Are too many teams trying to run the 3-4?

[billsfan89]

Last year you had 10 teams running the 3-4 defense this year you add to the list The Green Bay Packers, The Denver Broncos and the Kansas City Chiefs. Even the Arizona Cardinals are thinking about converting to it.

 

The 3-4 seems to be a big trend in the NFL recently and going forward its only getting more popular. The decades two most successful franchises ran the 3-4 (Pats and Steelers combined won 5 of this decades SuperBowls). In our own division we are the only team to not run it. But will teams who run 4-3's be the one who benefit from this trend?

 

In a 3-4 you need to find a NT that is so dominant that he alone can control the Interior of the Line. The more successful 3-4 teams have them (Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, Jammal Williams). You also need bigger MLB's who can absorb the pounding that comes with only having 1 DT in front of you. You also need bigger DE's who can control the outside of the offensive lines and do a good job of pass rushing. You also need freakish athletes at OLB who can be great pass rusher and still defend the run well.

 

All those things are hard to find in the college level because most schools don't run a 3-4 which means that these bigger stronger guys who are hard to find already become harder to find. Long term I hope that the Bills don't switch to the 3-4 its too much of a hassle because there just are too many teams out there looking for these types of guys and there just aren't enough of these guys out there for all of those teams.

 

I think its easier to draft guys for the 4-3 and I think that teams can build effective defenses with it. Simply put more teams looking for 3-4 talent means less teams looking for 4-3 talent.

[silvermike]

For what it's worth, while the Patriots often play a base 3-4, they play plenty of 4-3 and try to throw just about every look imaginable at the offense. They run the ultimate hybrid defense, and that flexibility destroys offensive game planning. It's the secret to their success; but nobody else seems to be able to pull it off.

[Fingon]

In 10 years, everyone will be switching back to the 4-3 after they realize that there isn't enough talent to go around.

[C.Biscuit97]

I would like to think that being the only team in the division playing a 4-3 defense would serve to be a big advantage this season.

[billsfan89]

In 10 years, everyone will be switching back to the 4-3 after they realize that there isn't enough talent to go around.

 

I think there are always going to be 5-7 teams running the 3-4. There is always at least enough talent for 4-5 teams to run it somewhat effectively. Look at the teams last year that ran some form of the 3-4 The Chargers, Pats, Steelers and Dolphins all ran a very effective 3-4 defense. Even the Jets and Cowboys had decent defensive units while running the 3-4. So there is always going to be a decent amount of teams running it.

 

I honestly think that a well run 3-4 with the right personnel can be a very effective defense. Its hard to defend because you can throw a lot of fronts at an offense. And if you get a defensive line that can hold down the defensive line than you free up 4 linebackers to blitz from various directions. Its a good Defense but there is no way the league can support 13 plus teams running it.

 

But there will always be a few teams running it, its too effective with the right personnel for a group of teams to not try it. However 4-3 teams will be the beneficiaries while the 3-4 is over exposed. During the draft teams with the 3-4 will take players that fit there system even if it is a little high (Cheifs pass on Orakpo and Curry to take Tyson Jackson). While the better 4-3 players fall.

[eball]

I would like to think that being the only team in the division playing a 4-3 defense would serve to be a big advantage this season.

One would think. Didn't work out that way a year ago, though.

[billsfan89]

I would like to think that being the only team in the division playing a 4-3 defense would serve to be a big advantage this season.

 

The reason it doesn't work to our advantage is because Most of the teams in our division play at least 8-11 games against 4-3 opponents. So when they face us twice a year its not a look they haven't seen before. Next year if the Pats, Jets, and Fins play a 3-4 heavy schedule than it might work out for us to play a 4-3. But I doubt their schedule only features a hand full of games against a 4-3.

[SuperKillerRobots]

I think there are always going to be 5-7 teams running the 3-4. There is always at least enough talent for 4-5 teams to run it somewhat effectively. Look at the teams last year that ran some form of the 3-4 The Chargers, Pats, Steelers and Dolphins all ran a very effective 3-4 defense. Even the Jets and Cowboys had decent defensive units while running the 3-4. So there is always going to be a decent amount of teams running it.

 

I honestly think that a well run 3-4 with the right personnel can be a very effective defense. Its hard to defend because you can throw a lot of fronts at an offense. And if you get a defensive line that can hold down the defensive line than you free up 4 linebackers to blitz from various directions. Its a good Defense but there is no way the league can support 13 plus teams running it.

 

But there will always be a few teams running it, its too effective with the right personnel for a group of teams to not try it. However 4-3 teams will be the beneficiaries while the 3-4 is over exposed. During the draft teams with the 3-4 will take players that fit there system even if it is a little high (Cheifs pass on Orakpo and Curry to take Tyson Jackson). While the better 4-3 players fall.

 

I think you are pretty much right in saying that 13 team scannot run the 3-4 because there isn't enough personnel to go around. One reason the 3-4 defenses (especially those that we play) look so good is because they have superior talent. When you have that, it doesn't matter what scheme you play.

 

The 3-4 in its current iteration is supposed to be flexible enough to use the same personnel to do pretty much everything, with the exception of needing to add another DB against 3-wide sets. To be able to this, you need players that can do many things well, which is hard to find. How many 3-4 NTs are actually out there? Probably not many. How many OLBs can be a DE/OLB depending on whether they have to guard the run, rush the passer, or cover someone? Not many. Those are the two positions that make the scheme work as it should, but there isn't anywhere close to .5 of those players per team.

 

The other thing is that when you don't have the personnel to run a 3-4, you get killed moreso than with a 4-3.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Kudos. The original post is well thought out and well written.

 

One of the simple and accurate observations one can make contrasting the 3-4 and the 4-3 is that generally it takes bigger players at all front 7 positions to play the 3-4. As has been pointed out it's not easy to find the players to fit this scheme.

 

In this year's draft there were only two prototype 3-4 nose tackles, B.J. Raji and Ron Brace (oddly enough college teammates in a 4-3). The remainder of the defensive tackles in the draft were quick penetrating types. By virtue of already having a wide body in Ryan Pickett, Green Bay has the luxury of moving Raji to defensive end because in the 3-4, size is needed at defensive end too. Similarly the Steelers drafted Ziggy Hood, a college defensive tackle who they are switching to defensive end. He's 295 pounds which is small for the nose but has the skills to play end in a 3-4.

 

The one big bruising defensive end this year, Tyson Jackson went much higher than most predicted because he was virtually the only 3-4 type end available, even though he played his college career as a 4-3 end. I was much higher on Hood and Jackson than most people here. I thought that both of them would be great additions to our 4-3, at their college positions.

 

From the standpoint of player acquisition, the one position where it might be advantageous to run a 3-4 scheme is at outside linebacker. There are many good small defensive ends/big linebackers from college that project to these positions. Many college defensive ends end up as 3-4 outside linebackers.

 

Final thought. I always thought it ironic that Bruce Smith played his entire career in a 3-4 when he was actually much better suited for a 4-3. And Reggie White played his whole career in a 4-3 when he was better suited to a 3-4. I guess the truly great ones transcend positions.

[silvermike]

What's key about the basic 3-4 is you assign the six gaps: both sides of the center, outside both guards, outside both tackles, to just three players. Basically, you want your three down linemen to stop the run and occupy the offensive line, and let everybody else make plays. And to do that, you don't just need big guys who are strong enough to withstand a double team, you need guys with enough smarts to read plays and enough footspeed to actually get there in time. There's a reason why Bill Parcells came up with the planet theory: there are only so many guys on the planet with the speed, strength, size, and smarts to play defensive line in a 3-4, so take one every time you have a chance.

 

When it's run well, with great linemen, you have eight guys making plays all over the place, and thus the sacks, picks, and stuffs start adding up. Linebackers do help stop the run, but if you rely on LBs to make the majority of your running stuffs, your 3-4 is going to suffer. The 4-e spreads that responsibility around 4 guys, leaving a lot more options.

[Thoner7]

There are more players that fit the 3-4 role than 4-3. Look at the pash rusher in each D. Either a OLB or DE on the right side. in a 4-3 you need a guy like Peppers/M. Williams. Those guys are no where to be found. 6-7, 300 pounds, run a 4.6 something. You can get away with a guy like Schobel and all but we dont that great a pass rush. Now look at the 3-4 rusher. James harrison is 6 foot, 240. There are tons of guys like that on every NFL roster. Guys like Joey Porter are great athletes but dont have the size, there just are not as many players as athletic as a Porter and 6-6 280+. As for the NT in a 3-4, yea there are not many 350lb humans, but the NT is asked to anchor in one spot and take up blockers. The best ones can move but movment in not as important as strength. a 350 pound man will be much stronger than they are fast. as for a 3-4 DE, they need to be 300+ pounds, strong, but not as fast or quick. the 4-3 asks the D lineman to be best and fast and quick and strong. There are guys liek that but a whole lot less than just big guys who are strong with decent feet.

[Fingon]

There are more players that fit the 3-4 role than 4-3. Look at the pash rusher in each D. Either a OLB or DE on the right side. in a 4-3 you need a guy like Peppers/M. Williams. Those guys are no where to be found. 6-7, 300 pounds, run a 4.6 something. You can get away with a guy like Schobel and all but we dont that great a pass rush. Now look at the 3-4 rusher. James harrison is 6 foot, 240. There are tons of guys like that on every NFL roster. Guys like Joey Porter are great athletes but dont have the size, there just are not as many players as athletic as a Porter and 6-6 280+. As for the NT in a 3-4, yea there are not many 350lb humans, but the NT is asked to anchor in one spot and take up blockers. The best ones can move but movment in not as important as strength. a 350 pound man will be much stronger than they are fast. as for a 3-4 DE, they need to be 300+ pounds, strong, but not as fast or quick. the 4-3 asks the D lineman to be best and fast and quick and strong. There are guys liek that but a whole lot less than just big guys who are strong with decent feet.

Stopped reading after that. That statement is COMPLETELY false. How many college teams run a 3-4? Exactly.

[billsfan89]

There are more players that fit the 3-4 role than 4-3. Look at the pash rusher in each D. Either a OLB or DE on the right side. in a 4-3 you need a guy like Peppers/M. Williams. Those guys are no where to be found. 6-7, 300 pounds, run a 4.6 something. You can get away with a guy like Schobel and all but we dont that great a pass rush. Now look at the 3-4 rusher. James harrison is 6 foot, 240. There are tons of guys like that on every NFL roster. Guys like Joey Porter are great athletes but dont have the size, there just are not as many players as athletic as a Porter and 6-6 280+. As for the NT in a 3-4, yea there are not many 350lb humans, but the NT is asked to anchor in one spot and take up blockers. The best ones can move but movment in not as important as strength. a 350 pound man will be much stronger than they are fast. as for a 3-4 DE, they need to be 300+ pounds, strong, but not as fast or quick. the 4-3 asks the D lineman to be best and fast and quick and strong. There are guys liek that but a whole lot less than just big guys who are strong with decent feet.

 

I disagree in the 3-4 its harder to get a big NT to clog up the middle and get bigger MLB's. Its also harder to get those Joey Porter type OLB's who can blitz effectively. In a 4-3 you can get away with OLB's who are primarily run defenders and coverage guys.

 

I agree with you though that the DE's in the 4-3 are primarily used for pass rush and run support. In the 4-3 you count on you two DE's to get at least two thirds of your pass rush. But while the DE's are harder to get in a 4-3 the rest of the Defense is easier to acquire. So I think wholistically a 3-4 is harder to put in place than a 4-3.

[spartacus]

I think you are pretty much right in saying that 13 team scannot run the 3-4 because there isn't enough personnel to go around. One reason the 3-4 defenses (especially those that we play) look so good is because they have superior talent. When you have that, it doesn't matter what scheme you play.

 

The 3-4 in its current iteration is supposed to be flexible enough to use the same personnel to do pretty much everything, with the exception of needing to add another DB against 3-wide sets. To be able to this, you need players that can do many things well, which is hard to find. How many 3-4 NTs are actually out there? Probably not many. How many OLBs can be a DE/OLB depending on whether they have to guard the run, rush the passer, or cover someone? Not many. Those are the two positions that make the scheme work as it should, but there isn't anywhere close to .5 of those players per team.

 

The other thing is that when you don't have the personnel to run a 3-4, you get killed moreso than with a 4-3.

 

It helps to have a front office that can evaluate, identify and acquire talent.

 

Whatever defense the Bills play, they are at a severe disadvantage to most teams right off the bat.

 

to compound problems, the Bills are committed to a weak, small, passive defense designed to keep games close - which will work against crappy offenses - but not so much against good teams.

 

crappy players in a crappy scheme with bad coaching does not get you to the playoffs.

[Thurman#1]

There are more players that fit the 3-4 role than 4-3. Look at the pash rusher in each D. Either a OLB or DE on the right side. in a 4-3 you need a guy like Peppers/M. Williams. Those guys are no where to be found. 6-7, 300 pounds, run a 4.6 something. You can get away with a guy like Schobel and all but we dont that great a pass rush. Now look at the 3-4 rusher. James harrison is 6 foot, 240. There are tons of guys like that on every NFL roster. Guys like Joey Porter are great athletes but dont have the size, there just are not as many players as athletic as a Porter and 6-6 280+. As for the NT in a 3-4, yea there are not many 350lb humans, but the NT is asked to anchor in one spot and take up blockers. The best ones can move but movment in not as important as strength. a 350 pound man will be much stronger than they are fast. as for a 3-4 DE, they need to be 300+ pounds, strong, but not as fast or quick. the 4-3 asks the D lineman to be best and fast and quick and strong. There are guys liek that but a whole lot less than just big guys who are strong with decent feet.

 

 

 

About DEs, you seem to be saying that the 4 - 3 requires 300 pounders and the 3 - 4 requires them to be bigger than that. That would mean that under 300 is pretty much useless at DE. The opposite is true. Regardless of defensive scheme, guys over or even at 300 pounds at DE are extremely rare.

 

The average 4 - 3 DE is somewhere between 240 and 270 and the average 3 - 4 DE is somewhere between 275 and 295.

 

And yeah, it's easier to find guys who fit the physical template of a 3 - 4 rush LB, but they have to be freakily talented, because they are the ones who provide the major rush in that D. The other guys on the line are generally too big to get to the QB on a regular basis. So, yeah, you can find guys who, like Harrison are 6 foot, 240, but how many of those guys are freakily athletic enough to get 10 sacks or so a year, fast enough to run around people and strong enough to run through blocks. Look around the league, there are very very few. Yeah, you can find lots of guys built like Harrison. How many of them play like Harrison?

 

I don't understand exactly what you were saying about Porter. It's not clear if you know that he is 6'3" 255, but that's what he is.

[silvermike]

There are more players that fit the 3-4 role than 4-3. Look at the pash rusher in each D. Either a OLB or DE on the right side. in a 4-3 you need a guy like Peppers/M. Williams. Those guys are no where to be found. 6-7, 300 pounds, run a 4.6 something. You can get away with a guy like Schobel and all but we dont that great a pass rush. Now look at the 3-4 rusher. James harrison is 6 foot, 240. There are tons of guys like that on every NFL roster. Guys like Joey Porter are great athletes but dont have the size, there just are not as many players as athletic as a Porter and 6-6 280+. As for the NT in a 3-4, yea there are not many 350lb humans, but the NT is asked to anchor in one spot and take up blockers. The best ones can move but movment in not as important as strength. a 350 pound man will be much stronger than they are fast. as for a 3-4 DE, they need to be 300+ pounds, strong, but not as fast or quick. the 4-3 asks the D lineman to be best and fast and quick and strong. There are guys liek that but a whole lot less than just big guys who are strong with decent feet.

 

Look, it all comes down to this: In the 3-4, you're asking three defensive linemen to do they same job as four in the 4-3. That's why it's harder to staff. You can get more plays from mediocre linebackers in a 3-4 than from mediocre DEs in a 4-3, but only if you have excellent DLs. It's why Bill Parcells almost never gives up a chance to draft a lineman: his philosphy is that there are very, very few guys with the size and speed to play on the line (on either side of the ball).

[Orton's Arm]

I would like to think that being the only team in the division playing a 4-3 defense would serve to be a big advantage this season.

It sure proved to be a big advantage last season. Oh, wait . . . never mind.

[billsfan89]

Look, it all comes down to this: In the 3-4, you're asking three defensive linemen to do they same job as four in the 4-3. That's why it's harder to staff. You can get more plays from mediocre linebackers in a 3-4 than from mediocre DEs in a 4-3, but only if you have excellent DLs. It's why Bill Parcells almost never gives up a chance to draft a lineman: his philosphy is that there are very, very few guys with the size and speed to play on the line (on either side of the ball).

 

The building with the Defensive and Offensive line strategy is one of the many reasons why Parcells knows how to build a team. I believe that 75% of the time the game is won by the Line play. And Parcells knows that. Look at the way he built Miami he drafted Long and signed Smiley last year than this year he signed Jake Groove. He also signed Ferguson along the defensive line last year and signed back Jason Taylor this year.

 

Miami is a team that has their lines set and once they address the skill positions in next years draft and free agency they will be a force in the division. And if Henne is a good QB they might be building to a SuperBowl. BUT if top 3-4 talent becomes less and less available than it might be harder for him to restock that team with talent.