billsfan89 Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 Just a disclaimer this isn't a Peters thread this is more of a thread looking at how the O-line was handled after the deal was done. Eric Wood and Andy Levitre were added in response to the Dockery cutting and the Trade of Peters. Brad Butler was shifted to Right tackle in order to move Walker to Peters old spot. Before the Peters trade we signed Hangartner to fill out the Center spot. So our O-line is currently projected to be from left to right (LT) Langston Walker (LG) Andy Levitre (Center) Hangartner (RG) Eric Wood (RT) Brad Butler. Four of those guys are really young Hangartner is 27, Butler is 26 (by seasons end he will be 26) and Wood and Levitre are both rookies. These guys once give two seasons to gel will all still be under 30. None of those guys will cost any where near what Peters would have. So better for the cap in the long run to keep these guys with the Bills. These guys remind me of the way the Giants offensive line was built about four years ago. They drafted a bunch of guards and centers kept them together and added Kareem McKenzie to round out the line. The LT's the Giants have had in recent years haven't been great just solid guys who can hold down the spot; Petitgout was a solid guy but not really a top five guy at his best he was just outside the top ten LT's in the league. David Diehl isn't a top ten LT but he is a solid guy who plays well with the rest of his offensive line and run blocks very well and pass blocks well enough. My point is if the Bills through the draft or free agency can find a solid LT they can keep the rest of the line in tact and build a unit much like the Giants O-line. The Peters trade may have built this line for long term success.
DIE HARD 1967 Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 I would say there is a good chance the deal will work out well for us. The overall talent on the OL never played very well the last 3 years and it was time to do something. Granted, quality LT's are difficult to find but I think the overall toughness has improved
abqmarko Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 Just a disclaimer this isn't a Peters thread this is more of a thread looking at how the O-line was handled after the deal was done. Eric Wood and Andy Levitre were added in response to the Dockery cutting and the Trade of Peters. Brad Butler was shifted to Right tackle in order to move Walker to Peters old spot. Before the Peters trade we signed Hangartner to fill out the Center spot. So our O-line is currently projected to be from left to right (LT) Langston Walker (LG) Andy Levitre (Center) Hangartner (RG) Eric Wood (RT) Brad Butler. Four of those guys are really young Hangartner is 27, Butler is 26 (by seasons end he will be 26) and Wood and Levitre are both rookies. These guys once give two seasons to gel will all still be under 30. None of those guys will cost any where near what Peters would have. So better for the cap in the long run to keep these guys with the Bills. These guys remind me of the way the Giants offensive line was built about four years ago. They drafted a bunch of guards and centers kept them together and added Kareem McKenzie to round out the line. The LT's the Giants have had in recent years haven't been great just solid guys who can hold down the spot; Petitgout was a solid guy but not really a top five guy at his best he was just outside the top ten LT's in the league. David Diehl isn't a top ten LT but he is a solid guy who plays well with the rest of his offensive line and run blocks very well and pass blocks well enough. My point is if the Bills through the draft or free agency can find a solid LT they can keep the rest of the line in tact and build a unit much like the Giants O-line. The Peters trade may have built this line for long term success. My opinion 08 LT Peters 09 Walker - advantage Peters 08 RT Walker 09 Butler- slight advantage Walker-I do think Butler will be good (more upside than Walker) he's very tall 606 for a OG and played Tackle in college. 08 OG Dockery 09 Wood- slight advantage Wood I really think Woods a blue Chip talent with tremendous upside and will give the Bills a needed tough nasty side. 08 OG Butler 09 Levitre- advantage even- I think Butler would be a better tackle, most of the top OG's are 605 and under, Levitre is the top rated college OG and like Wood brings a needed nasty blue collar attitude and higher upside than Butler at the OG spot. 08 C Fowler/Preston 09 Hangartner- huge advantage Hangartner-another tough, blue collar no nonsense player the Bills need. As a Bills fan this is a little optomistic but I feel the Bills have ALOT more upside in almost all of these positions. Peters was an underperforming OT that performed like a slightly above average starter last year, I dont see a huge drop off with Walker. The interior will be stronger and nastier, there was no real personality to the Oline the last several years other than an underperforming, dont care attitiude. I think we will see a change. It hinges alot on the development of the rookies but these guys SHOULD be able to transition well.
billsfan89 Posted June 25, 2009 Author Posted June 25, 2009 My opinion08 LT Peters 09 Walker - advantage Peters 08 RT Walker 09 Butler- slight advantage Walker-I do think Butler will be good (more upside than Walker) he's very tall 606 for a OG and played Tackle in college. 08 OG Dockery 09 Wood- slight advantage Wood I really think Woods a blue Chip talent with tremendous upside and will give the Bills a needed tough nasty side. 08 OG Butler 09 Levitre- advantage even- I think Butler would be a better tackle, most of the top OG's are 605 and under, Levitre is the top rated college OG and like Wood brings a needed nasty blue collar attitude and higher upside than Butler at the OG spot. 08 C Fowler/Preston 09 Hangartner- huge advantage Hangartner-another tough, blue collar no nonsense player the Bills need. As a Bills fan this is a little optomistic but I feel the Bills have ALOT more upside in almost all of these positions. Peters was an underperforming OT that performed like a slightly above average starter last year, I dont see a huge drop off with Walker. The interior will be stronger and nastier, there was no real personality to the Oline the last several years other than an underperforming, dont care attitiude. I think we will see a change. It hinges alot on the development of the rookies but these guys SHOULD be able to transition well. I think that my key point is that next year these guys will have played with each other for a whole season they will be a huge improvement over what we had and they will only get better with more time. The only piece we need to get is a guy who can step in and be a long term solution at LT. Walker is our guy this year for better or worse. But after this year I hope Ralph and Russ tries to pick up a solid guy with upside who can slide in and hold down that spot respectably via draft or free agency. Before someone points it out I know we traded our LT who is what I described.
offde-fence Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 If Walker can hold his own, then the rest of the line looks to have improved, man by man. What remains to be seen is whether or not time together will play a critical factor with them. I don't really know if they can perform to the level necessary to give Edwards time to throw consistently, but I suspect they'll be a much better running line from the get go. There were recently a few articles about the line, and about Edwards - particularly how he handled getting hit last year. The F.O. is riding on this year, so I have to believe, until they show otherwise, that they have a good plan to, perhaps keep it simple, and let their strengths shine.
billsfan89 Posted June 25, 2009 Author Posted June 25, 2009 If Walker can hold his own, then the rest of the line looks to have improved, man by man. What remains to be seen is whether or not time together will play a critical factor with them. I don't really know if they can perform to the level necessary to give Edwards time to throw consistently, but I suspect they'll be a much better running line from the get go. There were recently a few articles about the line, and about Edwards - particularly how he handled getting hit last year. The F.O. is riding on this year, so I have to believe, until they show otherwise, that they have a good plan to, perhaps keep it simple, and let their strengths shine. I think that is why they are going with the no huddle. My idea is that the coaching staff hopes that blitzing the line will be harder when the offense is going no huddle. And if you blitz the line than it opens up our wide receivers and Trent can see it better.
H2o Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 Yes. A closer unit will work better together. None of these guys are committed more to themselves than they are to the team, yet.
John from Riverside Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 I think L. Walker is going to get beat every now and then and when he does the board is going to explode......but I also think that magically our running game overall is going to look much better and for some reason we cannot explain we will score more touchdowns running the ball in the end zone..... it will be because of the aquisition of TO of course... At least that is what people will say till TO leaves next year and we are still doing it.
zazie Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 Just a disclaimer this isn't a Peters thread this is more of a thread looking at how the O-line was handled after the deal was done. Eric Wood and Andy Levitre were added in response to the Dockery cutting and the Trade of Peters. Brad Butler was shifted to Right tackle in order to move Walker to Peters old spot. Before the Peters trade we signed Hangartner to fill out the Center spot. So our O-line is currently projected to be from left to right (LT) Langston Walker (LG) Andy Levitre (Center) Hangartner (RG) Eric Wood (RT) Brad Butler. Four of those guys are really young Hangartner is 27, Butler is 26 (by seasons end he will be 26) and Wood and Levitre are both rookies. These guys once give two seasons to gel will all still be under 30. None of those guys will cost any where near what Peters would have. So better for the cap in the long run to keep these guys with the Bills. These guys remind me of the way the Giants offensive line was built about four years ago. They drafted a bunch of guards and centers kept them together and added Kareem McKenzie to round out the line. The LT's the Giants have had in recent years haven't been great just solid guys who can hold down the spot; Petitgout was a solid guy but not really a top five guy at his best he was just outside the top ten LT's in the league. David Diehl isn't a top ten LT but he is a solid guy who plays well with the rest of his offensive line and run blocks very well and pass blocks well enough. My point is if the Bills through the draft or free agency can find a solid LT they can keep the rest of the line in tact and build a unit much like the Giants O-line. The Peters trade may have built this line for long term success. if D Bell can replace Walker as a starter sometime during the campaign and produce, the bills may have a young line that can be intact for many years. That would be sweet. For this year though I think Peters will be missed more than you may think; Walker just does not have LT physique.
VOR Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 My opinion08 LT Peters 09 Walker - advantage Peters 08 RT Walker 09 Butler- slight advantage Walker-I do think Butler will be good (more upside than Walker) he's very tall 606 for a OG and played Tackle in college. 08 OG Dockery 09 Wood- slight advantage Wood I really think Woods a blue Chip talent with tremendous upside and will give the Bills a needed tough nasty side. 08 OG Butler 09 Levitre- advantage even- I think Butler would be a better tackle, most of the top OG's are 605 and under, Levitre is the top rated college OG and like Wood brings a needed nasty blue collar attitude and higher upside than Butler at the OG spot. 08 C Fowler/Preston 09 Hangartner- huge advantage Hangartner-another tough, blue collar no nonsense player the Bills need. As a Bills fan this is a little optomistic but I feel the Bills have ALOT more upside in almost all of these positions. Peters was an underperforming OT that performed like a slightly above average starter last year, I dont see a huge drop off with Walker. The interior will be stronger and nastier, there was no real personality to the Oline the last several years other than an underperforming, dont care attitiude. I think we will see a change. It hinges alot on the development of the rookies but these guys SHOULD be able to transition well. I agree with everything except for 08 Peters being a slight advantage over 09 Walker. Maybe 07 Peters (being a large advantage), but not 08.
billsfan89 Posted June 25, 2009 Author Posted June 25, 2009 if D Bell can replace Walker as a starter sometime during the campaign and produce, the bills may have a young line that can be intact for many years. That would be sweet. For this year though I think Peters will be missed more than you may think; Walker just does not have LT physique. Thats the frustrating thing is unless Walker can at least be a average LT the line won't be even average for pass protection. I doubt that D Bell can step in this year maybe Kirk Chambers can step in and at least be average at that position. I hope that next year D Bell can become the long term answer at LT he has the build and raw skill he just needs to work on getting stronger and more sound mentally.
zazie Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 Thats the frustrating thing is unless Walker can at least be a average LT the line won't be even average for pass protection. I doubt that D Bell can step in this year maybe Kirk Chambers can step in and at least be average at that position. I hope that next year D Bell can become the long term answer at LT he has the build and raw skill he just needs to work on getting stronger and more sound mentally. If D Bell is as dedicated and serious (as an athlete, not a father!) as his father, he could be ready this year even.
billsfan89 Posted June 25, 2009 Author Posted June 25, 2009 If D Bell is as dedicated and serious (as an athlete, not a father!) as his father, he could be ready this year even. Maybe during the second half of this year at the earliest. I just don't think he can handle the pressure of stepping in at the most important position of the line at the beginning of the year. He still needs to get stronger and it won't be the best situation for him to take the job under too much pressure. If Walker fails throw him in and tell him no matter how bad he plays he will still be on the team next year.
Bill from NYC Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 My opinion08 LT Peters 09 Walker - advantage Peters 08 RT Walker 09 Butler- slight advantage Walker-I do think Butler will be good (more upside than Walker) he's very tall 606 for a OG and played Tackle in college. 08 OG Dockery 09 Wood- slight advantage Wood I really think Woods a blue Chip talent with tremendous upside and will give the Bills a needed tough nasty side. 08 OG Butler 09 Levitre- advantage even- I think Butler would be a better tackle, most of the top OG's are 605 and under, Levitre is the top rated college OG and like Wood brings a needed nasty blue collar attitude and higher upside than Butler at the OG spot. 08 C Fowler/Preston 09 Hangartner- huge advantage Hangartner-another tough, blue collar no nonsense player the Bills need. As a Bills fan this is a little optomistic but I feel the Bills have ALOT more upside in almost all of these positions. Peters was an underperforming OT that performed like a slightly above average starter last year, I dont see a huge drop off with Walker. The interior will be stronger and nastier, there was no real personality to the Oline the last several years other than an underperforming, dont care attitiude. I think we will see a change. It hinges alot on the development of the rookies but these guys SHOULD be able to transition well. I think that Levitre might be more suited to LG than Wood. It wouldn't surprise me if Levitre is better than Dockery before the season is over. Left tackle is a mess imo.
VOR Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 Left tackle is a mess imo. It has been for the past year.
Dr. Fong Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 I don't think we'll see the benefits this year, but long term I think a good core is taking shape.
billsfan89 Posted June 26, 2009 Author Posted June 26, 2009 Just as a reference point how each player on the Giants line was acquired. Right Guard- Chris Snee 34th pick in the 2004 draft by the Giants Left Guard- Rich Seubert Undrafted free agent by the Giants Center- Shaun O'Hara Free agent who was signed from Cleveland who played back up guard and center spot starting for 30 plus games (Sounds similar to our own Hangardner) Left Tackle- David Diehl Fifth round pick by the Giants started as a guard and was moved to LT Right Tackle- Kareem McKenzie drafted by the Jets in the third round signed with the Giants as the last piece to their O-line. Also note that the Giants spent a 2nd round pick this year on William Beaty a RT Three of these guys were drafted or discovered by the Giants. They spent one day one pick to form this line. We have a line that is looking a lot similar to the way this line was put in place. They played with each other for the last two seasons in their current form. Four of these guys have played with each other for over four seasons. So in four years they have only made one adjustment to their offensive line. If D Bell can fill in at LT either at the end of this year or next season we may have our selves a very good O-line forming. One that looks similar to this line. On a weird note 4 out of 5 of these guys are White same goes for our O-line its just weird thats all.
BillsVet Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 I don't think we'll see the benefits this year, but long term I think a good core is taking shape. Why should we expect to see results on the OL? Buffalo attempted the quick fix to build the OL through UFA (06-07) and it didn't work. They spent exactly zero picks on day one on OL. Now, they've essentially given up a huge contract in Peters for a first round pick with Wood. I really like Eric Wood, but finding quality starting guards is much easier than getting a top LT. Someone will say Peters stunk in 08, and while he didn't have his finest season, he won't fall off the table like some of the haters think. He was a tremendous run blocker, and Walker's strength isn't his mobility because he's about 30 pounds overweight. All in all, it is preposterous to believe changing both the tackle spots, which happen to be the two most difficult OL positions, while integrating a former backup and two rookie guards into the starting lineup is wishing upon a star.
VOR Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 Why should we expect to see results on the OL? Buffalo attempted the quick fix to build the OL through UFA (06-07) and it didn't work. They spent exactly zero picks on day one on OL. Now, they've essentially given up a huge contract in Peters for a first round pick with Wood. I really like Eric Wood, but finding quality starting guards is much easier than getting a top LT. Someone will say Peters stunk in 08, and while he didn't have his finest season, he won't fall off the table like some of the haters think. He was a tremendous run blocker, and Walker's strength isn't his mobility because he's about 30 pounds overweight. All in all, it is preposterous to believe changing both the tackle spots, which happen to be the two most difficult OL positions, while integrating a former backup and two rookie guards into the starting lineup is wishing upon a star. Your opinion has been duly noted.
Thurman#1 Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 Just a disclaimer this isn't a Peters thread this is more of a thread looking at how the O-line was handled after the deal was done. Eric Wood and Andy Levitre were added in response to the Dockery cutting and the Trade of Peters. Brad Butler was shifted to Right tackle in order to move Walker to Peters old spot. Before the Peters trade we signed Hangartner to fill out the Center spot. So our O-line is currently projected to be from left to right (LT) Langston Walker (LG) Andy Levitre (Center) Hangartner (RG) Eric Wood (RT) Brad Butler. Four of those guys are really young Hangartner is 27, Butler is 26 (by seasons end he will be 26) and Wood and Levitre are both rookies. These guys once give two seasons to gel will all still be under 30. None of those guys will cost any where near what Peters would have. So better for the cap in the long run to keep these guys with the Bills. These guys remind me of the way the Giants offensive line was built about four years ago. They drafted a bunch of guards and centers kept them together and added Kareem McKenzie to round out the line. The LT's the Giants have had in recent years haven't been great just solid guys who can hold down the spot; Petitgout was a solid guy but not really a top five guy at his best he was just outside the top ten LT's in the league. David Diehl isn't a top ten LT but he is a solid guy who plays well with the rest of his offensive line and run blocks very well and pass blocks well enough. My point is if the Bills through the draft or free agency can find a solid LT they can keep the rest of the line in tact and build a unit much like the Giants O-line. The Peters trade may have built this line for long term success. I'll keep in mind that you said this is not a Peters thread. So, did the trade build the line for long-term success? No, it wasn't the trade that did that. It was the Bills concentration on inner line positions in the draft (assuming that they are indeed built for long-term success) that did that. I have to figure that if they hadn't gotten the pick for Wood in a trade (but still had Peters), that they would have traded back a bit instead of picking up Maybin. There's a pretty good chance of that having happened, since they obviously DID make interior line a priority, which was an excellent move, long overdue. Having that extra pick made a difference, but if they had not made the trade, the draft would have fallen differently. They might have picked Mack at #11, for instance, or traded back trying to get Maybin later and/or Mac, or Wood if Mack was gone. And like it or not, the Peters trade weakened us at LT. You have to assume/hope that we will try to take care of that in FA or the draft next year, but that means that we will have to use those resources that we could otherwise have picked up an interior line guy with.
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