Anyone Agree with Tim Graham on This?

[toddgurley]

It takes time and effort to analyze game film. It is simple to look up a number. When people talk about the "greatest of all-time" at whatever position, but only use stats to make their point, it just proves that they don't know what they are talking about.

 

As you said...simple things for simple minds.

 

 

AGREE IT TAKES TIME TO REVIEW FILM, so would nt you trust and company (STATS, INC) and a professional (KC JOYNER) who does this for a living?

 

and its not like anyone else is showing us a STAT that says different. The 2 numbers i have read about are 12 sacks (says kc joyner) and 11.5 (says STATS, INC)

 

Which are pretty similar if you ask me?

[thebandit27]

AGREE IT TAKES TIME TO REVIEW FILM, so would nt you trust and company (STATS, INC) and a professional (KC JOYNER) who does this for a living?

 

and its not like anyone else is showing us a STAT that says different. The 2 numbers i have read about are 12 sacks (says kc joyner) and 11.5 (says STATS, INC)

 

Which are pretty similar if you ask me?

 

you understand, of course, the irony of asking why people don't trust statisticians that get paid while you yourself downplay peters' ability and buck the professional opinions of those who get paid to evaluate it, right?

[Guest dog14787]

If you have to ask the question (and phrase it in a completely leading way) then I don't think you would be able to understand the answer. But, let's just say I try to make nonjudgmental and relatively unbiased observations and stay free of jumping to conclusions about things which I have no information about (where did you get that TE info?). But it is clear you don't know how to do that, dog. Your world sees to be very black and white, and quite simplistic.

 

 

Funny Dean, are you capable of drawing your own conclusions or are you just following Tim Grahams every word like a little puppy dog following his master.

 

You didn't answer my question and other posters have done a good job explaining in black and white why JP played poorly and was bad for the team. Its a what have you done for me lately world and what part of that is so hard to understand. Are we supposed to go back a year or two and judge him then and on what, what did we ever accomplish with Jason Peters, not a damn thing.

[toddgurley]

Hahaha, I don't understand how you can justify that "what didn't happen, should have happened". And because it should have happened you are therefore correct.

 

How does that logic work? I mean in reality, this kind of argument is rarely productive. But it is so absurd I have to comment. I mean, we aren't even talking about a game in which the Bills missed a last minute field goal when they were down by 2, or a game in which Edwards threw an interception in the end zone with 30 seconds left down by 6. We are talking about a game in which the Bills legitimately were shut down. I mean, hahaha, that could have arguably been the worst game we played all season and we should have won it? I mean, sh--, if we should have won that game, we should have gone 16-0.

 

 

ok I hear what your saying. we lost 13-0 so how could it be that I think we should have won. Just re-watch the game. We should have scored points before the half, but duke preston decided to fight on the last play before the half, instead of lining up for the next play-when we were inside the red zone (the 9 yard line to be exact). At that point in the game, the score was 3-0 NE. Then to start the 2nd half, we were driving in NE territory and TRENT EDWARDS got sacked by Mike Vrabel and fumbled. Pats went down field and scored a TD off that Turnover.

 

Play By Play Box: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?g...02&period=3

BOX SCORE: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=281228002

 

Also check out the box score, we ran all over them. Freddy Jackson 136 yards on 27 carries. SO I DO DISAGREE WITH YOU THAT WE WERE SHUT DOWN OFFENSIVELY-

 

and for the worst game we played, I woUld say it was the 10-3 loss AT HOME TO SF, which was 2nd to the 16-3 loss to Miami in Toronto. In the NE game the wind made it impossible to pass. In the 2 games i just mentioned, we did not have to wind excuse.

 

and its ok if you disagree, I just felt pretty strongly that we let that one get away

 

HOW ABOUT THIS BUD: WE SHOULD HAVE WON VS THE JETS (INFAMOUS JP LOSERMAN FUMBLE) YOU AGREE WITH THAT THEN? LOL

[thebandit27]

so you dont think we should have won the last game of the season vs NE? The one where Freddy Jackson ran all over them, and we still got shut out. Watch the game again, we should have beaten them. Which would have made us 3-0 in games Jason Peters did not play in. What dont you understand about that?

 

Really?

 

I was there as well, and I believe at no point was Buffalo in a position to win that game.

 

New England played the entire game with a 6th offensive lineman, and Buffalo--no matter what they did to adjust--couldn't stop them.

 

On defense, New England was content to let Buffalo run the ball between the 30's and then stuff them when it mattered; at the time I believed that this was a Belichick tactic (not simply to allow Buffalo to run at will, but certainly to play the "bend but don't break" style) predicated on their defense's belief that they could stop Buffalo at will, and was aimed at keeping their o-line fresh, since they only threw 8 passes that game...so far my belief hasn't changed.

 

Also, in 2007, Buffalo was 0-2 in games in which Peters didn't play, and so far as I can tell the only discernable difference is that those teams (Ten and Phi) to whom they lost had a combined record of 18-14 and defensive rankings of 5th (Ten) and 10th (Phi), as opposed to the 12-20 mark posted by the 2008 Broncos/Seahawks, who boasted defensive rankings of 29th and 30th.

[toddgurley]

you understand, of course, the irony of asking why people don't trust statisticians that get paid while you yourself downplay peters' ability and buck the professional opinions of those who get paid to evaluate it, right?

 

 

number s dont lie, but people do. I do agree that numbers can be misleading, but 5.5 sacks given up on ONE-ON-ONE pass protection schemes does not make you an ELITE LT or justify the highest paid contract to an O-LINEMAN. Would you agree with that?

 

Review post #67 or #68, his one on one sacks given up alone would have placed him at 19th among LT

[toddgurley]

quoted by='thebandit27' date='Jun 29 2009, 03:13 PM' post='1465330']

"I was there as well, and I believe at no point was Buffalo in a position to win that game."

 

"New England played the entire game with a 6th offensive lineman, and Buffalo--no matter what they did to adjust--couldn't stop them."

 

What? we could stop them. ha ha.

 

Total Yards from that game

NE: 241

Buf: 276

 

Passing yards

NE: 73

Buf:115

 

Rushing Yards

NE:168

Buf: 161

 

Yards per attempt Running

NE: 3.6

Buf: 4.6

 

Turnovers

NE: 0

Buf: 1

 

You still wanna stick to that past statement?

 

we were once again out coached by NE, not outplayed. Perfect example during that game, Bellicheat brings his offense out and lines up like he is going for it on 4th and long deep in his own end. Causing Mauron (jauron) to burn a time out when there was no way in hell they were going for it.

 

Do you remember that stupid play? We will always have a tough time beating NE as long as Bellicheat is their coach and Mauron is ours

[The Dean]

number s dont lie, but people do. I do agree that numbers can be misleading, but 5.5 sacks given up on ONE-ON-ONE pass protection schemes does not make you an ELITE LT or justify the highest paid contract to an O-LINEMAN. Would you agree with that?

 

Review post #67 or #68, his one on one sacks given up alone would have placed him at 19th among LT

 

 

Quick question (or two): Are you 13 years old, or just immature? Did you see Tim's post noting other GREAT LTs have given up as many as 10 sacks in seasons, as well?

 

It's obvious you have a little tiny hard-on for Peters, and you feel the need to bash him with the one negative number you can find. Yet you still can't tell us what constitutes a sack. People who parrott stats, yet have no idea how those stats are collected are pretty close to the top of the "idiot club" IMO.

 

You have yet to even try to provide an analysis for why he may not have been at his best, last year, or why his sack stat may have been impacted by other factors. You have also failed to provide a look at aspects of playing LT other than the sack stat. Of course, that would take intelligence, analytical skill, objectivity, etc. SOME basis of actually understanding the game.

 

We get it, you think Peters sucks, and you want everyone else to think so, too. You should feel happy that dog agrees with you.

[toddgurley]

Quick question (or two): Are you 13 years old, or just immature? Did you see Tim's post noting other GREAT LTs have given up as many as 10 sacks in seasons, as well?

 

It's obvious you have a little tiny hard-on for Peters, and you feel the need to bash him with the one negative number you can find. Yet you still can't tell us what constitutes a sack. People who parrott stats, yet have no idea how those stats are collected are pretty close to the top of the "idiot club" IMO.

 

You have yet to even try to provide an analysis for why he may not have been at his best, last year, or why his sack stat may have been impacted by other factors. You have also failed to provide a look at aspects of playing LT other than the sack stat. Of course, that would take intelligence, analytical skill, objectivity, etc. SOME basis of actually understanding the game.

 

We get it, you think Peters sucks, and you want everyone else to think so, too. You should feel happy that dog agrees with you.

 

 

ha ha, I do not hate Peters. I am however happy he is gone because i question his work ethic, attitude and integrity. I do think that our interior o-line is much improved and will be good for years to come.

 

But obviously there are questions about both our Tackles? Would i want the jason peters from 2 or 3 years ago, before he thought he was the man? Sure.

 

But I DO NOT WANT THE CURRENT JASON PETERS because of reasons listed above (work ethic, integrity, and attitude). So i do not hate him to clarify for you.

 

and by the way, most Bills fan are happy he is gone. We may have questions about the o-line, but in general We are happy he is gone because WE ONLY WANT PLAYERS WHO WANT TO BE HERE

[thebandit27]

quoted by='thebandit27' date='Jun 29 2009, 03:13 PM' post='1465330']

"I was there as well, and I believe at no point was Buffalo in a position to win that game."

 

"New England played the entire game with a 6th offensive lineman, and Buffalo--no matter what they did to adjust--couldn't stop them."

 

What? we could stop them. ha ha.

 

Total Yards from that game

NE: 241

Buf: 276

 

Passing yards

NE: 73

Buf:115

 

Rushing Yards

NE:168

Buf: 161

 

Yards per attempt Running

NE: 3.6

Buf: 4.6

 

Turnovers

NE: 0

Buf: 1

 

You still wanna stick to that past statement?

 

we were once again out coached by NE, not outplayed. Perfect example during that game, Bellicheat brings his offense out and lines up like he is going for it on 4th and long deep in his own end. Causing Mauron (jauron) to burn a time out when there was no way in hell they were going for it.

 

Do you remember that stupid play? We will always have a tough time beating NE as long as Bellicheat is their coach and Mauron is ours

 

Um, yeah dude. Actually, I do.

 

The stat game can work in both directions bro:

 

- New England was 3/3 on 4th down, Buffalo was 0/2

- All 6 of Cassel's completions went for 1st downs, vs. 5 of Edwards' 14 completions

- New England scored 10 points in 2 possessions inside Buffalo's 10, while Buffalo failed to get inside New England's 10 yd line the whole game.

- New England made 2 of 3 field goals, while Buffalo missed it's only try

 

What part of that makes you think that Buffalo could stop New England when it mattered?

 

As you said, #s don't lie. However, since I'm really intrigued as to how you came up with the idea that Buffalo "should have beaten" New England, please tell me: other than out-gaining them by 35 yards, what makes you think that Buffalo should've won that game?

[Lori]

Wait. You mean they don't get points for yardage, bandit? Crap, I've been doing the fantasy-football thing for too long.

[Mickey]

Couldn't agree more. I don't recall any of those who now swear that Peters sucks calling for him to be benched in '07 or '08. Even the Bills recognized his value, eventually offering big bucks and to drop his existing contract. Turned out that he got even more from the Eagles so the Bills were a year late and quite a few dollars short in the end. Rudely and unprofessionally calling Peters out in public as Brandon did the day before camp opened probably didn't help but none of that matters anymore. There is no question the Bills themselves thought very highly of him and there is no question that around the league, Peters commands respect for what he can do on the field.

 

Really, the only doubts anywhere about his talent come from the people hereabouts ranting and blathering with page after page of tedious analysis supposedly proving that Peters sucks. Apparently what they know sitting behind their computers working for the Dunder Mifflins of the world outweighs, in their minds, what actual NFL coaches and front office people know.

 

Tim got it right when he called it sour grapes. The fact that the grapes are this sour is proof that despite all their ranting, even his detractors know how good he is. People don't get upset when a second rate talent leaves.

[The_Philster]

Couldn't agree more. I don't recall any of those who now swear that Peters sucks calling for him to be benched in '07 or '08.

you mean '06 and '07...people were definitely suggesting he get benched in 08...when he sucked because he didn't try

[Mickey]

ha ha, I do not hate Peters. I am however happy he is gone because i question his work ethic, attitude and integrity. I do think that our interior o-line is much improved and will be good for years to come.

 

But obviously there are questions about both our Tackles? Would i want the jason peters from 2 or 3 years ago, before he thought he was the man? Sure.

 

But I DO NOT WANT THE CURRENT JASON PETERS because of reasons listed above (work ethic, integrity, and attitude). So i do not hate him to clarify for you.

 

and by the way, most Bills fan are happy he is gone. We may have questions about the o-line, but in general We are happy he is gone because WE ONLY WANT PLAYERS WHO WANT TO BE HERE

Wow, he must have been even more talented than I thought. Imagine that, being able to go from an undrafted FA to the pro bowl and having a lousy work ethic and attitude to boot. Makes total sense so I see, you don't really hate him. You just think he is stupid, lazy, selfish and lacks integrity. But other than that, you just love the big guy.

[The_Philster]

Wow, he must have been even more talented than I thought. Imagine that, being able to go from an undrafted FA to the pro bowl and having a lousy work ethic and attitude to boot. Makes total sense so I see, you don't really hate him. You just think he is stupid, lazy, selfish and lacks integrity. But other than that, you just love the big guy.

I'm pretty sure toddgurley was referring to the Peters of 2008...the one who left at the end of the 2007 season and didn't show up until the eve of the 2008 opener and proceeded to sleep walk through most of the season

[toddgurley]

I'm pretty sure toddgurley was referring to the Peters of 2008...the one who left at the end of the 2007 season and didn't show up until the eve of the 2008 opener and proceeded to sleep walk through most of the season

 

 

thanks Phillster, atleast someone has a clue.

[toddgurley]

I think comparing Losman to Jason Peters is extremely misleading for a variety of reasons not worth mentioning.

 

I find it so difficult to comprehend how so many well educated football fans on this board (and a few who have no clue what they are talking about) cannot keep themselves from becoming totally subjective on the Jason Peters front. I would be really curious to know how our fans would be judging the Peters trade right now if the contract dispute did not happen, but Peters still performed the same. Would people be calling for his head? Saying he sucks? I doubt it.

 

Peters is an elite OT who took a step back last year because he was out of shape, lazy and looking to get out of Buffalo. And I totally agree with those who claim that is a lousy attitude. But how the hell does that make his talent questionable? Yea he gave up a good amount of sacks. Randy Moss only caught 49 passes in 2006 and everyone claimed he was toast, mainly due to his attitude. Obviously, that wasn't true.

 

All I am saying is, stay objective. Don't use statistics like "sacks allowed against rookies" to vindicate your hatred for a guy with a lousy attitude. I have no problem with those who say Peters was a dickhead. I think he had every right to demand more money, but at the same time, he went about the process terribly. But I would put a ton of money down on him making the pro bowl a few times over the next couple years. Poor attitude? Yea. Talented? I'm sorry to break the news, but HE IS VERY GOOD.

 

 

I think when he said JP in his post he was talking about Jason Peters (JP) not J.P. Losman-but i did not go back and look at the old posts.

[VJ91]

.....My Take

I know we talked about this before and my thread will probably get merged, but I totally got to disagree with Tim. I think you will also agree that the Bills should have been 3-0 with Peters not in the lineup (should have beat N.E. just once again got out coached by Bellicheat)

 

First, I think that the POINT OF ATTACK statistic by KC joyner to be a mis-leading STAT. In fact I hate the P-O-A statistic, I believe it an irrelevant and somewhat doctored stat, you may disagree and that s fine.

 

2nd, I am POSITIVE that Jason Peters was NOT our best o-lineman last year. (just look how the line did when he did not play) I would say that award would have went to Brad Butler, with Langston Walker finishing a close 2nd. I mean, remember how Peters got abused by Joey Porter? Two Years ago Peters was the man, but not this past year.

 

And then there is always that SACK stat. Like it or not, Peters yielded 11.5 sacks last year. That was the most of any Tackle in the league, weather you believe in that stat or not. There is no doubt Jason Peters should NOT HAVE MADE THE PRO BOWL?

 

Thats my take guys, let me know if you agree or think that I am way off?

 

GO BILLS-

 

You are way off. Jason Peters is one of the elite left tackles in the NFL today. The Bills decided not to pay him the money he commanded. No shock there. The Bills won't pay any elite athlete top money in today's NFL. But the Eagles did end up paying him his money, and now he will anchor their line for years, while continuing to make the Pro Bowl regularly.

 

Now these two road graders the Bills drafted look really good, and I'm happy they drafted them. And I know the Bills used the Peters draft pick to draft the first one, Wood. So maybe the trade will work out well for both teams. But I will never back off from my original stance months ago that the Bills should have paid their Pro Bowl left tackle his money, end of story.

 

Time will tell who is right and wrong. Now I am just rooting for Wood and Levitre to have terrific rookie seasons, and for Walker to stay healthy and lose a few pounds so he can do a good job filling in for Peters.

[toddgurley]

You are way off. Jason Peters is one of the elite left tackles in the NFL today. The Bills decided not to pay him the money he commanded. No shock there. The Bills won't pay any elite athlete top money in today's NFL. But the Eagles did end up paying him his money, and now he will anchor their line for years, while continuing to make the Pro Bowl regularly.

 

Now these two road graders the Bills drafted look really good, and I'm happy they drafted them. And I know the Bills used the Peters draft pick to draft the first one, Wood. So maybe the trade will work out well for both teams. But I will never back off from my original stance months ago that the Bills should have paid their Pro Bowl left tackle his money, end of story.

 

Time will tell who is right and wrong. Now I am just rooting for Wood and Levitre to have terrific rookie seasons, and for Walker to stay healthy and lose a few pounds so he can do a good job filling in for Peters.

 

 

 

hey vj91 just so you know, Russ offered Jason Peters the Richest/largest contract in team history this past offseason before we traded him, check post #82 by Lori, better yet here it is.

 

"There's the rub. Remember what Brandon said:

"... we offered Jason an enormous contract – the largest contract in Bills history – and he had no interest in it. None."

 

"We felt very strongly that Jason was not going to come back to camp, was not going to participate, and we were going to be in the same situation (as last year)."

 

I think most of us agree that there was very little chance of a deal getting done".

 

 

just an FYI, we did try

[Guest dog14787]

I think when he said JP in his post he was talking about Jason Peters (JP) not J.P. Losman-but i did not go back and look at the old posts.

 

 

I'm not sure were Losman came from.