false.

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

2:00pm and 3:30pm (I don't care which one you want to use) are before 4:00pm. Thus, your assertion that the Bills had "no time to file" is patently false.

I've done a lot of business contracts in my career, and I have no clue what the NFL requires to push back a bonus payment, but I assume it's more than a page or two, as it involves millions of dollars and lots of lawyers...

 

According to Mark Gaughan:

By the time the Bills and Lions finally came to an agreement on what they would deal in return for Dockery - it was a seventh-round pick in 2010 - it was within minutes of the 4 p.m. deadline...

 

All I know is this; the Bills could have gotten a trade with a 7th round pick from the Lions, and likely significant other financial incentives, and they determined there wasn't enough time to file the necessary paperwork. Instead they got nothing by waiving him, so, unless there's some serious brain damage at OBD (and it sounds like you're on that page), they made the only choice available to them at the time.

[JohnC]

Why did we sign him in the first place?

 

We dumped him because he has no speed to pull and lead block

 

He didn't have speed to pull and lead block when he was originially signed for a very lucrative contract. Losing organizations have a tendency to make an excessive number of dumb decisions.

[spartacus]

The facts are that the Bills were planning to release DD on 2/26 outright because he was due a $1.75M bonus at 12:01 am the next day, and the Lions contacted the Bills front office at 2pm that day, just two hours before they would have had to file paperwork with the league at 4 pm, that would have pushed back his bonus in order to make the deal possible.

 

There was no deal as of 3:30 pm and therefore no way to get the paperwork filed in time. IMO, DD probably wouldn't have agreed, since he would be a free agent that could sign with any team.

 

There was no botching of paperwork; there simply wasn't enough time to get it done based on how it went down.

 

so maybe the Bills should have changed how it went done.

 

Instead of making a knee jerk reaction to cut Dockery the day before his bonus was due, maybe they could have shopped him in the off-season.

 

since a big reason they cut him loose was to free up his salary and cap room to make an offer to Peters, it would have been prudent to get Peters under contract BEFORE cutting Dockery loose.

 

Since they are still millions under the cap, maybe they should have paid the bonus, and worked a deal thru the draft.

[Sisyphean Bills]

According to Mark Gaughan:

Thanks for this link. That definitely clarifies what you were talking about above as well as new information I hadn't seen before.

so maybe the Bills should have changed how it went done.

 

Instead of making a knee jerk reaction to cut Dockery the day before his bonus was due, maybe they could have shopped him in the off-season.

 

since a big reason they cut him loose was to free up his salary and cap room to make an offer to Peters, it would have been prudent to get Peters under contract BEFORE cutting Dockery loose.

 

Since they are still millions under the cap, maybe they should have paid the bonus, and worked a deal thru the draft.

Yeah, that was more of my original point as well. I mean how often do you see NFL teams cut a player in the middle of a trade negotiation because the paperwork wasn't/couldn't be filed? While we could rationalize it by saying Dockery wasn't worth much anyway, there was clearly sincere interest in him from more than one other team. The situation just smacks of amateurism. If teams can be organized enough to work out trades on draft day in the minutes they are on the clock, then it stands to some reason the Lions and Bills could've made this deal happen. Both clubs failed in this case to make their rosters better -- the Bills got no compensation and the Lions didn't get a player of interest because he decided to go to a better team he was more familiar with.

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

so maybe the Bills should have changed how it went done.

 

Instead of making a knee jerk reaction to cut Dockery the day before his bonus was due, maybe they could have shopped him in the off-season.

 

since a big reason they cut him loose was to free up his salary and cap room to make an offer to Peters, it would have been prudent to get Peters under contract BEFORE cutting Dockery loose.

 

Since they are still millions under the cap, maybe they should have paid the bonus, and worked a deal thru the draft.

You're making a lot of assumptions that (maybe) aren't necessarily true.

 

Knee jerk reaction? There's no evidence of that. Only that they wanted to avoid paying the bonus he was due. We have no information about when the Bills FO made the decision to cut him, or what effort was made to trade him.

 

I don't believe Peters' contract demands and Dockery's situation were that interrelated. Dockery's performance was very poor in the eyes of the coaching staff and he was going to be traded or released regardless of what happened to Jason Peters. Moreover, in February, who knows how the JP situation was going to play out?

 

I'm no GM, or sports agent, nor do I claim to know how they do their job, but as a business person, it doesn't make sense to cut a big check to someone in the hopes of moving him later. You try to trade the player, and if unsuccessful, you release him and move on.

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

Thanks for this link. That definitely clarifies what you were talking about above as well as new information I hadn't seen before.

 

Yeah, that was more of my original point as well. I mean how often do you see NFL teams cut a player in the middle of a trade negotiation because the paperwork wasn't/couldn't be filed? While we could rationalize it by saying Dockery wasn't worth much anyway, there was clearly sincere interest in him from more than one other team. The situation just smacks of amateurism. If teams can be organized enough to work out trades on draft day in the minutes they are on the clock, then it stands to some reason the Lions and Bills could've made this deal happen. Both clubs failed in this case to make their rosters better -- the Bills got no compensation and the Lions didn't get a player of interest because he decided to go to a better team he was more familiar with.

you're welcome again

 

and you're right again, this almost never happens.

 

but think about it another way...

 

The draft has evolved into a high-energy marketplace, where lots of things can happen in a short time. Draft picks can be easily traded and players can dealt to other teams while the clock ticks. The teams practice and strategize to the nth degree and have 'all their ducks lined up', so to speak. All the people that need to be there...are there. There's not a lot of requirements involved, since the NFL doesn't want to shut off an exciting, last second deal on national tv just because team A didn't get form Z signed before the clock expired. I'm guessing the team's word is taken in 99% of the transactions, with any and all paperwork filed after the fact.

 

The bonus payment system and changes to long term contracts aren't designed to allow for lots of quick mods, and there's gotta be tons of bureaucracy and signatures involved.

 

So the idea that a FO that can wheel and deal within seconds on draft day might be the same as crossing all the Ts and dotting all the Is in order to allow the Bills to delay a $1.75M payment is like apples and oranges.

 

A really good question is whether the Bills and 'Skins ever talked about a trade for DD?

[Sisyphean Bills]

you're welcome again

 

and you're right again, this almost never happens.

 

but think about it another way...

 

The draft has evolved into a high-energy marketplace, where lots of things can happen in a short time. Draft picks can be easily traded and players can dealt to other teams while the clock ticks. The teams practice and strategize to the nth degree and have 'all their ducks lined up', so to speak. All the people that need to be there...are there. There's not a lot of requirements involved, since the NFL doesn't want to shut off an exciting, last second deal on national tv just because team A didn't get form Z signed before the clock expired. I'm guessing the team's word is taken in 99% of the transactions, with any and all paperwork filed after the fact.

 

The bonus payment system and changes to long term contracts aren't designed to allow for lots of quick mods, and there's gotta be tons of bureaucracy and signatures involved.

 

So the idea that a FO that can wheel and deal within seconds on draft day might be the same as crossing all the Ts and dotting all the Is in order to allow the Bills to delay a $1.75M payment is like apples and oranges.

 

A really good question is whether the Bills and 'Skins ever talked about a trade for DD?

During the draft, teams do have to put in trade agreement "paperwork" with the league -- the league has to verify that the deal is legit, etc. In fact, if the league says that the trade wasn't filed in time, the next team in the order can take the pick ahead of the teams making the deal. I agree that the process is streamlined, well understood, and certainly people aren't napping, doing beer bongs, or playing bridge in the spare conference room. I think you are overselling the idea that filing paperwork for the intention to trade involves battalions of lawyers and the faxing of reams of papers to, fro and yon. The league has to know what the contracts involved are, but I'd bet they already have it on file and certainly the Bills would have it and not have to draft a new one from recall. (just kidding, btw)

 

The funky bit from Gaughan's blog is that the Bills never filed anything in regards to extending the deadline 5 more days on Dockery. Why? Dockery got on the plane and went to Detroit for the physical, so it doesn't make sense that he had nixed the deal beforehand -- unless he just likes getting on planes and flying around to kill time. And like you asked, did the Bills really shop Dock? Were they aware the Redskins were very interested? The fact that they didn't even begin the process to slide the deadline, knew it was fast approaching, and then turnaround and use the same deadline as their defense for not making a deal seems like fancy tap dancing, does it not? Again, I guess we could just blow it off completely because the offer on the table was the 7th round pick, but then again the Bills found Bryce Fisher, Jay Riemersma, Tom Nutten and Kurt Schulz in the 7th round -- and those guys were all NFL starters.

 

Another interesting question is how Dock went from being someone the Bills thought so highly of to offer him the richest contract in team history to come to Buffalo, to someone that they apparently felt had essentially no value in just 2 years. Is that not a self-indictment against their own scouting and decision-making? Every team makes mistakes, and nobody should expect total perfection; however, the Bills record these past 9 seasons is exceptional in that the mistakes have consistently outweighed the good decisions (and many of the same people have been there throughout and have even been promoted).

[DazedandConfused]

He didn't have speed to pull and lead block when he was originially signed for a very lucrative contract. Losing organizations have a tendency to make an excessive number of dumb decisions.

In general, I think the lead post in this thread sought to focus on the issue of why not trade Dockery for a very late pick rather than release him rather than looking for comment on his quality (or lack thereof) of his play,

 

I think asking the question this way was an intelligent move as it focused discussion on the technical and timing issues involved with making a trade or cutting a player rather than the (often fact-free) opinions of whether he could lead block or not.

 

However, as this technical question is fairly well answered in this thread so far, I think that the questions regarding opinion on his play are legit and interesting.

 

From my memory of watching the Bills games I do not remember Dockery as being such a horrible liability as a pulling guard. It was not a notable part of his game (but the the ability to pull is not the central element of his skill as a Bill as for example Fowler did demonstrate clearly to me a number of times that actually he was quick and good enough to be a pulling center but this good skill in now way outweighed the fact the team showed zero push up the middle on short yardage.

 

I think you are more correct in identifying the huge contract signed by Dockery as being the root of his disappointment for the FO and the Bills were willing to take a contract hit (writing off his bonus simply as bad money and valuing getting rid of him whether it be by cut or trade before the next bonus payment kicked in which would have them throwing good money after the bad money.

 

My sense of the Bills disappointment with Dockery is not found in his pulling ability but:

 

A. The Bills could not generate much or any push from the interior line on short yardage play. I think like in the loafers but very bright Fowler, disappointing Dockery and likely shifted from D to RT Butler are gone from their interior line positions because of this failure.

B. Separate from his production on the field, my GUESS is that the Bills were willing to give Dockery such a huge contract with the expectation that he would assert himself to be positive leader for the OL (Kent Hull played this role for the best Bills OL ever). On the contrary not only did DD fell to fill this leadership void but as one of the few players who had any substantive contact with Peters during his holdout, rather than be a leader who urged him to play, DD either took his side or simply remained silent.

 

I think the Bills were disappointed that the largest OL in the NFL seemed to fail to throw its weight around and could not even control the middle of the field during crunch time.

 

I think Dockert's fate was sealed as a Bill when at best he failed to be a mouthpiece for management regarding Peters and actually probably took his fellow players side.

 

Despite blocking for 2 plus thousand yard years for Lynch and the run game showing some positives with Fred Jackson and even setting a record for fewest sacks given up by a Bills squad last year, the FO clearly had it out for the entire left side of the OL (gone), their C (gone) and even rearranged the right side of the OL. Given the demonstrable successes mentioned above in this paragraph it seems clearly to be more than simple on field issues which has seen the FO essentially tear out the OL page of the roster and start over.

[VJ91]

Hold on hold on...!

 

This is not about whether he was good or not.

 

I'm asking if anyone knows why we released him instead of trading him.

 

He was not good. I cannot imagine what the Levy-led circle jerks saw in this stiff in the first place. I will give the jerks credit for opening up their wallets and paying him what the market demanded, something they refused to do with Peters. Just our luck they paid the right money to the wrong player, and were forced to eat about 4 or 5 Million against the salary cap.

 

As far as why they could not trade him? Well it appears they refused to accept what teams may have been offering for Dockery and waited too long. When Detroit offered them a late round pick, they were up against the clock for having to pay him a roster bonus, and decided to dump him when the trade failed to go through for whatever reason.